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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Ya honestly I probably am being a bit nice to Painwheel. And Dekillsage has been putting in hella work with Bella lately. I'll update the list.
 
Haha, funny that as soon as i start thinking that painwheel has finally made it to mid tier or higher, others are thinking that she is the worst... Sigh.


Painwheel is a lot better now with all of her buffs combined with many of the casts nerfs. Im of the opinion that painwheel with a pillar assist is at least an even matchup for any non peacock team. Peacock is painwheels big problem. Bella becomes evenish if painwheel has pillar behind her imho. And that only really leaves squigly that gives painwheel a hard time... But is that a 6-4 hard time or is it mostly even? I dont know because i dont have enough experience against squigly to know. But the primary problem against squigly is that squigly jumps so high against painwheel... It can be hard for pw to handle characters that go high above her.

I do, think that bella and squigly are slept on though... Especially bella.
 
On the plus side, this game is balanced enough such that even the perceived "worst" characters are good. It's just that others are better at being good. Painwheel just confuses me, honestly, and yeah Bella is underrated even though I underrate her all of the time.
 
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Surprised that people are STILL under-rating Bella and Peacock...makes no sense. I can see PW bottom three in the game though, although worst in SG doesn't really mean anything. I feel like Band is going to be higher than her due to his assists and ridiculous range with everything, but I'm not sure if Squiggly is better than PW.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
On the plus side, this game is balanced enough such that even the perceived "worst" characters are good. It's just that others are better at being good. Painwheel just confuses me, honestly, and yeah Bella is underrated even though I underrate her all of the time.


Painwheel is definitely confusing. Has one of the best matchups in the game against the games "best" character, but has losing or even matchups against everyone else. I think one thing that really has to be considered is painwheels safe dhc/ridiculous combos in install/ ridiculous on hit mixups in install. Sure it got nerfed a bit on block, but its still pretty damn ridiculous. And unlike peacocks or even parasouls safe dhc's painwheel gets put into a powered up state. Great way to change up momentum and painwheel can spend her install just throwing nails and allowing her partner to make some life back (while painwheel "piles" on the chip damage) i do think that other character did what painwheel does, better than her, but i think the gap has been made MUCH smaller. Painwheel isnt the character that she was in the vanilla version of the game where she couldn't cancel stingers, had no attacking level 3, had an install that cost 3 meters and didnt last as long, and had buers that couldnt be combod out of except in the corner.

The only real problem i have with the tier list though is that fortune is so high up, making her look s tier along with val, and that there arent as many "tied" placings as there should be imho.


Like if it were me i would probably make the list the same way, but fortune would be 2 rows from top, the next tier would be just below her all tied with each other, then just after that bella and squigly tied with painwheel like 5 pixels lower than them.

In other words i think the list is accurate, just needs to be more condensed to show a more visual representation of the tier list being in itself, pretty condensed.
 
Updated the list to make it more condensed. http://tinyurl.com/n3jwn5j
Big Band hasn't been out that long so it's just easier to tie him with Painwheel for now. Also moved him more to the right since his assists are too useful to want him starting out on point instead of being in the second or third slot. I also left Fortune and Val tied since, although I do think Val is slightly better than Fortune, they're both pretty equal in strength and tying them is just easier. Plus I'm sure there are people who would argue for either side.
Think of it like S, A, B tiers.
 
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Actually having Big Band as a point character and Bella as anchor can allow Big Band to do nasty setups and to squeeze out as much damage as possible by doing his taunt in mid combo.
I have examples of how Band and Bella work with each other.

 
Ninja said:
Actually having Big Band as a point character and Bella as anchor can allow Big Band to do nasty setups and to squeeze out as much damage as possible by doing his taunt in mid combo.
I have examples of how Band and Bella work with each other.

Not really that good of an example since you can do more damage midscreen with Big Band not only without an assist or needing a taunt ahead of time, but also without meter..
 
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Icky said:
Not really that good of an example since you can do more damage midscreen with Big Band not only without an assist or needing a taunt ahead of time, but also without meter..

Sorry wrong video...


This is the one.
 
That burst bait is awesome.

And I know I'm being a pain, but I don't really see how this highlights big band/bella synergy. He doesn't need excellabella to do those sort of things in the video. You use barely any undizzy meaning that you could easily kill even without the assist, or as much meter if you just alter your combos
 
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Not replying to anyone in particular, but I feel like Peacock is sleeping top tier (or not? Any good player who can weigh in on her?). The downside is that she requires a LOT of decision making. She has all the tools to do clever mixups and keep people locked down, but she's deliberately (by design as a zoner) limited by the usefulness of some of her normals. She has a hard time hit confirming, though she can do damage and reset pretty well. Most of her pressure is safe also since you can cancel into LK George, which is +2 on block. Peacock + assist leads to hilarious crossups with the teleport. And of course, she's an excellent zoner.

Unfortunately, I went from my totally unique (tm) FiliCock team to the bread and butter Peacock/X/X (I'll be PeaFiliBand once he's live) for this reason.

What's everyone's thoughts about Peacock? I know we got a few Cocky players in here.

Also if we already talked about her earlier in the thread link me pl0x, there's a lot to read lol.
 
Characters with weak dashes have the problem of not always being able to get easy confirms into combos (and then reset-until-dead) off of non-setup "neutral game" DP assist calls. That's pretty much why the popular low tier in SG is the low tier.
 
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Peacock's conversion off of DP assist is fine, that's what H SOID xx Argus is for. It's not a meter-less combo, but it's still a solid conversion back into her optimal position. With the way she builds meter, you shouldn't have a problem capitalizing on those hits.
 
Whether shes top tier or not is anyone's guess though many have said that they think so. Personally i dont know if SHE is, per se... But that goddamned new plane certainly is.


As far as hitconfirms go... Peacock has one of the best 3 strings into combo.

What peacock lacks is up close pressure, and ability to force ins on her own.
 
I think Peacock's main issues now are shitty standing poke normals and relatively poor reversal options. She can do everything else well enough (good grabs, good overhead, M SOID called with space and held is basically a free in for her). I don't think being unable to keep up pressure without an assist is specific to Peacock, it's the case for any character without multi-hit normals. What she gains though is frame advantage on the push-block right back into her zoning game.
 
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I won't say her defensive options are shitty, she has quite a few good amount of get out of jail free cards

walking george into teleport, item drop, bomb teleport, I'd consider lenny a good defensive option, j. hk
While not amazing, they're really good at stopping momentum
 
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Icky said:
Top tier: everyone else's characters

Bottom tier: the ones I play

Pretty easy to figure man, duuuuhhhh.
It's more like

Top Tier: The chars that people play, except Bella because Grapplers can't be good
Bottom Tier: The chars that nobody plays and every new character
 
IsaVulpes said:
It's more like

Top Tier: The chars that people play, except Bella because Grapplers can't be good
Bottom Tier: The chars that nobody plays and every new character
I guess the tier list is more complicated than i thought, my bad D:
 
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hlvn said:
Kinda done with tier lists.


Game's too deep/unexplored and people change their minds every other month.

Eh, I lost interest in the tier aspect of this thread around page 1. I figure the match-up/character weakness portion of the thread is still good, though.
 
Icky said:
Top tier: everyone else's characters

Bottom tier: the ones I play

Pretty easy to figure man, duuuuhhhh.

That's not entirely true.

If that were the case, people would never drop characters.

FUCK YOU CAROL :^)
 
I think tier lists are by themselves incomplete, though I don't think this game is too unexplored or too deep to make them.

The only thing that complicates Skullgirls is how characters react in a team vs as an assist vs solo and so on.

I also wouldn't discount popularity as a metric to determine relative strength of a character. It works as a reliable enough indicator in most games as people who want to win will often take the path of least resistance. The problem is popularity can also be attributed to other, more aesthetic factors so it is obviously imperfect.

More than tier lists, I like the match up 5-5 type lists.
 
Does SG even have tiers? we keep getting nerfs and buffs so often, i think its pointless to be honest due to the fact that updates happen every Friday or Saturday depending on if its Salty or Rebel up.
 
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Of course it has tiers, they just change as the game changes.

The game is still fairly young so the tiers are hardly ironed out, but it seems that there are some obviously superior characters and 1 obviously weaker character right now, to most people. Though there is some disagreement even there.
 
SHODAN said:
Does SG even have tiers? we keep getting nerfs and buffs so often, i think its pointless to be honest due to the fact that updates happen every Friday or Saturday depending on if its Salty or Rebel up.

Except Mike is on vacation this week. QUICK! Make a tier list before he comes back and updates the game again!

Nah I feel like the changes are played with enough that we can get a good grip on how they impact the game before they ever hit the live version.

With that said - even if we were still playing SDE, I doubt we could pin the tiers down with any confidence. Its still a pretty new game with a small community and not a whole lot of in depth exploration is being done.
 
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In general, people (or at least the higher level players) have been placing characters in about the same spots across all versions. Val and Fortune have always been top 3/4, Filia's always been up there (minus vanilla), Painwheel's always been considered mid 3 to lower 3, Bella's always been underrated and placed in the lower 3, and Peacock is just Peacock. The only character who has seen any real change is Parasoul.

Yeah, there have been a lot of changes and they come pretty often, but general placing has been the same for the most part.
 
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View619 said:
I think Peacock's main issues now are shitty standing poke normals and relatively poor reversal options. She can do everything else well enough (good grabs, good overhead, M SOID called with space and held is basically a free in for her). I don't think being unable to keep up pressure without an assist is specific to Peacock, it's the case for any character without multi-hit normals. What she gains though is frame advantage on the push-block right back into her zoning game.

Yeup, a Peacock that has you on the defensive is a Peacock that is totally untouchable (bar being baited into a super or reversal during a mixup). That's one off the reasons I've forced myself to learn better RushCock mixups/setups/playstyle. The key to her is using her projectiles to force people to use predictable approaches or eat mixups. She has all the tools she needs to discourage aggression and force unfavorable situations, but maintaining that kind of dominance over someone for an entire game requires perfect projectile timing/placement and accurate reads on the opponent.
Seems like not enough people go beyond the projectile spam and basic crossup options on her.


agent13 said:
I won't say her defensive options are shitty, she has quite a few good amount of get out of jail free cards

walking george into teleport, item drop, bomb teleport, I'd consider lenny a good defensive option, j. hk
While not amazing, they're really good stop momentum

I've actually been under utilizing Telebomb in neutral, thanks for reminding me.
 
Beamsprouts said:
I've actually been under utilizing Telebomb in neutral, thanks for reminding me.

Nobody does that tbh and works, well i dunno i don't play peacock but it's a good method lol
 
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Also, just to stay on topic....

Rate my biased chart: http://bombch.us/faA
Assist power on the Y-axis, on screen strength on X-axis.

EDIT: This is actually a work in progress I'm not happy with it. Definitely tell me what you think is wrong.
 
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Beamsprouts said:
Also, just to stay on topic....

Rate my biased chart: http://bombch.us/faA
Assist power on the Y-axis, on screen strength on X-axis.

EDIT: This is actually a work in progress I'm not happy with it. Definitely tell me what you think is wrong.
:PUN:lol nope :^)

I think you've misunderstood a few of the characters.
I feel like you discredit Double's point, Peacock's assists, Cerebella in general, and overestimated Valentine and Painwheel's dead weights. I think Painwheel should be a bit higher on point, and Fukua should be at the top left as Lord Tier.
 
StripeyBoosh said:
I think you've misunderstood a few of the characters.
I feel like you discredit Double's point, Peacock's assists, Cerebella in general, and overestimated Valentine and Painwheel's dead weights. I think Painwheel should be a bit higher on point, and Fukua should be at the top left as Lord Tier.

First off here's an updated chart: http://bombch.us/fnz
I edited a bit here and there.

I'm not even tuning in on Fukua until I have experience with her. Me and a couple friends messed around but didn't really do much with here and I haven't been on beta.

Double's point was not discredited, on the contrary I put her towards the middle of the cast. I know she's a very consistent character. She has something for just about every matchup.

Peacock has bombs and MP Bang for assists, maybe Cannonball, as far as I know. Bombs are good but not amazing, comparatively. The chart is subjective by definition, so if you think those assists are much more useful than I do give some reasons.

Cerebella was a tad underestimated, I actually moved her up in both assist power and point power. I stand by Cerebella's point placement unless you can convince me otherwise though, she doesn't have an amazing neutral.

Valentine and Painwheel's assist placement is relative to the absurd power that a lot of the cast has (Peacock's placement too for that matter). They have inferior lockdown, Val's c.mk is gimmicky at best, though I guess Savage Bypass and Pinion Dash have fullscreen value. Painwheel's s.mk is apparently good but I haven't witnessed it firsthand yet. I had forgotten Savage Bypass existed for a second also, so that puts Val on the same level as Painwheel in my opinion.

Painwheel's point value is hard to determine just because she's so hard to play and no one uses her to her full potential. Her placement was partially biased by how hard she can be to play well. Her normals have good range and she can hit confirm well and flight canceling is great, but it's all sluggish and easy to stuff. That's why people utilize her armor, at which point it becomes a total matchup game depending on multihits and the like. I could go on and on but this isn't a Painwheel thread.
tl;dr for being so technical Painwheel is easy to stuff
 
Beamsprouts said:
I stand by Cerebella's point placement unless you can convince me otherwise though, she doesn't have an amazing neutral.
- Alright mobility
- S class range
- Some of the best buttons in the game hitbox wise (s.lk, j.mp, etc whatever)
- MGR is a command throw that grabs you from halfscreen
- Reflect is the best anti-projectile special in the game
- Dynamo is the best AA in the game
Oh and on top of that she has brillions of armored tools

Where is it lacking?
 
Beamsprouts said:
a lot of words
You're dealing with a lot of extremes, and that's the issue here.
You're kind of going about things like
"This character's [subject] is either amazing, or it's just okay and therefore is irrelevant."
  • Peacock's assists have their uses, and her point is definitely valuable.
    • This is getting into a whole new topic of assists, which believe it or not, are not all meant to be used for the same situations, and can't be ranked based on your Painwheel logic. Some assists have obvious uses, while others need more experimentation.
  • Double has good assists and can take point with no problem. She's a bro.
  • Cerebella has already been mentioned a couple posts above mine.
  • Painwheel being "difficult to play" (lol wat) doesn't make her bad at everything.
    • Painwheel is more than capable of taking point and does so just fine.
    • Already mentioned the assist topic in Peacock's section.
  • Valentine is pretty good on point, and despite her assists being imperfect, I wouldn't go so far as to call her team dead weight.
    • That's like saying "this apple doesn't taste like oranges, so it's a shitty apple."
 
Icky said:
partially biased by how hard she is to play well

Wait... damn you guys got me. I fucked up.

StripeyBoosh said:
You're dealing with a lot of extremes, and that's the issue here.
You're kind of going about things like
"This character's [subject] is either amazing, or it's just okay and therefore is irrelevant.

It was never my intention to say they were irrelevant. If it sounded like that then my bad, and admittedly I dismissed them because I feel a lot of them aren't worth going into discussion about. But the way I look at it, if I looked at every character and said "yeah even if they aren't invincible DP tier they have their uses" everyone would be above the middle for assists and it would be an ugly graph :(. The point stuff likewise. It doesn't help that Skullgirls is pretty balanced LOL

Also if I somehow said Val is a bad character than I'm a weirdo. Of course she's good on a team, the term "Team Dead Weight" was just an amusing way of saying "meh assisting".

I tried to make the chart comparative. Of course Painwheel doesn't have shitty, godawful neutral; of course Val and Painwheel have good assists you can use; but when push came to shove and I was trying to decide how the character weighed next to someone with a tool for every situation or overpowered invincible assists or superior versions of essentially the same assist I had to put them low on the chart.

Anyway I thought my chart was relatively fair (pretty much everyone got tweaked upwards who was low), I'm sorry people disagree with me, I don't want the thread to get derailed into quoting me because I said some dumb things ;___;


And @IsaVulpes:
  • Easy to pushblock
  • No fast overheads (which makes blocking, and then pushblocking, easy)
  • Dynamo is a great anti-air, unless you don't have meter. Excellebella tries to cover that blind spot but fails a lot of the time
I'll give it to you that she has range and armor and lots of tools. Grabs are always a threat. I brought up pushblocking because even if grabs are always a threat they're not something that are easy to just land in neutral game. You have to go in and force them to stop jumping or backing up by jumping in or dashing forward, trying to lock them down with blockstun. Both are really easy to see coming and react to. She's going to have a hard time getting combos because her mixups aren't special and grabs only lead to combos in certain scenarios.
 
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