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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

When I'm using my brain, I completely swap my team order vs Peacock. That'll probably change when I can throw Fukua in the trash and run Eliza, but my current team is kinda free to team Double Big Cock.
 
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Jason said:
Except you have item drop to deal with that.

Big Band and Bella both have a MUCH easier time dealing with Peacock than Squigly. She's probably Peacock's easiest matchup other than Parasoul. I hope you're not trying to imply that I'm some kind of whiny scrub just because I think its a bad matchup.


If your only explanation is "It seems fine until she gets full screen." Then yes. The first thing Squigly absolutely needs to block when moving in from full screen is mp shadow. From that point on Squgly has an easier time opening up Peacock than the other way around and the other choice is to get away and chuck more stuff. Making space doesn't really leave much time for Peacock to setup anything that really gets in Squigly's way. So it ends up being a cat and mouse game where nobody's really hitting anybody. Peacock doesn't really want to challenge Squigly in the air because of j.mp, j.mk, and j.hp, nor does she want to let Squigly get above her for obvious reasons. If Peacock is throwing things with Squigly too close then she's gonna eat a j.k or dive kick. If Squigly has an assist that can make Peacock block for a second or eat a couple of bombs for her, she can get a charge and either move the screen or tremelo once Peacock gets out again.

So all in all, it's a match where neither side is overwhelmingly a threat to the other. Squgly doesn't get locked down so easily and have to eat a ton of chip while moving in. Peacock can move around Squigly and make her jump around a lot. If Squigly stays in the air a lot, then Peacock isn't going to do much about it. Slight favor to Peacock.

So I guess that means Peacock does beat Squigly. My bad. Y'all win.
 
Peacock can move away much faster than Squigly can chase her. That alone makes the matchup a problem. All you need to do is set one George on the ground or call a ground covering assist so she can't run forward and all her forward momentum is gone, and you have plenty of time to set up her zoning game.
 
As Peacock I've never felt like Squigly has anything I need to respect or pay attention to at all, except for start of round Opera which is actually kind of a problem. An Opera at any other time, though, whether it's preceded by a Sing or not, tends to do nothing as a projectile already on screen usually hits Squigly out of it. Other than that, she's not very fast and she doesn't have a lot of angles of approach so as long as I make sure all those angles are always filled with projectiles it's not a hard matchup. The one thing that's kind of annoying is that she's so thin that level 1 item drop sometimes whiffs if she's holding up-forward.
 
mcpeanuts said:
As Peacock I've never felt like Squigly has anything I need to respect or pay attention to at all, except for start of round Opera which is actually kind of a problem. An Opera at any other time, though, whether it's preceded by a Sing or not, tends to do nothing as a projectile already on screen usually hits Squigly out of it. Other than that, she's not very fast and she doesn't have a lot of angles of approach so as long as I make sure all those angles are always filled with projectiles it's not a hard matchup. The one thing that's kind of annoying is that she's so thin that level 1 item drop sometimes whiffs if she's holding up-forward.
Round start opera loses to MP bang and trades with lk bomb, so it's not really even ever a good idea against Peacock

Edit: An assist can let Squigly convert off SBO even if a plane or whatever is heading towards her, as long as she can block it.
Notably brass since that's what I use, but i bet there are other options.
 
zeknife said:
Round start opera loses to MP bang and trades with lk bomb, so it's not really even ever a good idea against Peacock

Edit: An assist can let Squigly convert off SBO even if a plane or whatever is heading towards her, as long as she can block it.
Notably brass since that's what I use, but i bet there are other options.
But that's why it's a problem, you have to go for a hard read like MP Bang to beat it. I can't do a lot of my common round openers like jump back j.HK or call assist + teleport for fear of getting hit by the orb. I used to think LK bomb was a safe round opener against Squigly but then I had the Opera hit Peacock out of the startup frames and was like wwwwwwwwwwwwwelp never trying that again.

Didn't know about that second part though, that's interesting. What do you do, like Sing xx Opera, call Brass, block, dash OTG c.MK? Something like that?
 
mcpeanuts said:
But that's why it's a problem, you have to go for a hard read like MP Bang to beat it. I can't do a lot of my common round openers like jump back j.HK or call assist + teleport for fear of getting hit by the orb. I used to think LK bomb was a safe round opener against Squigly but then I had the Opera hit Peacock out of the startup frames and was like wwwwwwwwwwwwwelp never trying that again.

Didn't know about that second part though, that's interesting. What do you do, like Sing xx Opera, call Brass, block, dash OTG c.MK? Something like that?
I just call assist as soon as possible after recovering from SBO, it usually works pretty well
 
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mcpeanuts said:
But that's why it's a problem, you have to go for a hard read like MP Bang to beat it. I can't do a lot of my common round openers like jump back j.HK or call assist + teleport for fear of getting hit by the orb. I used to think LK bomb was a safe round opener against Squigly but then I had the Opera hit Peacock out of the startup frames and was like wwwwwwwwwwwwwelp never trying that again.

MP Banging SBO is not a hard read, you can do it on reaction to the superflash. It will even reach if you backdash and you can cancel prejump into a bang too.
 
obregon said:
MP Banging SBO is not a hard read, you can do it on reaction to the superflash. It will even reach if you backdash and you can cancel prejump into a bang too.
Wait, I thought you could block SBO on reaction but not counter it...getting confused
 
You're thinking of SBO off of a charged center stage, round start SBO is obviously uncharged.
 
iLoli said:
Big Band: bad matchups against Parasoul*, Fortune, and Valentine, good matchups against Filia, Painwheel, and Squigly, even matchups against Bella, Peacock, and Double.

*unless the Parasoul player is IsaVulpes, then it's a good matchup

What can Parasoul do to Band? Not really seeing it.
 
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Dhoppler said:
So not that I know much about anything, but what's this I hear about Val getting higher than Painwheel? Can't PW go higher the higher up her opponent gets? I mean, this isn't SDE so her flight isn't exactly slower than a jump anymore once it's been started. As far as assists go, does it really matter how often you can call assists as long as you call them according to your character's optimal play style? I'm pretty sure we've moved past using assists as our sole tool in playing footsies.

@Elda Taluda do you have any thoughts on this matchup?

@Dhoppler

PW vs Val matchup? I'd say it is in PW's favor from my experiences.
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First up - The neutral game. This is a toss up but I'd say PW wins overall. If PW can keep herself out of the corner this should be a fairly simple fight.

Air - PW should be able to keep Val out of her optimal range with very little effort. J.mp keeps Val from doing anything that she wants. If PW has enough time to get j.mp active Val just has to deal with it as none of her air normals out-right stuff it (jump back hk with val does seem to work quite a bit though). Val's trying to savage bypass in will get nailed by j.mp as well. She can however get close enough to an active j.mp and use Scalpels to trade or EKG to beat it. Pretty much if Val doesn't have any meter and there is a decent amount of space between PW and herself, you don't have to be too scared in the air.

That said, If Val does get close though, her air normals almost always beat win out anything PW does to counter them on reaction (aside of super) It's best to just block should Val get inside of PWs j.mp range. If you MUST hit buttons can try to throw Val if you suspect that she is going to jump at you from below. It works more often than it should.
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Ground Game - Neither character has note worthy ground normals but since most of Val's hit several times and can easily chew through PW's armored attacks, I'd give this to Val. Also because of her fantastic run speed. She can close a ton of space in very little time.
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Lame Game - Does the Val player just want to sit on the other side of the screen waiting for you to come to over and get smacked by an assist? Or do you feel like doing the same? PW does a much better job at this. You've got options for playing PW lame.

First, you can just sit and throw nails from full screen all day. Val's only real answer to this is either Scalpels or aerial savage bypass>Scalpels. Thing is you can cancel nails into flight 2.mk and block if you feel unsafe while charging up your nails. At full screen you should have plenty of time to react to either of Val's options. As she closes in to about midscreen I'd recommend you go back to using j.mp to keep her out.

Secondly, You can bait Val's assist all day. PW is REALLY good at baiting assists as long as you know how close you can get without getting clipped. Once you've done quite a bit of damage to her assists Val players tend to get all kinds of concerned. So you'll want to jump in with j.mp, cancel it with fly, back off and repeat until the Val's assist comes out for an easy punish... Especially if you have an assist of your own. Plus since Val really can't contest j.mp without spending meter, this is also pretty safe.
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Defense - Neither character has a meterless reversal so things are fairly even here. Still, I'd give the edge to PW.

The reason being PW can deal with Val's corner crossup j.lk shenanigans better than most characters by inputting fly with 2 kicks. This way you either get a standard fly or thresher depending on whether or not your input is crossed up. 90% of the time you don't have to deal with this particular mixup because of this OS. Which is a big deal imo.
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Meter Gain - Val hands down. PWs meter gain is abysmal. My optimal corner BNB gains about 55% (with copter assist!) and gives roughly double that to the opponent.
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DHCs - PW here -In most situations DHCing into Val ends your combo. PW brings alot more diversity when it comes to DHC options. You can go for guaranteed damage with Deathcrawl or for mixup/extended combos with Hatred Install. Plus you get a safe DHC which is always awesome.
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Assists - Both characters have pretty poor assist options. So while I wouldn't say there is a winner here, I'll give it to Val for diversity's sake.
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Long story short, PW should have no problems keeping Val from playing in the neutral game. If Val does happen to get in, I'd say it goes back to a roughly even playing field.

Did this answer your question? Want me to elaborate on something specific?
 
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Elda Taluda said:
Did this answer your question? Want me to elaborate on something specific?


No no. That should do. Thank you very much. (I wasn't really invested in that discussion.)

What do you think of the Painwheel vs Peacock matchup? Why are we the only two people that don't think is horrendously in Peacock's favor?

Also, Painwheel vs. Fortune.
 
mcpeanuts said:
But that's why it's a problem, you have to go for a hard read like MP Bang to beat it. I can't do a lot of my common round openers like jump back j.HK or call assist + teleport for fear of getting hit by the orb. I used to think LK bomb was a safe round opener against Squigly but then I had the Opera hit Peacock out of the startup frames and was like wwwwwwwwwwwwwelp never trying that again.

Didn't know about that second part though, that's interesting. What do you do, like Sing xx Opera, call Brass, block, dash OTG c.MK? Something like that?

Just stand still or walk backwards for just one moment at the start of the round, if she does start with SBO, it will be immediately, and if you're standing at neutral you can just MP Bang on reaction to the super flash.

Once the instant at the start of the round has passed you can do whatever. Honestly I feel like SBO at the start of the round is an awful decision for Squigly in this matchup. It puts you at a huge meter deficit and isn't very likely to work unless the Peacock player doesn't respect it.
 
mcpeanuts said:
As Peacock I've never felt like Squigly has anything I need to respect or pay attention to at all, except for start of round Opera which is actually kind of a problem.

MP Bang beats it clean at the start of a round. Just do MP Bang + assist as an anticipation to it.
 
RemiKz said:
MP Bang beats it clean at the start of a round. Just do MP Bang + assist as an anticipation to it.
It's all fun and games until they do 236LP xx Opera and get the happy birthday.
(Yes it's a thing)

Generally I start with walk backwards for a few frames then if no opera comes out I'll do something standard. Everything else feels too all in.
 
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Who even DOES THAT

I actually really want to see someone do that
 
SO HOW ABOUT THAT CEREBELLA REPRESENTATION AT EVO?

Turns out I've been playing an S tier character this whole time!
 
please lets go in on this top tier val with 2 whole showings in evo top 25.
 
Give Val an omnidirectional air dash.
 
Val's third vial load turns her vial toss into a tranquilizer.

If Parasoul gets body bagged by Val, Val takes the gun Parasoul uses for napalm shot.
 
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Prototype said:
He would have cleared regardless that don't count

Fine, but if you get to invalidate Duck, then PW get to invalidate Elda. I'm sure Peacock's are going to invalidate TJ, and on and on and on.

Now it is anarchy.
 
Everybody gets one, that's how super biased tier discussion based on tournament placings works.
 
Considering nobody in the entire community has reached the max level of mastery on any character of the cast, theory fighting still makes more sense than interpolating from EVO results to make up a tier list.
 
dragonos451 said:
Considering nobody in the entire community has reached the max level of mastery on any character of the cast, theory fighting still makes more sense than interpolating from EVO results to make up a tier list.

Theory fighting is nice but at some point you need to put it into practice and test it.
 
Jason said:
Theory fighting is nice but at some point you need to put it into practice and test it.
Didn't say it was the best option, far from it.
Just sayin' tourney results "analysis" is doing worse of a job.

On a different track :
Fukua, solo vs solo. Is there any character with a good match up against her?
 
I think the evo results should be a testament that the game doesn't need as many changes as people think. Duckator technically didn't make top 8, was a multi year evo champion and played one of the apparently best teams in the game. Either that or he was just having a bad day.

I've seen people go so far as to say that Valentine needs to choose between double jump or super jump as a nerf which would be a heavy nerf to her. I won't point fingers but I don't think they're good enough for tiers to matter as much if even the apparent best of the best don't even put the tier list to the test.

Theory fighting and looking at tournament results aren't 100% correlations but in my opinion it does at least show how much the players need to improve as a whole to really reach that point where "pick a top tier" becomes a rule for playing the game competitively and it starts to correlate more. Personally if changes were to be made, ideally I would like to see changes to make it so Filia/Double aren't so "Why would I not play them?" but honestly in terms of what's strong and what's not, people should be worrying about how to get better rather than complaining that so and so is too strong and needs nerfs.
 
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dragonos451 said:
Didn't say it was the best option, far from it.
Just sayin' tourney results "analysis" is doing worse of a job.

On a different track :
Fukua, solo vs solo. Is there any character with a good match up against her?
ah shaddup <3

apparently expect a nerf to fukua so it will make your bella easier :D.

but seriously expect that nerf.
 
I actually want to know if anybody has a good matchup against fukua. I hear Cerebella is nice against her. But not really anybody else.
 
Dhoppler said:
I actually want to know if anybody has a good matchup against fukua. I hear Cerebella is nice against her. But not really anybody else.
solos? i don't think particularly anyone.

bella i dunno i had a set with two great bellas and they were frustrated with fukua.

big band is so far a no.
peacock with a team does well. alone? no
i honestly don't have the faintest clue but i know nerfs are coming soon so i'll wait and re-evaluate the thoughts on the matchups.

i'm honestly excited for the nerfs so that people will stop whoring fukua when they really don't like that character :P
 
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