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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Luweewu said:
And then someone mentions MvC2 and this thread goes right back into the same circle the last one did.

Maybe we just need a dedicated MvC2 Is Awesome thread?
 
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alexpi said:
Maybe you're the reason everyone thinks PW sucks?
I think Elda proves Painwheel's viability. The reset possibilities are there and the combo's are just combo-rific.
If you look at him playing Painwheel, you'll see it.
Mc.Rad said:
Goddamnit, man! You made me wait two minutes for nothing to show up!
There are tier list in Skullgirls, but the tier list aren't like the SNK tier list which only base itself on how many times a character is played in a tourney, the SG tier list are more about specifics like tools, zoning, assists, etc.
 
Are the tiers going to count solo, duo & 3-man teams?
 
I maintain that Parasoul is better than she's given credit for. It'll take someone willing to make a study of her teardrop zoning game to eek out more of her potential.

I try to be one of the PW guys that heavily uses armor. Auto-correct s.MP was a blessing. I only really use unfly to block against A-Train. Seems like in most other situations, it's better to armor through for positioning.

It looks like her identity as a flight character is fading. Taluda pointed out that keeping her on the ground yields better rewards - more damage output, more armor options, and better mixup. Accepting that helps a lot, but it also puts her in the realm of characters that do the same thing a little bit better.
 
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DDB said:
That's it, I've done it.

The truest of tier lists.

Also Painwheel and Parasoul are bad.
No not really Parasoul can be quite intimidating her Ms Fortune and Valentine all give me shakes when I encounter them in online play
 
How can you rank tiers on an Annie scale?

She's not even the best TV show in Skullgirls.
 
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MotoEleven said:
No not really Parasoul can be quite intimidating her Ms Fortune and Valentine all give me shakes when I encounter them in online play

... But is she Annie?
 
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How do I rank how Painwheel someone is?
 
gold163 said:
... But is she Annie?
Ok im starting to laugh now who is Annie!?! Is she that girl next to Fukua when she confronts Filia in her story? If so who is she really? Whats her back story?
 
Instead of possibly going off-topic, I direct you to...

My world.
 
Icky said:
Annie is a cancerous bullet we dodged during the character DLC votes :)
Whats with the whole annie thing? And an annie scale? I think they took it too far ha!
 
DDB said:
Instead of possibly going off-topic, I direct you to...

My world.

I'm almost scared to say I want Annie in just so we can see what all the hype is about....Though I'd rather Brain Drain join first.

But yeah, tiers are tricky. I only really play as Fortune, so I couldn't tell you but she's relatively solid with some general weaknesses. Any tier list doesn't quite work at the moment because there are always exceptions. I think a dedicated Painwheeler could be a real terror in game.
 
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gold163 said:
In that respect Skullgirls wouldn't have tiers in the traditional sense anyway because it's primarily team-based.
i wonder if it would work better if a graph like using the mmcafe one would use some sort of measure like "Needs Assists <-> Self Sufficient" for one axis and "Quality of Assists Provided by this Character" for the other.
 
To get back on topic...

If you are ranking characters anwhere above A and anything below B- in SG, you have not played enough other games with characters that are ACTUALLY S or S+ or SS or C or D tier.
(And no, kenin, you do not count as a Third Strike player. :^)
If you played MvC2 Hayato vs Storm / Juggernaut vs Cable / Thanos vs Sentinel / 3s Twelve vs Chun / Q vs Makoto / BBCT V-13 vs Tager / GGAC Pot vs Eddie, you would understand this.

------ The below is all IMO ------

S-tier or above means there are large portions of the match (at neutral or in pressure) where you do not need to consider the opponent's character or options at all. It means you are able to create multiple situations where the opponent's only option is to play nearly perfectly in order to simply take minimal damage, rather than to escape unscathed - let alone THINK about hitting you at all. (Catheads is the closest thing SG has to any S-tier situation, in my experience, and even then the damage it leads to is minimal. A safe DHC is not S-tier.)
A-tier means you can create many situations to your advantage but not lopsidedly so, and always have at least decent options.
B-tier is average. [Note that what is "average" varies per game. A GG character can open you up in many more ways and approach in many more ways than an SF4 character at any given time, so you can't compare the two straight across.]
C-tier means you can create few situations to your advantage, but can still create at least one useful situation, and that a lot of the situations created by the characters above you are much more heavily in their favor than vs a B-tier character.
D-tier and below (C-tier to some people) means that in order to win you are relying on your opponent making a mistake and you capitalizing perfectly / relying on outplaying your opponent so hard that it wouldn't matter which character you picked (Kuroda) / or relying on having so much matchup knowledge that you are winning by your opponent's relative inexperience. The key concept is relying on your opponent making mistakes. In other words, against a skilled player you will not win by yourself, you must force them to lose for you.

In an S-vs-C or A-vs-D matchup (with good players) you should expect set play to dominate most of the matches, with the lower-tier character being forced to take huge risks in order to get any damage and often having to resort to their most risky tactics once they do land a hit or get a life lead just to maintain it, while the hither-tier character can do their safest or most basic approaches and not worry.

IMVHO there isn't an S-tier or D-tier in SG, and probably not even a C-tier at this point.
 
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I know I don't :(

But like I said. The MMCafe list has too small of space, if we went by a more simplistic way of doing things it goes from A+ to B-C.
 
Oh I got ya covered.

S: Double
A: Peacock
B: Squigly, Painwheel, Ms. Fortune
C: Filia, Fukua
D: Cerebella
DD: Parasoul, Big Band
E: Valentine
 
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With all the continuing discuss of tier lists I decided to do more research and give out a detailed tier list because I feel my knowledge of the game (as a player who has actually been here from the start and has played high level players such as Severine and Domo multiple times) I compiled a tier list for the most recent update to Skullgirls: Encore v.1.02.

spoilers because the image is fairly large and I am not one for page stretching~
55i9eq.png


You thought there would be an incredibly biased and inaccurate tier list, but instead it is I, Ileum!
 
Zazz said:
i wonder if it would work better if a graph like using the mmcafe one would use some sort of measure like "Needs Assists <-> Self Sufficient" for one axis and "Quality of Assists Provided by this Character" for the other.
Here's a template to use.
 
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Mike_Z said:
To get back on topic...

If you are ranking characters anwhere above A and anything below B- in SG, you have not played enough other games with characters that are ACTUALLY S or S+ or SS or C or D tier.
(And no, kenin, you do not count as a Third Strike player. :^)
If you played MvC2 Hayato vs Storm / Juggernaut vs Cable / Thanos vs Sentinel / 3s Twelve vs Chun / Q vs Makoto / BBCT V-13 vs Tager / GGAC Pot vs Eddie, you would understand this.

------ The below is all IMO ------

S-tier or above means there are large portions of the match (at neutral or in pressure) where you do not need to consider the opponent's character or options at all. It means you are able to create multiple situations where the opponent's only option is to play nearly perfectly in order to simply take minimal damage, rather than to escape unscathed - let alone THINK about hitting you at all. (Catheads is the closest thing SG has to any S-tier situation, in my experience, and even then the damage it leads to is minimal. A safe DHC is not S-tier.)
A-tier means you can create many situations to your advantage but not lopsidedly so, and always have at least decent options.
B-tier is average.
C-tier means you can create few situations to your advantage, but can still create at least one useful situation, and that a lot of the situations created by the characters above you are much more heavily in their favor than vs a B-tier character.
D-tier and below (C-tier to some people) means that in order to win you are relying on your opponent making a mistake and you capitalizing perfectly / relying on outplaying your opponent so hard that it wouldn't matter which character you picked (Kuroda) / or relying on having so much matchup knowledge that you are winning by your opponent's relative inexperience. The key concept is relying on your opponent making mistakes. In other words, against a skilled player you will not win by yourself, you must force them to lose for you.

In an S-vs-C or A-vs-D matchup (with good players) you should expect set play to dominate most of the matches, with the lower-tier character being forced to take huge risks in order to get any damage and often having to resort to their most risky tactics once they do land a hit or get a life lead just to maintain it, while the hither-tier character can do their safest or most basic approaches and not worry.

IMVHO there isn't an S-tier or D-tier in SG, and probably not even a C-tier at this point.
Hmph... never seen Tiers like Grades thats kinda interesting...
 
The only Tier list of Skullgirls depends really on your skill.



I will tell the 2 people that play Shrek Super Slam that Shrek is the literal God tier Chariceter
 
I don't think Big Band and Fukua should be on the tier chart for now considering they are still really new still, they have a lot of untapped potential that we can hopefully see in the upcomming tournaments
 
Matty said:
spoilers because the image is fairly large and I am not one for page stretching~
55i9eq.png


You thought there would be an incredibly biased and inaccurate tier list, but instead it is I, Ileum!

To quote Armageddon's quote

AW, SON OF A BITCH
 
Dime_x said:
...

I think painwheel is currently mid tier. I dont think she is bottom.


As far as why others think she sucks/her weaknesses... They are many and vast:

Her top 2 weaknesses are that shes slow (has a floaty jump and slow startup dash) she doesnt use the best assists in the game as confirms very well.

Tertiary weaknesses:

Her reversal is balls for wakeup and neutral and requires meter (pretty decent pbgc though)
Her air normals have either slow startup or small range.
Her meter gain is abysmal
Her armor is easily beaten via multihits or avoided entirely.
Has 1 low for all intents and purposes and it is rather slow, which gets her counterhit out of it fairly often. She can use lp instead for the increased speed but loses the low property and range as well.
Has no double jump so it can be hard for her to deal with characters that can get higher than her... Which is everyone except parasoul (who has the best air to airs in the game to make up for charge and no double jump).
Her fireball has huge startup time, her fireball does pathetic damage.
She doesnt excel at any 1 thing, yet isnt really a jack of all trades either.


By themselves, none of those is really huge. Its the combination of them that makes her tough to win with because its a lot of weaknesses to try and minimise/account for.

Her strengths:

Easy attack confirms.
Easy throw confirms.
Good damage.
Good resets.
J.mp is fully confirmable even when jumping backwards.
Flight avoids a lot of bs that other characters have to deal with.
Can cancel her fireballs startup into flight at any time.
Safe on block dhc.
Cr.mp alpha counter could be better than what is currently known.
Armor is situationally powerful.
Strong install combos.


You are talking about Painwheel in a vacuum. Compare her to other characters and say why you would pick her over them.

Painwheel in and of herself isn't bad, but show me a team with Painwheel on it that is actually top tier. I'm talking competitive with the best Valentine/Fortune/Peacock teams etc.
 
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DDB said:
Oh I got ya covered.

S: Double
A: Peacock
B: Squigly, Painwheel, Ms. Fortune
C: Filia, Fukua
D: Cerebella
DD: Parasoul, Big Band
E: Valentine

I see what you did there, you sly dog.

My only criticism is that this list doesn't take into consideration all of the ass men of the world.
 
I'm an ear man myself. There are dozens of us dozens!
 
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Tomo009 said:
You are talking about Painwheel in a vacuum. Compare her to other characters and say why you would pick her over them.

Painwheel in and of herself isn't bad, but show me a team with Painwheel on it that is actually top tier. I'm talking competitive with the best Valentine/Fortune/Peacock teams etc.


My current team, team pali is up there in strength to the best teams imho. Clarence once said it might be an endgame team. Dont know. The jury is still out for me. As far as who she is better than.

She has the only truly safe on block dhc in the game. And on hit she can do super nutty stuff. That alone is worth something and is something that only really double has besides painwheel... But double is already on the team.


I didnt say that she was high tier, i said i think shes mid. Her top weaknesses of being slow, and being hard to use to confirm assists... Are hugely glaring weaknesses THAT KEEP HER DOWN.

Lest put it this way... If she were to get the double treatment and get parasouls fantastic forward dash, painwheel i can almost guarantee you would be top tier or near it, maybe even broke. If you were to take it a step further and also give her a parasoul style of jump (less floaty than painwheels jump) it would get even better.


When it comes down to it i dont think any of the tertiary weaknesses i mentioned for painwheel are particularly telling.

What keeps her down specifically is her inability to convert assist hits while using evasive movement. Parasoul/val/double/fortune/peacock/filia can all use evasive movement (empty jump backwards and call assist) and still convert (val is best at it, parasoul/double comes in second in general with fortune right behind, then filia) Peacock is easiest but requires meter.

This is only a problem because of painwheels inability to also get people off of her. She NEEDS a gtfo assist. And the assists that she can easily confirm from (cerecopter/excelebella/diamond drop/val command grab etc etc etc arent gtfo. So she missing a big piece of strategy.


However her confirms are probably the games best. But when every character has good confirms, its kinda meh.


All in all i like painwheel primarily for safe dhc. Safe dhc along with her other attributes such as good confirms, good resets, can convert from evasive j.mp are enough to put her at mid tier imho.
 
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DDB said:
Theoretically Infinite: Double
[Large Gap]
A: Peacock
B: Squigly, Painwheel, Ms. Fortune
C: Filia, Fukua
D: Cerebella
DD: Parasoul, Big Band
E: Valentine
Fixed, M8

Alternatively
[No order within tiers]
Theoretically Infinite: Double
S: Filia, Fukua, Squiggly
A: Parasoul
B: Ms. Fortune, Cerebella
D: Painwheel, Peacock
???: Big Band
 
Mid tier above who?

I guess I could potentially see her above BB, but BB is still pretty fresh and being discovered and his strengths are reasonably obvious.

Team Pali is the best possible Painwheel team I can think of, but I don't think it competes with the other great shells.

Squigly is another character that is difficult to build a team for, but the teams that she can make work are just much more powerful than team Pali I think.
 
I woudnt put painwheel above anyone. I would put her equal with BB And squigly at least. While she might also be more or less equal with bella and parasoul as well.


I dont think sg has a low tier tbh. Painwheel was it, but shes to strong to be low tier. Ive played lots of low tier in my life and painwheel aint that. When i play her against other people she feels like a midtier character, straight up. Same as BB and squigs.


Also, i only feel like painwheel really shines with pillar assist. It is basically a must have for me... Bomber doesnt cut it at all.


So when i run team pali with painwheel in front i basically only use pillar assist. Then i use bomber assist for parasoul.

With parasoul in front i get to make use of painwheels great dhc but i lose a bit by having to use bomber. I also get cr.mp alpha counter.

And finally i can use double in front with painwheel second and parasoul 3rd... still a great team.

And its a great team that PAINWHEEL is on. Whether it competes with the best val teams or fortune teams... Perhaps not a couple of months ago.. But val and fortune have been super nerfed. Peacock and to a lesser extent, squigly are the only problems this team really has. Squigly being not that hard to handle, just annoying.

And thats before i mention things like this is really team synergy in a bucket. Any direction. And every character has a safe on block dhc and can even combo from all of my reversals...
 
dekillsage said:
I think peacock and parasoul are better. Filia is only top 3 when she lands a hit (which is everyone in this game), and I don't think her neutral is very good. Not compared to parasoul/val anyways, and I think peacock does more for a a team than Filia ever would.(Meter build, great match up spread, high damage output on hit and block).

That's just my opinion though.
If you don't agree with dekillsage's post, you need to play this game more. Peacock is incredibly good in the right hands, and Valentine, Parasoul, and Fortune all have really good neutral games, which is why they're considered top tier.
 
Wait, you think Valentine, Parasoul, Peacock, and Fortune aren't the top of the game? You honestly believe that Painwheel and Squigly are better than any of those characters?
 
I'm no pro, but I don't quite get why people say "Fillia doesn't have a good neutral game". Her hitboxes seem pretty good + one of the fastest/most mobile characters + pretty decent utility in various situations.
 
Filia's approaches are pretty linear and she can't really do anything at full screen other than dash/airdash. Your options are pretty much dash in low, air dash fierce, air dash strong, air dash roundhouse. j.RH is only really useful against grounded opponents. Compare to Parasoul, with her disjointed and long ranged hitboxes or even Squigly with her ability to change angle in air and the constant threat of Sing + SBO and Filia is really looking weak at neutral.
 
Luckily, once she gets her hit, Filia's in forever.

Which is why she is the goddess of mid. Why bother with neutral when you can instantly be in with Gregor DHC?
 
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