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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

That's why we kept getting blown up by sonicfox ~_~ But yeah Filia not being top 3 doesn't mean she's bad, I just think other characters are better.
 
Tell me how this thread is different than the other tier thread, otherwise I'm locking this one.
 
Why not fuse 'em or something?

You can do that right
 
You could just merge them...
 
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Elda Taluda said:
I didn't realize soooo many people think that PW is the worst character (hands down to some people it seems). I need to change that.

@MarcusSoul Glad to have another person in the community!
I'm honestly curious about your assessment of the character considering you're probably the best Painwheel player right now and you've been doing well against what are generally considered her bad matchups. Where would you rank her and what would you say her good matchups (if any) are?
Mr. X said:
Tell me how this thread is different than the other tier thread, otherwise I'm locking this one.
A gameplay discussion thread? People are on topic? I WILL LOCK THIS.
 
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Squire Grooktook said:
I'm no pro, but I don't quite get why people say "Fillia doesn't have a good neutral game". Her hitboxes seem pretty good + one of the fastest/most mobile characters + pretty decent utility in various situations.
Well, her hitboxes actually suffer somewhat compared to other characters. Parasoul has disjointed everything, Valentine has lots of disjointed attacks, Fortune has the head, Peacock has guns--- even Cerebella's hitboxes are pretty stellar in comparison, with s.LK, c.LK (she leans back so far that Filia's j.HK had to be widened so it would actually connect against her), Titan Knuckle, j.LK, j.MP, and a few others. She doesn't have a braindead "deal with this move" button like Double j.HP/PW j.MP, and outside of s.HP her primary Big Red moves have huge weakpoints (j.HP loses to crouching jab, j.HK loses to standing jab at iad height and loses any air-to-air situation). On top of that she has the worst throw hitboxes in the game (her air throw in particular is extremely receded inside her body unlike the rest of the cast) and she lost her only "leg up" trick when her dash hurtbox got stretched to hit the floor (contrast: Val's backdash beats most character's grounded mixup options because she's immune to lows and throws).
 
gonna lock threads for no reason great forum looool

Squire Grooktook said:
I'm no pro, but I don't quite get why people say "Fillia doesn't have a good neutral game". Her hitboxes seem pretty good + one of the fastest/most mobile characters + pretty decent utility in various situations.
RgYdZR3.png


????
 
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Mods, in all honesty, it's way way easier to browse a bunch of general topic threads than it is to root through a single General Discussion thread when looking for specific posts. It's actually pretty unnecessary, the way threads are constantly locked and merged here. Shit isn't THAT redundant.

dekillsage said:
gonna lock threads for no reason great forum looool


RgYdZR3.png


????
To be fair, this move looks scary if you haven't seen its hitbox. It's like the anti-Painwheel j.HK.
 
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True. Though when it comes to hitboxes Filia's st.hp and j.hk are pretty freaking incredible.
A character who resets with a hard move and then combos into more hard moves for max damage ~_~
 
Because at some point, Mike decided Filia's jHK hitbox wasn't wide enough.
 
DDB said:
Because at some point, Mike decided Filia's jHK hitbox wasn't wide enough.
To be fair the old hitbox was whiffing in situations where visually it looked like it should have hit.
 
The first question would be what you guys are trying to rate here. Matchups? That's generally what a matchup chart is for.
Tier Lists IMO take into consideration the entire package (DHC options, assists, team synergies, etc)

And yeah, while solo Filia isn't very impressive -and even assisted Filia doesn't exactly have a stellar neutral game-, what she brings to the table in other areas (DHC to Gregor into full combo from anywhere, DHC to Fenrir, killing characters off a single touch, that corner game, j.HK mixups blatantly dodging reversals, Updo and Hairball assist, not being invalidated by Peacock, one of the top defences so she rarely dies without doing anything, tbc) is more than enough for me to rate her as Toptier.
 
WrestlerGuile said:
After some research, here is my tier list in terms of utilization of tools, from easiest to hardest:
Filia(I have nothing to say)
Parasoul(Tears and Mary Poppins, command normals, especially air commands)
Double(Contrary to popular belief, barrel combos are hard to use, but she's very reset heavy as well)
Valentine(Vials, her DP Super, her LVL 5)
Miss Fortune(headless can be easy, but her DP move is hard to apply in a combo)
Fukua(although, this is deBETAble)
Painwheel(especially Hatred Install)
Big Band(resisting the use of Sound Stun till the right time)
Cerebella(Hit-grabs and run moves)
Squigly(stancel)
Peacock(Using both rushdown and zoning Peacock is not easy to attain)

No

Filia, Parasoul, Fortune and Big Band have the highest potential execution barriers. What I mean by that is if you want to get to the very top of those characters' potential, you will need to be wave dashing super fast, negative edging your tear and head placements, or having 3s level parry defense.

Peacock and Squigly's potential is deep, but mainly reliant on reading the game and finding space to do your stuff; building charge or calling shadows/bombs etc.
 
ClarenceMage said:
git gud
Fine, I will come back and do some research the hard way, maining everyone. I'm guessing Painwheel is in the same boat as Peacock and Squigly, needing to read your opponents chances of making mistakes and capitalizing on them. So making a tier based on utilization is much more deep than I thought, I wonder who can make one...
 
Age said:
No

Filia, Parasoul, Fortune and Big Band have the highest potential execution barriers. What I mean by that is if you want to get to the very top of those characters' potential, you will need to be wave dashing super fast, zato -samayour tear and head placements, or having 3s level parry defense.

Peacock and Squigly's potential is deep, but mainly reliant on reading the game and finding space to do your stuff; building charge or calling shadows/bombs etc.

fixed
 
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WrestlerGuile said:
Fine, I will come back and do some research the hard way, maining everyone. I'm guessing Painwheel is in the same boat as Peacock and Squigly, needing to read your opponents chances of making mistakes and capitalizing on them. So making a tier based on utilization is much more deep than I thought, I wonder who can make one...

It is better to develop your first three characters to a highly competent degree first rather than trying to master everyone at the same time in my opinion - that way, you will have an easier time picking other characters up since you've gained skills with the others beforehand.
 
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My less extreme, hopefully less biased, yet relatively unchanged view on PW.

It isn't that she is bad. She's not. She has a few matches that are rough for her (Parasoul), but most of her MU are fairly close. That said, she is 100% on the defensive and reliant on an opponents mistake to really shine. She feels like a character with a role performed better by other characters. Val, for example, has better mobility in most cases, a mixup game on par with PW's, the ability to confirm from just about anywhere, and damage that isn't quite on par with PWs but close (and if the Val combo thread is to be believed, it might actually be higher in the corner).

Add to that fairly large holes (no decent reversal is a biggie as is her generally low start up) and I think she's definitely low tier.

Lastly, while popularity isn't a perfect metric and a "monster" character like PW will likely always be less popular, I think it is also a truism that people gravitate naturally toward characters with high reward for low effort. Solo PW is almost completely gone with most of us looking at teams which at least speaks to her difficulty as a viable solo.

A lot of her issues can be sorted in a team though. I think Elda et al speaks to that.
 
The problem with that is Painwheel is so difficult to slot properly onto a team, despite have the safest DHC in the game. On top of everything, she is a demanding character and pretty much needs a DP assist as well as really really liking a lockdown/good mixup assist.
 
Painwheel's strengths are greatly boosted on a team - if you have painwheel second, for instance in Soul/Wheel/Dub then you can very easily make a set play of Bikes or Shot->Hatred Intall->call assist for a gross 50/50 into pressure, and having the two invincible assists to base your neutral around with Painwheel can make baiting and setting up offense easier. It's weird, with flight and assists she plays as the most "footsie" playstyle in the whole cast, able to coax people into making a move then counterpoking with assists, or capitalising on hesitation by calling assists ontop of people.

I agree with the evaluation that Painwheel feels like a mid tier character. Not as abusive as the top tier, but still very strong when she gets her ball rolling.
 
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I'd be curious how you'd evaluate Val vs PW on a team (relative strengths and weaknesses).

And/or address the (over-generalized) statement that virtually anything PW can do, Val can do as well or better.

Also, didn't HI as an assist take a not-so-insignificant nerf?
 
Spencer said:
I'd be curious how you'd evaluate Val vs PW on a team (relative strengths and weaknesses).

And/or address the (over-generalized) statement that virtually anything PW can do, Val can do as well or better.

Also, didn't HI as an assist take a not-so-insignificant nerf?


You mean not being able to DHC safely without making the opponent block the first super? That shouldn't really matter. Personally, I think PW is a better support character than Val, if nothing else. Val's only useful position on a team is point, imo.

Also, being able to stay around super jump height a lot longer while still having access to assists, a better projectile and ability to follow it up (sometimes even confirm into a combo), more multi-hit normals + Flight cancel to make it harder to get her off of you even without a lock-down assist (yes, I know about PBGC), armor as a counter vs options Val would have to block/avoid (any other armored move, certain air-to-air attacks, AA assists). Then there's HI Painwheel, which is just so much better.

She has her strengths.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
It's weird, with flight and assists she plays as the most "footsie" playstyle in the whole cast, able to coax people into making a move then counterpoking with assists, or capitalising on hesitation by calling assists ontop of people.


Whoa, you just described my painwheel playstyle PERFECTLY. Haha, you would know. But yeah i feel like shes midtier "now" she could definitely use some buffs... But then again... All mid tiers would be happy with a buff or 2.

She isnt the hot garbage that she once was, that at least is for sure.
Also, shes pretty easy to place on a team imho. Shes been on every team ive ever made in either the second spot or first spot.


One thing that is really annoying about this thread though is the fact that when talking about characters, some people are talking about different characters even though the character is the same.. solo pw is not pw plus pillar assist. These are almost completely different characters.
 
Dime_x said:
One thing that is really annoying about this thread though is the fact that when talking about characters, some people are talking about different characters even though the character is the same.. solo pw is not pw plus pillar assist. These are almost completely different characters.

Everybody improves with an assist, Dime. I think what really should be discussed is what the character brings alone, then add on what assists you think she needs to be rounded out. Like, Solo Peacock and Peacock + Pillar are different (AA, reversal and mix-up tool for teleport), but you still have to discuss what Peacock can do on her own.
 
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While it is true Valentine mostly only works as a point, she is a very, very easy point to cater for. Painwheel only seems to work on point/point setups made specifically for her to work. She CAN work as a lone point but you still have to make the team specifically to set her up properly. Her poor round start also doesn't help that situation.

She's a character that wants 2 assists but has poor round start and likes to spend meter but is poor at building it.

Calling Painwheel mid tier is fine, I guess if you are talking about relative to other games. I rate her low because I rate all the other characters higher than her. She has more noticeable flaws, that doesn't mean I think she is terrible, like Phoenix Wright or Twelve or Roll or whatever, it means I think all the other characters in this game are better than her.
 
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View619 said:
Everybody improves with an assist, Dime. I think what really should be discussed is what the character brings alone, then add on what assists you think she needs to be rounded out. Like, Solo Peacock and Peacock + Pillar are different (AA, reversal and mix-up tool for teleport), but you still have to discuss what Peacock can do on her own.
If thats how you want to do it then that, specifically, should be how its done... And only that way. A separate thread would probably be better for that. Because you would mostly be talking about solo, in a game that is mostly not solo...

I already listed painwheels strengths and weaknesses as i see them. Most of those can easily be transferred to solo only. But remember that one of the biggest drawbacks to what you suggest is the fact that assists skew things so much. I mean val is where she is in the top tier almost completely because she converts from assists so well, and painwheel being low (in other peoples minds) is also almost exclusively because pw doesnt convert assists well.


I do think that what you say has merit, i just dont really know if its appropriate here in this thread that already has trouble getting anything done, much less staying on topic.
 
What about tiers based on position (Point, middle, anchor)?
 
valentine best solo character...
someone's not telling me something
 
Fortune bottom 4, yep, looks about right.
 
She's not that popular and she has the second least amount of votes, calm down

It's also day 1
 
Keep in mind, PW+Fortune just won probably the 2nd biggest SG tournament of the year.

Also even this list is pretty compressed. Only a 2 point gap between the top and the bottom.
 
Jason said:
Keep in mind, PW+Fortune just won probably the 2nd biggest SG tournament of the year.

Also even this list is pretty compressed. Only a 2 point gap between the top and the bottom.
... and?

Xian won SF4 at Evo 2013 with Gen and a lot of people still don't consider him top tier.
 
Jason said:
Keep in mind, PW+Fortune just won probably the 2nd biggest SG tournament of the year.

Also even this list is pretty compressed. Only a 2 point gap between the top and the bottom.
You mean Elda Taluda won probably the 2nd biggest SG tournament of the year?

(I actually haven't watched it yet, but the point stands)
 
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Painwheel is godly in the right hands, to bad i've only met one player with said hands
 
I think people underrate Painwheel's offense and neutral capabilities a bit...
but she's still in the bottom half of the cast (read: she's still good because no character in this game is bad... just others are better at being good). Taluda's performance was more of just his skill, tech, and overall solid play than character strength. 'Least that's what I think.
 
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