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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Beamsprouts said:
No fast overheads (which makes blocking, and then pushblocking, easy)
Actually, instant elbow drop used to be so fucking fast that it was functionally invisible and Mike Z nerfed it. At 11 frames of startup, it's only 4 frames slower than Filia j.LK and still way faster than the average human can react (somewhere around 25f).

Of course, if overheads aren't your thing, it's not like she doesn't have a 4f move that can't be blocked low.
 
Icky said:
Every single character in this game has really good mixups, you just aren't playing against the right players.
This in addition to what KhaosMuffins said. Low/Throw mix-up is really strong even without overheads because you can't throw tech while crouching.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Too lazy right now, just



"resets", not mixups. They're very different, especially when you're using assists for resets.

Also everyone, how comboable is elbow if you use it as an instant overhead now? I'm intrigued by the concept.
 
Beamsprouts said:
"resets", not mixups. They're very different, especially when you're using assists for resets.

Also everyone, how comboable is elbow if you use it as an instant overhead now? I'm intrigued by the concept.


Resets and mixups in sg are near the same thing. If you use the same reset at the same point in your combo it will stop working. so you have to "mix it up" which is a "mixup".

There are on hit mixups (which, of course, are resets) and on block mixups (frame traps generally speaking) but also high/lows and even low/throw when the opponent recovers from the block as well as crossups.
 
Dime_x said:
Resets and mixups in sg are near the same thing. If you use the same reset at the same point in your combo it will stop working. so you have to "mix it up" which is a "mixup".

There are on hit mixups (which, of course, are resets) and on block mixups (frame traps generally speaking) but also high/lows and even low/throw when the opponent recovers from the block as well as crossups.

Well yes, resets are mixups. But they're used in entirely different contexts than neutral game mixups. I was saying that Bella gets in then has nothing amazing to do other than her grabs. She goes in, gets pushblocked by a predictable high/low game, and can't grab. I'm curious about the elbow drop's combo-ability because if she jumps in with j.hk and doesn't get pushblocked then she could go high twice which would be a huge 50/50 high/low mind game for whoever has to block it.
 
Bella has nothing amazing up-close? She has a potent low/throw game, with two meter-less grounds grabs that you can not tech, both doing a lot of damage on their own + the follow-ups. Do you want to hold up? Well, better hope she doesn't hit you with a low into combo. If you're playing Bellas that you can predictably push block out, they're not very good players.

Low/throw is already a 50/50 guess (even if you could tech the grabs), she doesn't really need the high. Either you're going to stay on the ground to block the low, hold up to avoid the grab (no tech) or reversal to avoid both.
 
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Beamsprouts said:
She goes in, gets pushblocked by a predictable high/low game, and can't grab. .
What in the world

Okay, High/low game? What high does she have? Pummel Horse? Super slow and risky. Second hit of st.hk? You get barely anything off of that hitting and anyone above beginner level won't get hit by it.

CAN'T. GRAB.?!

HELLLOOOOOO what?????

Am I making a mistake here for thinking you're talking about bella?? Did you actually make a post about some other character? This isn't even close to bella that you're describing.
 
Beamsprouts said:
Well yes, resets are mixups. But they're used in entirely different contexts than neutral game mixups. I was saying that Bella gets in then has nothing amazing to do other than her grabs. She goes in, gets pushblocked by a predictable high/low game, and can't grab. I'm curious about the elbow drop's combo-ability because if she jumps in with j.hk and doesn't get pushblocked then she could go high twice which would be a huge 50/50 high/low mind game for whoever has to block it.

Because you can't Up+Back freely when the opponent has a move out (Prejump is cancelled by Proximity Block), Bella has REALLY strong mixups that can't be pushblocked on reaction. Stymied Lights + Assist Cover WILL catch autopilot defensive choices (Such as Holding Up+Back/Holding Down+Back and waiting for something reactable to pushblock).

Obviously, if they hold up to avoid this, they're not blocking.
 
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View619 said:
Low/throw is already a 50/50 guess (even if you could tech the grabs), she doesn't really need the high. Either you're going to stay on the ground to block the low, hold up to avoid the grab (no tech) or reversal to avoid both.

But how is she getting close to you safely to use those grabs? Empty jumping? Just walking in? Of course Bella is amazing up close because of the grabs, but she usually seems easy to keep out or jump away from unless she's locking you down with an assist.

You could make an interesting argument for empty jumping and just grabbing immediately once you land, I suppose, but any other incoming gets her pushblocked or simply out maneuvered, given her somewhat slow forward dash. That's what I'm saying. She can cover full to half screen easily because of run, double jump, glide, armor, etc. but once she gets there and has to throw out moves to hit someone it seems she starts losing.

@Krackatoa : I know the low/grab options are powerful. But I feel like assist cover is the only way to get in and make that a reality. I suppose I shouldn't totally ignore assist usefulness for her, but I was trying to look at her power as an individual character on the screen.


@Icky : see the rest of the post.


ITT: Guys, I know Cerebella's grabs are scary, but without an assist to force mixups what does she have that's not an empty jump to bait out reactions. I just don't see Cerebella getting in to use her amazing up close pressure against someone with a good pushblock finger or smart movement.
 
So, what are you saying? Is it that she has poor pressure without an assist or that she has a difficult time approaching? Her pressure is fine, since you can't push-block grabs, she doesn't have to tag you with a normal to set-up grabs and if you're jumping you're not blocking. If it's mobility, that has nothing to do with her pressure options at all.

Basically, if she gets close enough to where you have to think about push-blocking normals to push her away, then you have a problem. You have to guess at either jump away (weak to cr.lk) or get grabbed (can't push block this).

Also, push block baiting is very much a part of SG as well. So if you're opponent isn't doing anything to throw off your attempts to push block the first hit she puts out, that's not a weakness of the character.
 
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I read the rest of your post, and it's just all theory fighter about a character that you don't play, or seem to have a good understanding of. The "high/low game" part was the final nail in the coffin
 
Beamsprouts said:
ITT: Guys, I know Cerebella's grabs are scary, but without an assist to force mixups what does she have that's not an empty jump to bait out reactions. I just don't see Cerebella getting in to use her amazing up close pressure against someone with a good pushblock finger or smart movement.

Um...
  • Glide
  • run and it's many options
  • Diamond reflector as a counter
  • I don't play bella but this is just off the top of my head
 
View619 said:
Her pressure is fine, since you can't push-block grabs, she doesn't have to tag you with a normal to set-up grabs and if you're jumping you're not blocking.

Basically, if she gets close enough to where you have to think about push-blocking normals to push her away, then you have a problem. You have to guess at either jump away (weak to cr.lk) or get grabbed (can't push block this).

You're right that as long as she's on the ground next to you she's scary. I was just hesitant to acknowledge that until I understood how she would get in. Jump in j.hk is so common and just doesn't cut it.

To answer your question about what I was asking, I felt like she had no way to approach without getting pushblocked or being the one put into block stun. Empty jumping seems to cover that issue, and for some reason it took me a long time to put 2 and 2 together and see that puts Cerebella where she wants to be to apply pressure.

I do think I've seen the light though. Now that I've remembered empty jumps to bait out reactions/pushblocking are an actual thing I do see how Cerebella can get in and actually use her grabs.

Icky said:
I read the rest of your post, and it's just all theory fighter about a character that you don't play, or seem to have a good understanding of. The "high/low game" part was the final nail in the coffin
Thanks for adding to the conversation! I'm glad people like you are always willing to share. We learn a lot from debate, after all. Your other post was also very helpful and not a mess of snide comments and punctuation marks.
 
Yessir Titan Knuckle is pretty great against push-block overall. Whether as bait (with the option to cancel into grab before it hits) or as a follow-up if you do get pushed out if the opponent tries to act at that point.
 
Beamsprouts said:
snip

Both dekillsage and TJ ran bella vs Duck on Friday and won their ft7s versus him. Watch how they play, and especially watch the number of times they get damage or conversions with bella off of pbgc. You have to be right where bella wants you to even pressure her with most characters.
 
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Newest JP tier list. Mind you, it only applies to 1v1 matchups.

8iMAm.png


They aren't sorted in the chart, the actual point ranking is on the right. Some of these MU evaluations are rather...interesting.
 
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Id say i trust japanese rankings over american ones but... Ew... Painwheel wins every 1v1 matchup except parasoul and goes even against double and squigly...


Ive seen some of the best these guys have to offer and they have a very good couple of fortunes, probably the best solo pw in the world right now... Magicman, probably the best squigly or solo squigly in the world, gfarmer, and possibly the best solo peacock, mulnim. They dont seem to have any really good solo bellas though. Still though i find this chart highly... Interesting. It means less to me where they have these characters and more to me WHY they have these characters where they are. I dont think either of their fortunes specialize in head off though. Out here in au, none of our fortunes do either.
 
Parasoul vs Cock 7-3 in Parasoul's favour

Painwheel positive matchups against basically everyone.
 
...yeah... I didnt even see this list...who did this list? The Koreans specialize in solo play, the japs actually use assists with the exception of poccola.
 
View619 said:
We need match vids of the asian SG scene ASAP.
There are match vids up in the match video thread i think.


Yeah in the videos and streams section. Duckators match videos thread, 2nd page ages first post i think.
 
Tomo009 said:
Parasoul vs Cock 7-3 in Parasoul's favour

Painwheel positive matchups against basically everyone.
Well, I mean if they're strictly looking at solo vs solo, so no one has assists.... no, this still looks pretty wrong.
 
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Tomo009 said:
Parasoul vs Cock 7-3 in Parasoul's favour

I want to live in this world. The only MU that feels worse for me is Squigly vs Peacock
 
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Beamsprouts said:
First off here's an updated chart: http://bombch.us/fnz
I edited a bit here and there.

People really underrate Peacock's assists. They're so good. Much better than Squigly's IMO and at least as good as Fortune's one good assist. They're amazing for covering your approach or beefing up your point character's zoning.
 
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Zari0t said:
Newest JP tier list. Mind you, it only applies to 1v1 matchups.

They must have some insaaaaaane Painwheel tech for her to have such good match ups LOL.
 
Beamsprouts said:
They must have some insaaaaaane Painwheel tech for her to have such good match ups LOL.
To be fair, Updo assist and Napalm Pillar assist not existing is probably the biggest buff Painwheel could ever get.
 
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You know I totally agree with PW having a favorable solo matchup against PC. It's when there's more or less any assist is when the matchup gets bad for PW.
 
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View619 said:
Asia knows something about armour that we don't.
But they rank Cerebella as third worst. What are they playing over there?

Like, at first the chart doesn't seem so weird until it hits you that they came up with Valentine as the second-worst character in the game. And the Parasoul/Peacock matchup, jesus. How does Parasoul have a better matchup v. Peacock than Valentine?
 
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Zari0t said:
Newest JP tier list. Mind you, it only applies to 1v1 matchups.

8iMAm.png


They aren't sorted in the chart, the actual point ranking is on the right. Some of these MU evaluations are rather...interesting.

What? Parasoul/Peacock is 70/30?

*Moves to Japan*
 
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View619 said:
Asia knows something about armour that we don't.


Ive been saying that magicman is the best armor user for awhile now.


BUT, its a hell of a lot easier to use armor in solo where you dont have an Extra hit or 2 to soak up from an assist. In teams is where armor kinda gets shat on. I still think the list is wonky... I have no idea why para versus peacock is what it is... They have a VERY good solo peacock to play against and as far as i can tell he beats almost everyone regularly. Though their solo para seems really good to (Zeus)

Squigly makes some sense because gfarmer plays her, ive played a few games against him and hes got the best sg footsies that ive ever played against. Even magicmans footsies didnt feel as good as gfarmers, to me.


List is still wonky though, but really its only for a few really weird matchups. Much of it looks decent. I can only think that perhaps player strength is adversely affecting certain match numbers.


-edit

I forgot, magicman uses parasoul as well.... That could be the reason for her high tiering, dude has combos that are on sev sand kens levels for para and he's probably unmatched in the combo department for painwheel.
 
I wonder if this list takes the recent Fortune headless nerfs into account.
 
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