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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Who would you rate lower than Painwheel though?
 
Do you *need to* rate characters lower? We don't debate whether we rate Fortune or Val higher, we just say "Highest Tier is Fortune/Val".
I don't think PW (or anyone else) is notably weaker enough than the rest of the 'bottom half' to give her a tier on her own.
 
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Yeah, shes lower than i previous thought... But i still dont think shes garbage tier. As far as taluda winning with her... Thats good stuff... But cvs2 iyo beat great players with sim maki rolento... None of which are top tier and sim of which is bottom tier. Yet he still won with them against great players.


The point being that justin wong playing ironfist and beating people doesnt mean ironfist is good... It means justin is good (was... With ironfist) and the same for taluda, him beating people with pw doesnt mean that pw is all of a sudden godlike... It at this point just means that "HE" is good. If MORE people pick up painwheel and actually start winning with her... Then it will mean shes a good character. Right now pw is just a bit to slow in her actual movements... This is her biggest weakness and the primary thing that keeps her "lower" imho.

If she had a faster dash, or a faster jump, or a faster startup and recovery stinger (or perhaps even all 3)
I think she would be complete and up there with everyone. But right now she lacks speed in almost every aspect. Great players like taluda can overcome this with being straight up being better than their opponents.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I think people underrate Painwheel's offense and neutral capabilities a bit...

That's cuz you play fortune and filiaaaa
who happen to be the match up painwheel can reliably win in.
 
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I think taluda built what is probably the best painwheel team possible.
One of painwheel's strongest points is her ability to convert off pretty much any j.mp, that makes fiber the perfect dp assist for her since her crappy dash makes conversions off regular dps a lot harder (winnie got rekt by fiber).
Then copter makes her harder to block than filia and parasoul, calling copter after j.mp either gives a 7k conversion or three other mixups when blocked...

Painwheel alone may be bottom tier but, imo, painwheel/fiber/copter is pretty damn strong.
 
I honestly think the best Painwheel team possible is team Pali.

Parasoul/Painwheel/Double

It is a pretty solid team but not among the top tier teams.
 
CaioLugon said:
I think taluda built what is probably the best painwheel team possible.
One of painwheel's strongest points is her ability to convert off pretty much any j.mp, that makes fiber the perfect dp assist for her since her crappy dash makes conversions off regular dps a lot harder (winnie got rekt by fiber).
Then copter makes her harder to block than filia and parasoul, calling copter after j.mp either gives a 7k conversion or three other mixups when blocked...

Painwheel alone may be bottom tier but, imo, painwheel/fiber/copter is pretty damn strong.
I agree, and I'm surprised more people don't run Painwheel and Fortune together, since they seem to have good synergy together.
Tomo009 said:
I honestly think the best Painwheel team possible is team Pali.

Parasoul/Painwheel/Double

It is a pretty solid team but not among the top tier teams.
I think this team was good back in SDE when it had touch of deaths in 3v1 but I'm not sure I agree it's still good. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning though.
 
dekillsage said:
That's cuz you play fortune and filiaaaa
who happen to be the match up painwheel can reliably win in.
B-b-but nobody believes me on that. :(
But on a more serious note, she converts off of ground and air grabs so easily that when people say that her mixup isn't that great or "the secret is to just block high", I /kinda/ just wanna smack them.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
B-b-but nobody believes me on that. :(
But on a more serious note, she converts off of ground and air grabs so easily that when people say that her mixup isn't that great or "the secret is to just block high", I /kinda/ just wanna smack them.

People don't grab often enough, it seems. Gotta avoid that damage scaling. =/
 
Thank god i'm not a band player or i'd start crying if painwheel got in
 
Can we discuss the Fukua/Parasoul matchup?
 
iLoli said:
Can we discuss the Fukua/Parasoul matchup?
It's probably bad for Parasoul? I'd guess? I don't play either character but Parasoul traditionally struggles with strong zoning characters.
 
I like being on the Fukua side of that matchup, especially if you have a good "get off me" assist. You can pretty much spend the match doing jump dart, land, shadow over and over. Also, j.HK done high beats pillar often simply because you move forward so quickly
 
Fukua can zone her, has a really easy time getting into the Pillar deadspace, can reliably crossup with L.Dart, can reaction punish Tearshots with Super, can't be zoned with Tosses due to just jumping out of them into Airfireball, j.HK beats Para's air to air options (and she doesn't really have anything good to press on the ground), Para can't close distance fast enough to keep up with s.HK xx things, etc

Not very fun.
 
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View619 said:
People don't grab often enough, it seems. Gotta avoid that damage scaling. =/

Mine's the opposite problem. I'm having to force myself not to throw...
 
mcpeanuts said:
I agree, and I'm surprised more people don't run Painwheel and Fortune together, since they seem to have good synergy together.

I think this team was good back in SDE when it had touch of deaths in 3v1 but I'm not sure I agree it's still good. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning though.
My main reason is that Parasoul generally doesn't need to use much meter, so she is a far better battery than Fortune which is obviously want Painwheel wants. Bikes xx Hatred Install is pretty much the best way to bring Painwheel in I can think of. Napalm Pillar isn't updo but it is much better than fiber upper.

Sure Painwheel CAN confirm from fiber upper... when she jumps forward while calling it, but otherwise it is a real struggle. It's a pretty good assist for her offensively but Pillar is much better defensively I think.

Of course the team allows "safe" DHC any way around which is always useful.

So in summary, Parasoul is the best battery, she can make use of Painwheel's assist unlike most characters and she has the best way to bring Painwheel in, as far as I can see. The team is INTENDED to swap Painwheel and Parasoul, it runs the typical point/point/assist but emphasises PW in second. It allows Painwheel to emergency DHC back out to Parasoul if necessary and pillar is probably the second best assist for PW.

Double does her typical stuff, she's a DHC into cat heads, she is a lockdown assist, meter is her catalyst for a very possible come back.

EDIT: On the Fukua vs Parasoul thing. Feels pretty controlling from the Fukua point of view. You can just sit in Parasoul's dead zone throwing air fireballs forcing Parasoul to come to you, which lets you use your shadows, at close Range Fukua can avoid Pillar with absolute ease, j.HK xx LP fireball just ignores it totally. The nail in the coffin? Parasoul's particular angle of attack is very succeptible to HK drill even if she DOES manage to get in. I feel Parasoul loses every aspect of this matchup, overall I doubt a Parasoul player wants to play against Fukua.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Fukua can zone her, has a really easy time getting into the Pillar deadspace, can reliably crossup with L.Dart, can reaction punish Tearshots with Super, can't be zoned with Tosses due to just jumping out of them into Airfireball, j.HK beats Para's air to air options (and she doesn't really have anything good to press on the ground), Para can't close distance fast enough to keep up with s.HK xx things, etc

Not very fun.
So let's concut some strats, then?

Hit with SS while they're doing air fireball?
 
iLoli said:
So let's concut some strats, then?

Hit with SS while they're doing air fireball?

Yeah, I was actually thinking about that. Also, wouldn't MK Soldier block everything she throws at you (Fireballs and Shadows) and allow Parasol to get tears and MP Shots off? I think Parasol has resets that allow her to negate HK Drill some-what (cross-ups and grabs, mainly). Avoiding Pillar is easy for anybody baiting it, so I don't think that's a huge issue.

Granted, she can probably block after throwing the air fireball, so SS is most likely out.
 
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View619 said:
Yeah, I was actually thinking about that. Also, wouldn't MK Soldier block everything she throws at you (Fireballs and Shadows) and allow Parasol to get tears and MP Shots off? I think Parasol has resets that allow her to negate HK Drill some-what (cross-ups and grabs, mainly). Avoiding Pillar is easy for anybody baiting it, so I don't think that's a huge issue.
I was playing the match yesterday and while it feels really rough it's winnable. I don't think zoning is what wins it, either.

I think MK Soilder, full screen tear toss to scare the Fukua into explosion/Bikes, then move on in is the better option.

The question now is, what does Parasoul do once she's moved in?
 
iLoli said:
I was playing the match yesterday and while it feels really rough it's winnable. I don't think zoning is what wins it, either.

I think MK Soilder, full screen tear toss to scare the Fukua into explosion/Bikes, then move on in is the better option.

The question now is, what does Parasoul do once she's moved in?

Yeah, I doubt zoning would do it, just figured MK Soldier + Tears then move in would be a valid tactic. Also, I don't think she has any grab invincible moves, so you could mix that into you're high/low game to beat her reversal options. Basically, she has to guess grab and either tech or jump out to punish.
 
View619 said:
Yeah, I doubt zoning would do it, just figured MK Soldier + Tears then move in would be a valid tactic. Also, I don't think she has any grab invincible moves, so you could mix that into you're high/low game. Basically, she has to guess grab and either tech or jump out to punish.
Parasoul can throw during the shadows, I think the lk one is the only actual blockstring.
Maybe putting out MK egret whenever you see string into shadow?
Maybe HP Shot if you see her do a shadow stance?
Jump back HK Tear HP seems to be the best way to get away from her killzone.
 
Sniper vs Air Fireball works, but not on reaction and since it's an AA hit you will never get combos out of it - which makes it a pretty shit option overall.
Pretty much same case for Bike xx Sniper, where the Bike generally just whiffs cus Fukua stays in the air.

MK Soldier doesn't block MK.Shadow, as the shadow isn't active until in range to hit Parasoul.
It also doesn't block her Fireballs really, HP grounded goes over it, jump forward HP goes over it, and Doublejumps of any sort obviously avoid it entirely.

Yes, avoiding Pillar is easy for anybody baiting it, the point is Fukua doesn't have to bait it. She can just run through her default pressure and PS can't defend herself.

MP Tearshot works if done pre-emptively at a specific distance and is really good there.

Main way of fighting her is a mix of:
- Waddling forward while pushblocking to get Fukua slowly into the corner (unlike Peacock, Fukua can't teleport out of there~),
- Superjump to get over most of the zoning into float / airtoss (xx normal) / whatever really,
- Dashjump j.HP when you read a Shadow/MP.Fireball at bad distance,
- Getting a HK Toss off and moving in while Fukua blocks the explosion / does predictable jump+fireball
All the while being weary of not blocking anything at midrange cus then Fukua just cancels her zoning and goes on the offensive on frame advantage

Fukua's only throw invincible move is BFF Super.
 
We also have to be weary of DHC'ing into Parasoul or even Pillar/Bikes because her Command Throw.

She really only has Filia's normals and no air dash so she's not threading the needle like Filia would.

I've been told that Parasoul's shots outpace Fukua's fireballs.

I personally don't believe it, and even if it did, most Fukuas would air fireball.
 
I never feel I need to corner myself in the matchup. That's the one place I know I will die. If Parasoul starts to approach I will go on the offensive.

I think Parasoul wants to predict Fukua's approach and meet her in the air. If she throws a MK shadow you want to pushblock her out, don't let her get in at advantage like that. Parasoul doesn't really seem to have overly effective anti zoning tools in the matchup so it is all about patience and getting yourself in the right position at the right time to challenge Fukua air to air I think.

I think Parasoul wants to get to a range where she can react to a MK shadow and quickly bop Fukua but outside the range where Fukua could easily get close to you during your jump. This way you force her to either back up or take a risk and go in, which is where Parasoul can take the advantage I think.
 
I don't think meeting Fukua in the air is a good idea.

Preemptively jumping on the other hand.....Sure, I've gotten a few preemptive jump back HK Tear into HPs to land.

This matchup will probably bother alot of Parasouls near the start of their time playing this matchup because as the Parasoul you generally do not want to jump. It seems like Preemtive jumping, wither dash jumping or jumping back is the solution, at least for now.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Fukua can zone her, has a really easy time getting into the Pillar deadspace, can reliably crossup with L.Dart, can reaction punish Tearshots with Super, can't be zoned with Tosses due to just jumping out of them into Airfireball, j.HK beats Para's air to air options (and she doesn't really have anything good to press on the ground), Para can't close distance fast enough to keep up with s.HK xx things, etc

Not very fun.
I've run this match with loli plenty and If you are getting punished for teardrop you really shouldn't have tearshot. I know that sounds crass but the spaces that she normally controls change in this match. The same is true about her normals. As parasoul you actually do not want to be full screen against her. you want to be really close or just outside J.hk range. You definitely can air to air her but you need to be above her or no dice. Learn the range on her j.hk because that is how you will likely lose trying to air to air. Also you need to use the tear shots that reflect off the ground to control her space. It is definitely doable but you have to approach it differently. I've noticed a lot of Parasoul matchups don't change too much as far as your powerful zones are concerned and this upsets that but there are new zones at your disposal.
 
That's why I mentioned predicting her approach. If you let her get high in the air her j.HK/j.MK will be difficult to challenge. But Parasoul has fantastic air normals so you can swat Fukua with a j.MP/j.LP/j.HP by spacing yourself properly.

Fukua has some great downward angled air normals but nothing that can close to compete with Parasoul's air to air priority.
 
As far as the fireball goes I was trying it out and whenever you start charge partitioning you will out pace her in the fireball war. People usually overcharge the tearshot but you have to remember to mix in the angled ones too to catch jumps
 
I just tiger knee jp. hp it works wonders for fukua's being annoying
 
also learn to watch strings. If you see block Fukua S.Rh you are not going to have enough advantage to do much but if they try to shadow off of anything else they are able to be grabbed. Lab time is your friend. Clones are supposed to be projectiles so the egret should block them. If not that could be something for Mike to look at.
 
If they're true projectiles, why don't they block other projectiles?
 
I'm not sure, that's why I say he might want to revisit it. He said they were supposed to be so bella could reflect them and they are supposed to count as projectiles but maybe they don't gain a hit box until they are in contact with another character hurtbox and then they gain the properties. That would allow the reflect but even so I think it should count for the egret. If it activates on proximity that would be why it doesn't work. Only reflect would be able to actually catch it that close.
 
Anyone know how to make the announcer say "Super effective" at the end of the match?
 
Fukua's clones became projectiles to prevent burst baiting with them because it was dumb.

Right @MegamanDS
 
gllt said:
Fukua's clones became projectiles to prevent burst baiting with them because it was dumb.

Right @MegamanDS
Not sure if I'm missing the troll here but they burst bait just fine. And I know you have to get a perfect for it but are there conditions to make him say it each time?
 
Prototype said:
Not sure if I'm missing the troll here but they burst bait just fine. And I know you have to get a perfect for it but are there conditions to make him say it each time?

If you trigger burst with a projectile, the opponent can still act before hitting the ground. So, if clones act as a projectile, you can't do burst bait setups that allow you to get a full combo if the bait is taken.
 
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I was just running a set up in training mode and they were still not able to block after the burst so be careful with that i guess then.
 
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