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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

keninblack said:
Peacock/Bella is the best Peacock team.

The synergy, damage, and all that gucci shit you get from it is unreal.

Its like one if not the only viable duo left tbh.
What about Peacock/Big Band/Bella?
 
Tomo009 said:
What about Peacock/Big Band/Bella?

The amount of damage and health you get from Peacock with Bella H LnL duo probably trumps the trio option.
 
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View619 said:
The amount of damage and health you get from Peacock with Bella H LnL duo probably trumps the trio option.
Maybe it's because I see Peacock more as a setup character than a character who only wants to run away all the time, but I think she benefits from a team of 3 just like everyone else. Her teams of 2 are certainly viable but not better in my opinion. Peacock with LnL has a huuuuuuge deadzone that I wouldn't like dealing with when playing Peacock.

I like running
cock/HP knuckle/cerecopter

Gives Peacock stupid coverage and fullscreen mixup conversions much better than usual. Still pretty much kills teams of 2 in a couple of resets or even 1 reset and some chip/incidental damage. Gives you all the safety benefits of a 3 character team. BB at advantage with cerecoter is a scary thing.
 
Peacock doesn't only want to run away though. She can get set-up with bombs or LnL and go in using that. Force you to block something and stay grounded, then teleport in backed by a bomb or LnL. She also gets full screen cross-ups with H LnL thanks to the screen dragging assists, so it really doesn't take much to get started.

Then you have Argus xx Dynamo to get Bella in, and Peacock builds meter very quickly so it's a threat sooner than you think. Basically, you have to be weary of the chip and the fact that she can put you in a bad spot while you chase her, all while dealing with duo damage output (possibly chip damage into a one combo death for a trio).

The only real weakness I see with this team is that the defense is pretty weak (H LnL isn't that great as a defensive tool).
 
View619 said:
Peacock doesn't only want to run away though. She can get set-up with bombs or LnL and go in using that. Force you to block something and stay grounded, then teleport in backed by a bomb or LnL. She also gets full screen cross-ups with H LnL thanks to the screen dragging assists, so it really doesn't take much to get started.

Then you have Argus xx Dynamo to get Bella in, and Peacock builds meter very quickly so it's a threat sooner than you think. Basically, you have to be weary of the chip and the fact that she can put you in a bad spot while you chase her, all while dealing with duo damage output (possibly chip damage into a one combo death for a trio).

The only real weakness I see with this team is that the defense is pretty weak (H LnL isn't that great as a defensive tool).
So it functions as a bit of a win more team, I guess if your game plan is to never let them close the team would be quite effective, I prefer a more rounded team though. I do similar full screen shenanigans with HP knuckle + teleport. HP knuckle also fills up so much screen space. Argus > SSJ also works from significantly further ranges than Dynamo meaning you can guarantee kills from more situations.

The main reason to go for a team of 2, would obviously be chip. Cock's combo damage is high enough that the damage boost isn't that major there. I don't really rely much on chip when I play Peacock, I play pretty defensively in general but I am really trying to get the safe mixups into huge Cock damage.
 
Sorry, I meant Argus xx Diamond, not Dynamo. Yeah, I like a trio with an assist to cover horizontal and vertical space as well (Peacock/Parasol/Bella for me), just pointing out some reasons to stay Peacok/Bella as a duo.
 
Something i wanted to touch on but didnt think it warrants its own thread:


Characters in sg seem to be divided into a few different categories as far as movement is concerned. The most powerful or most obvious seem to be characters that can move horizontally really well (filia) and ones that can move vertically really well (squigly) all characters can do both but some such as the 2 aforementioned do it really well... So the first question is.... Does this affect their tier placement? Everyone thinks squigly is hot garbage cause shes so damn slow as far as horizontal speed is concerned... But shes really fast at going up and down... Making her hard to hit and giving her ample opportunities to set up divekicks on opposing players trying to rush her down.


And my second question is... How to deal with double jump style characters such as squigly or val that can reach super high up airspace where their approach or retreat cant be contested? I just lost a sickening set to gfarmers squigly band team 18-0. The lag was terrible so that has something to do with it... But seriously i couldnt really figure out how to get to squigly. Super jumping wasnt working, flying in wasnt working, running in would/could get me brass knuckled or divekicked... It was very frustrating and it may be a specific weakness of team pali... Or not. But i dont have any real solid answers for people that up back turtle from around 3/4 screen or so... Any advice? Should i take these questions to gameplay instead? Is squiglys zoning hard to counter when she has brass backing her up?


I dont know but all of my recent losses are to people/teams that upback/hyper zone me all day so figuring out how to fight this playstyle is extremely important.
 
keninblack said:
Valentine is the best character because the key in this games offense is to be above the opponent.

FUCK VALENTINE HAS AN AIRDASH THAT MOVES HER UPWARD.

Im damp


We've finally got a good val out here in au.... Uses team duck. And we had an offline meetup a couple of days ago. To make a long story short, i thought val was definitely top tier before... But now i KNOW IT. For the reasons you just described. He could much more easily make mistakes in zoning and just runaway by jumping backwards and then airdashing in, or just double jump backwards etc etc. This combined with her run speed for moving forward, ability to capitilize off any assist, and unseeable low/throw/high resets and corner burst baits made playing against her feel.... Unfair. The first time ive felt that way playing sg besides like anchor sde double with 4 meters. I played duck and tj at last years evo during casuals, peck, lots of stupid peacocks... Tood and worldjem... Etc etc... Never once felt like battles that couldnt be won. But this val and gfarmers squigly really make things feel bad. It could be me or my team certainly. But yeah... Just kinda confused about sg right now. I do think you are absolutely correct about being above people. Id say a caveat to that is a characters ability to keep people from getting above them is also stupidly important.


But not exactly sure where to go from here.
 
Shoutouts to double jump + airdash (which sends her up higher) + calling assist.

Also, I'm beginning to think that Fortune is probably on the bottom end of the better half of the cast now. Dealing with the head is much easier, loss of invincible Fiber Upper when headless is huge, she still loses to basically everyone air-to-air in a game full of aerial footsies (and now headless can't really anti-air... Sneeze is not a reliable option), and all of her matchups got worse. Especially against Peacock and /sorta/ Bella.

She still has great mobility, offensive pressure, and corner carry, though. Headless slide is extremely underused, and getting an opponent sandwiched in the corner is scary.
 
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^^ i can totally agree with that.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Shoutouts to double jump + airdash (which sends her up higher) + calling assist.

Also, I'm beginning to think that Fortune is probably on the bottom end of the better half of the cast now. Dealing with the head is much easier, loss of invincible Fiber Upper when headless is huge, she still loses to basically everyone air-to-air in a game full of aerial footsies (and now headless can't really anti-air... Sneeze is not a reliable option), and all of her matchups got worse. Especially against Peacock and /sorta/ Bella.

She still has great mobility, offensive pressure, and corner carry, though. Headless slide is extremely underused, and getting an opponent sandwiched in the corner is scary.
Yeah, trick 'em into thinking she's bottom.

Get da buffs.
 
Val can get to super jump height easily, call an assist and still get the confirm. Yeah, that's pretty damn good.
 
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So I'm trying to run a Fukua/Big band team, and it does me alright, seems pretty solid. But in contrast, I get blown up by peacock/double/parasoul teams with little to no options to getting in without eating a LOT of damage. comparing movesets, as long as peacock stays on the field, big bands armor is worthless and fukua can't outzone her.
 
Peacock can't play her normal game against Band, most of it is landing occasionally to throw a bomb and holding H SOID. Learn how to use Giant Step effectively and that match becomes a lot easier. Also, Fukua utilizing air fire balls mixed with rushing in does pretty well. Just don't run face first into Peacock's stuff.
 
that works well enough without double coming out with hornet bomber every 200 frames or so. it's not solo peacock I have great troubles with, it's that combination. every time I tried giant step I was punished by double pretty hard. ended up getting pecked to death six times in a row from this combination.
 
I read a number of pages, but not all. Just out of curiosity, where do you think Fukua, Sqiggley & Band rate? Didn't see them in the older posts. Thanks-
 
What does anyone think of this tier list I found and how much has it changed?

http://ukyorulz.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/videogames-updated-skullgirls-tier-list/

Its extremely outdated (made more than a year ago) and excludes the DLC chars, but I think it explained the placements very well, and at least most if not all of the stuff it says still seems to apply to this day even with patches and new characters coming.

The only section I did not understand very well was Cerebella's. I understood her strengths, but not her weaknesses. All it said was that while she has tools for mbilty and combos that other FG Grapplers don't have, they are too situational to overcome a same problem all grapplers still share including her: Struggling with zoning and characters who can keep her out so she can't get close enough to do her setups. That's.. it? That's her main weakness and the only one worth noting (though a significant one)? Aside from being an unorthodox grappler with unique tools and assists, I honestly don't know Bella very well, her weaknesses especially.
 
Lol Valentine was never bottom tier.

At least he put Fortune top.... back then.
 
@Funkermonster

I dont know if it is in this thread or an old tier thread... But ukyos tiers were argued at length when he released the tier list.
 
I sincerely feel like there are only S tier characters in this game.
 
That's because you play Val/Fillia!

But really, you are playing the character with no real weakness, Val fights honestly, I guess but you have no bad matchups. The tiers in Skullgirls are definitely close, but there are some things that are kind of obvious, like Valentine being just a bit better than everyone else now that Fortune has been tamed a bit.
 
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I play Big band, squigly, dabbled in parasoul, played painwheel and ms fortune. I feel the same strength from all of those. Granted its not in the same places that's what makes them different characters but the same level. And valentine tends to struggle against painwheel as far as matchups go due to their styles of approach.
 
Prototype said:
Granted its not in the same places that's what makes them different characters but the same level. And valentine tends to struggle against painwheel as far as matchups go due to their styles of approach.


The fact that it isnt in the same places is what makes one character better than another. Painwheel is good on hit and has great corner combos... But you have to hit them first... Thats the problem.

Squigly is really good with 2 charges...


Peacock is good fullscreen.


Val is good the instant she gets on point, her being a mobile assist dispenser and being able to call assists from higher up than any character plus being able to convert those assists into full corner carry combo from like any position on the screen, plus being able to advance forward almost for free, via double jump airdash j.mk...

Her "weaknesse"s are few and far between. The no reversal weakness shored up by having meter, the airthrow conversion weakness shored up by using meter and the slightly lower damage weakness shored up with poison vials and assist combos.
 
Valentine struggles against Fukua? Valentine is one of her worst matchups. (Unless you mean you play Fukua too)

Painwheel doesn't win the matchup against Val. Val can outspace PW with defensive air mobility all the time and stay inside the range that stingers aren't a viable threat. Painwheel doesn't really have an answer for a Valentine making good use of air mobility, j.HK and j.MP other than hatred install which is 2 meters just to be able to play neutral with Val. It certainly isn't a hopeless matchup, but Painwheel doesn't like it, the only matchup I can think of that Painwheel kinda does like is Fortune.
 
Tomo009 said:
Valentine struggles against Fukua? Valentine is one of her worst matchups. (Unless you mean you play Fukua too)

Painwheel doesn't win the matchup against Val. Val can outspace PW with defensive air mobility all the time and stay inside the range that stingers aren't a viable threat. Painwheel doesn't really have an answer for a Valentine making good use of air mobility, j.HK and j.MP other than hatred install which is 2 meters just to be able to play neutral with Val. It certainly isn't a hopeless matchup, but Painwheel doesn't like it, the only matchup I can think of that Painwheel kinda does like is Fortune.
Yeah, Val basically makes zoning irrelevant, and it doesn't help that she excels in the throw game which is Fukua's weakness.

Painwheel likes the Filia matchup ever so slightly. PW has a tough time maintaining pressure, but she outright wins in neutral and can just go for damage/sliding knockdowns instead of resets. If Filia starts hitting PW, then she can restrict her biggest options (throw, Thresher) and force her to guess her way out of Reset Hell. 55/45 in PW's favor but that's basically the best she gets.
 
I did not mean that she struggles against fukua I also play fukua. But making zoning irrelevant is very strong language. The only Fukua that should have a hard time trying to keep her out is one that can't find the M.Clone input. But diversity and weakness are two very different things. Everyone other than peacock has to hit them first to be highly effective and I have seen a fair amount of very aggressive peacocks at that. No she has no glaring weakness but to be fair I don't see a lot of others either because the system itself eases that so much. PBGC. (please do this, I see so little of it and it makes things so much easier) It's difficult to land a hit as Painwheel and its difficult to land it as val. Both of these become much easier with assists. These are point characters in design.

Painwheel Most definitely fights val the easiest of the crew. Quick backward momentum to bait air to air attempts which place her directly below painwheel. This also allows good painwheels to 'walk' her to the corner. Armored air nomal to contest air to air attempts with flight cancels so multiple uses. Seriously if that is how the painwheels you play against are approaching that then they are doing it wrong.

Squigly does not need two charges to be good. That's mean hurtful and unfair to her.

I have played all of these characters against competent valentines and as a generalized thing I don't see people really taking advantage of their tools. I don't know if It is a lack of knowlege of the particular players or what but answers are there.
 
Backing the opponent into the corner is Val's thing, not Painwheel's. Valentine has no need to run head long into Painwheel, just stay at mid range, being the assist turret that she is, pushing Painwheel back to the corner and smothering her there. If Painwheel approaches, Val can just jump back j.HK then maybe dash in j.MP depending on the situation. Risk? Practically 0, reward? Potentially momentum on Painwheels terrible, terrible defence. If you call defence a weakness of Valentine's, Painwheel's is worse.

Armour is near useless against Val, I dunno what Valentines you play with Painwheel or what Painwheels you play with Val, but j.HK is the bane of armour, Painwheel needs to position herself above you take some damage in armour then spend meter for Thresher to make it useful.

Valentine has to take no real risks, Painwheel NEEDS to take huge risks. Otherwise Painwheel ends up in the corner. She will keep backing up due to her inferior mobility and need to space her j.MP as her only poking tool in the matchup.

I think this is the first time I've seen someone say Painwheel beats Valentine. I've seen people argue Painwheel is about equal with Fortune, Fillia or Cerebella, but never Valentine.
 
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Your forward air dash will put you above PW. PW is more likely to back herself into a corner than vice versa since she's constantly having to fly backwards to keep spacing.

Hell, Val virtually is PW with easier confirms, more options at the various ranges, more air mobility, and better meter gain. I've asked a thousand times, and no one gives me an answer. Why choose Painwheel over Valentine (excluding aesthetics)?

I'll buy that this game is remarkably well balanced, but there are definitely various levels of "good" in this game.
 
Spencer said:
Why choose Painwheel over Valentine (excluding aesthetics)?

Painwheel has bonkers mixups that don't just boil down to "Is he gonna dash and cross me up? Is he gonna grab after jMP/jHK/crHP?" She can carry to the corner from practically anywhere if she sacrifices some of her damage and her corner game is silly(-a slide)

Everyone was giving me a hard time at Girly's tournament for playing PW so I'm probably wrong but I think PW has more tools than people give her credit for.
 
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@Tomo009
@Prototype

Yeah exactly. Painwheel does kinda do well against val as far as mobility goes... But its an uphill battle because of all the things that val can abuse against painwheel once val understands the matchup and painwheels weaknesses.



Painwheels weaknesses as far as the matchup goes:


Val can double jump over painwheel and gain height priority, painwheel cant do this to val.
Val can call assist from double jump height which is super jump height... Painwheel can not do this.
Val can attack the space directly in front of her air to air via j.mk. Painwheels only facsimile is fully charged j.hp which is incredibly slow and prone to being broken by updo or hornet bomber assist of they are using assists, and if not using assists, vals j.mk will generally clean it out wither way, plus val can do fun stuff like jump forward j.mk xx airdash j.mk for really hard to avoid pressure.
Neither characters fireballs are very great in the matchup with one real exception: vals fireballs have fast startup so they can protect assist calls decently... Painwheels fireball startup is super slow and the fireball itself isnt that fast either making it hard for pw to protect assists with fireballs like val.
Val baits assists flatout ten times better than painwheel ever could because val has a double jump and double jumps allow block. There is no comparison to flight here, double jump wins all day, its faster because it has no startup and it can be blocked during unlike flight.
Val converts assists flatout ten times better than painwheel... I shouldnt even have to use an example here.. Its that obvious.
Vals ground mobility shits all over painwheels ground mobility
Vals air priority is higher than painwheels, her air move speed is better, painwheel only trumps val as far as range is concerned and then its via a slow charged j.hp or an air to ground j.mp. Painwheel has no long range quick air to airs which is a huge point of abuse in the matchup.
Vals flatliner is a better reversal than deathcrawl on the ground, painwheel definitely gets the nod in the air with thresher though. However vals flatliner has the same motion in the air as on the ground so absolutely zero thought is required whereas with painwheel you will get out an install for mashing thresher close to the ground and getting ground reset... So it takes actual knowledge of the state you will be in ... Which is harder and therefor defense isnt as good... But, thresher is a confirm so... All in all probably still in pw favor for aerial reset defense.


-just off the top of my head.

Painwheel can put up a decent fight against val... But its a war of attrition that painwheel loses at intermediate levels. At high level painwheel gets fucking gacked on by val.
 
Okay from reading this post it has become painfully obvious you guys don't encounter painhweels that feint. Jumping and dashing sacrifices that dash that you need to convert to a meaningful hit outside of ekg which means no corner pressure. I never liked the arguement of ease being a balancing mechanic because it isn't, impossibility is. Regardless of if you have had it done to you or not Val can absolutely overextend. there is a close-mid range where she does not want to be and the best thing to put her in that range is the have her attempt the tactics you have above. You also have to take into account which assists we are talking about here because that changes the ranges also. IS PW running walking walking george? Beat Extend? Pillar? updo? Which version? A train? she can call assists from flight you know.
J.hk is great if you play against a PW that doesn't know her spacing. But who is baiting out who's assist also falls under which assist, counter calling is a thing and it happens along with assist matchups.
for real though guys harder = not as good this mindset will limit everyone as a player and should be abandoned.

I feel we need to clarify as the comments have gotten cloudy. Are we debating the matchup Solo v solo. With assist, which assist. Or a stat page of pro's and cons?
 
PW covers her huge holes a lot better with an assist, but I'd still say if you are looking to play competitively that you'd be better picking up Valentine unless you are willing to limit your team selection significantly and build a team entirely around PW. Of course, when I compare characters I usually compare solo since assists will be used to cover holes.

That said @Prototype I'd be curious about the feints that you are talking about. I'd love for you to solve my "PW has a tough time getting in" problem.

@CorpseFeast
You bring up good points. Corner damage is her thing. She can touch 10k with A-Train and I can get her to 9k using Squig's c.hp as an assist. I just don't think her corner damage is enough to build a character around, and I think you over state her mix ups. They are great, don't get me wrong... but Val's no slouch in the mix up department herself not to mention that she has an easy cross-up threat from a neutral jump in while PWs biggest weakness is in her approach. Getting that first hit is a tricky fucking thing.

I might concede that once confirmed, PW is a better bet than Val, but Val has the stronger neutral which is generally where this game is won or lost.
 
Prototype said:
It's difficult to land a hit as Painwheel and its difficult to land it as val. Both of these become much easier with assists. These are point characters in design.

Painwheel Most definitely fights val the easiest of the crew. Quick backward momentum to bait air to air attempts which place her directly below painwheel. This also allows good painwheels to 'walk' her to the corner. Armored air nomal to contest air to air attempts with flight cancels so multiple uses. Seriously if that is how the painwheels you play against are approaching that then they are doing it wrong.

Squigly does not need two charges to be good. That's mean hurtful and unfair to her.

I have played all of these characters against competent valentines and as a generalized thing I don't see people really taking advantage of their tools. I don't know if It is a lack of knowlege of the particular players or what but answers are there.

This is the post that im arguing about. And these points that you make specifically:

Painwheel does not get much better at confirming once she has an assist, val gets astronomically better at confirming once she has an assist. This is because of vals fast run startup speed versus painwheels SLOOOOOOOW dash startup speed combined with painwheels lack of range on her dash and vals infinite range on her run. Comparing the 2 and coming up with "relatively equal" just seems flatout wrong to me. If I'm wrong pls let me know the assists that painwheel uses that make her confirm life better or her pressure life, or her get in life better... Because val with a combo of updo and mk bomber has absolutely no weaknesses at neutral. Painwheel with the same assist loadout cannot confirm from mk bomber consistently midscreen and that is a huge point of contention and imbalance in the matchup. The other point of contention is that painwheel cannot confirm off of updo while jumping backwards midscreen if she calls updo just as she leaves the ground... If pw wants the confirm she needs to just sit there. Val also corner carries with a resulting advantage in the corner from any confirm from basically any distance.. So one combo with val = cornered. Also, val has waaaaaaay better burst baits than pw currently has. Ive tried to find solid ones but they are few and far between, with the threat of vals burst bait, val is free to just fucking go ham on the low /throw mixups with little fear repercussion. If painwheel or anyone else for that matter tries to reversal out and gets caught by the burst bait... It is ALWAYS a dead character. Unless the val drops the combo. Thats powerful mindgames and better than anything painwheel currently has on her reset offense.

Where is painwheels quick backward momentum? Painwheel is slow in flight and val can easily pressure painwheel air to air with things like jump or dash jump j.mk xx airdash j.hp plus mk bomber or some such.
Painwheel also has a super slow dash backwards so the only thing i can see being fast backing is flight and flight is something that val just straight up kills with all her airdash stuff plus multihits to kill air armor.

As far as pw getting air armor xx fly air armor... What move are you pressuring painwheel with? J.hp? Only use that if painwheel is off assist or if you call an assist with it. Cause if you do.. It will always break armor. As far as feinting armor it isnt going to get pw far in the matchup at all. Ive used armor feints a lot... They dont work. If i feint val goes in and kills me, if i dont feint val goes in and kills me... Armor isnt something val really gives any shits about as long as she uses something besides j.hp

As far as pbgc goes, its one of the things that the australia region is really good at... Its to the point that i cant even use rote confirms against people on block for fear of pbgc through my blockstring... So no need to tell us to use it... Most of the high level players here do... Its relatively easy.
 
Prototype said:
Okay from reading this post it has become painfully obvious you guys don't encounter painhweels that feint. Jumping and dashing sacrifices that dash that you need to convert to a meaningful hit outside of ekg which means no corner pressure. I never liked the arguement of ease being a balancing mechanic because it isn't, impossibility is. Regardless of if you have had it done to you or not Val can absolutely overextend. there is a close-mid range where she does not want to be and the best thing to put her in that range is the have her attempt the tactics you have above. You also have to take into account which assists we are talking about here because that changes the ranges also. IS PW running walking walking george? Beat Extend? Pillar? updo? Which version? A train? she can call assists from flight you know.
J.hk is great if you play against a PW that doesn't know her spacing. But who is baiting out who's assist also falls under which assist, counter calling is a thing and it happens along with assist matchups.
for real though guys harder = not as good this mindset will limit everyone as a player and should be abandoned.

I feel we need to clarify as the comments have gotten cloudy. Are we debating the matchup Solo v solo. With assist, which assist. Or a stat page of pro's and cons?
You realise everything you just mentioned as a strength for Painwheel applies to Valentine but tenfold?

Valentine is the best at baiting in the game (it's kinda her thing, you know, she abuses her safe mobility options leaving gaps that look punishable but she still has a way to get out and call assist, pushing you into the corner)

Valentine is constantly pushing Painwheel backward because Valentine is a hover tank and Painwheel is stuck on treads, jets are warming up but every time they fire to get her into the air, Valentine snipes her because she's always sticking just at that range.

j.MP is just too slow vs Valentine. It is her best poke in every matchup including vs Val, but she doesn't get into a situation where she is both ALREADY in flight, high in the air and Valentine has used every single one of her mobility options and both characters are mid screen, very often. So Painwheel... has to bait, yep. problem is how does PW bait? well she has to be in flight already because flight startup is too slow, which means she has to move backwards, which means Val moves forwards which means space has been sacrificed and then to bait she has to fly back MORE, all this while overextending during flight is an incredibly common occurrence even with unfly block because if you block Val's assist and she still has air movement left... she's on top of you.

The other choice? Jump back j.MP, probably the best choice.... but it moves her toward the corner!

To have overextended, Val has to have already air dashed. She doesn't need to do this very often at all. She can double jump, get above Painwheel fire an assist throw out a normal then decide where she wants to go. Even though she has a long way to fall, the assist wall will stop PW dead in her tracks and Val is at her favourite range so Painwheel cannot abuse her lack of options upon falling to the ground.

Getting into flight itself is just difficult in the matchup, even when she is there, Valentine has faster movement, more options to cancel what she is doing and doesn't have to commit to movement before calling assist to convert <--- this is huge.


We PBGC, don't worry about that much. It has been a necessity here for a year probably longer now, if we couldn't PBGC, ClarenceMage would be trouncing us in the corner every round.
 
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