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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Am I the only person who thinks that Val has a pretty decent matchup against her (well, at least as decent of a matchup as Soloval could ever have against anyone)?

Sure, you don't want to get touched (true of every Val matchup, though), but it's relatively easy to get past her fireballs, and as long as you don't try challening j.hk from below, you do fine in neutral. And then Val has throw resets for days, which are rough for Fukua.

EDIT: As for Bella, my experience is that if you can land a hit, you're good, but landing that hit can be really rough. The only reflect that actually helps you is shadow, so if she's not predictable with it, that's useless. Armor generally doesn't help much, since she's chucking fireballs from the top of the screen, so you'll just end up under her and have to contend with j.hk. Also, the low shadow breaks armor. It's a better matchup than Para has against her (oh god, Para vs. Fukua...), but it's by no means "good", IMO.
 
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Pretty much any double jump character is at least OK vs Fukua.
 
Am I the only person who thinks that Val has a pretty decent matchup against her (well, at least as decent of a matchup as Soloval could ever have against anyone)?

Sure, you don't want to get touched (true of every Val matchup, though), but it's relatively easy to get past her fireballs, and as long as you don't try challening j.hk from below, you do fine in neutral. And then Val has throw resets for days, which are rough for Fukua.
at the same token val becomes predictable and susceptible to air grabs and such. i could run a set vs outlaw spike and see. primarily val got the mobility so it should be easy to get in on fukua. but the question is. can all her tools fully neutralize fukua? not sure about it but i think val can edge it out slightly
 
Didn't say it was the best option, far from it.
Just sayin' tourney results "analysis" is doing worse of a job.

On a different track :
Fukua, solo vs solo. Is there any character with a good match up against her?
Val has a good matchup, Squigly I'm unsure but my theory fighter tells me she gives Fukua troubles.

Other than that not really, Fortune could be but I think it is pretty even

EDIT: Oh, Bella, but that is probably about even too
 
Val has a good matchup, Squigly I'm unsure but my theory fighter tells me she gives Fukua troubles.

Other than that not really, Fortune could be but I think it is pretty even

EDIT: Oh, Bella, but that is probably about even too
i can answer that.

i played a set on squigs and she does give fukua troubles...once she charges and she will always be charged.

fortune-headless is useless
but fortune head on is a nightmare to deal with.
bella not really.
 
I think the evo results should be a testament that the game doesn't need as many changes as people think. Duckator technically didn't make top 8, was a multi year evo champion and played one of the apparently best teams in the game. Either that or he was just having a bad day.


Duck has been losing to people ever since his style of val got nerfed. It was basically an overnight correlation... The night before vals shuriken got super nerfed... Duck was winning, the next night after her shuriken got nerfed and duck couldnt just outzone every character in a limited fashion with vals ninja star toss. He started losing.

Iirc it was the last duck kumite where it became apparent that duck was going to have a hard time winning evo with his current team. Worldjem almost beat duck and 2 players actually beat him as well as many of the players getting a large amount of wins against him, whereas that wouldnt have really happened before shuriken nerf.

But duck was basically the only high level val that made heavy use of shuriken at neutral game and he did it in a very predictable place... Once he got one of his assists blocked, usually after a blocked or missed updo, he would fireball with val to protect the assist. No good shuriken meant he couldnt protect his assist for free, as good as before and was forced to use bypass xx scalpels to protect his assist (which he previously used mostly after blocked bomber to hit people that went for the bomber punish) which has been nerfed as well. So he cant as easily call his assists with no recourse.

So, in short, ducks style has been nerfed heavily, therefor, duck himself was nerfed heavily and he will stay nerfed until he makes the adjustment.

But many of the things that make val good are still in the game. Her ability to jump backwards, then double jump forward to super jump heights, then airdash at super jump height, then do a j.mk while airdashing and call out an assist like mk bomber, is exceptionally strong because it allows val to aggress from super jump heights with little impunity. This is a pattern that duck makes almost zero use of.

Val isnt to strong to beat. Shes been nerfed multiple times (along with almost every other character, as well) but beating a val that specializes in that pattern isnt easy at all and val has an honest advantage against nearly everyone in the cast, by using that pattern.


She can literally play the game however she wants "regularly" and then pull out the pattern whenever things get dicey for her and she will near get an auto advantage from which to play, nearly everytime, by using that pattern.

Other characters that have double jump and airdash dont have access to this pattern in its current strength because they dont either have a double jump into airdash that moves up as well as forward (Eliza has no double jump and is the only character that has an airdash that moves up and forward besides val and maybe peacock) ( along with a move that moves the other character forward in the air strictly along the horizontal axis (fortune doesnt have a move that moves her forward in the air along the horizontal axis, after she airdashes, nor does her airdash move her upwards) (peacock has a double jump and an airdash that moves her forward and slightly upwards, but has nothing that even comes close to vals j.mk to move her forward along the horizontal axis)

Cerebella cant glide after having double jumped, double cant double jump and then airdash forward j.mk.

Etc etc.

The basic gist being that val can attack from a position of height superiority almost at will, while being able to call asists, where most characters have a hard time just making contact with her sprite much less being able to actually stop the pattern.

The pattern allows val to aggress easily versus any kind of zoning since she just basically goes above it. And it allows val to aggress easily from a defensive position (she can jump backwards and chicken block defensively and then double jump and air dash forward with j.mk to go on the offense, while being able to block the whole time except during the airdash and j.mk which come at very high heights that other characters cant contest, negating most of the risk of the pattern.

If other characters could call assists at superjump height while still being able to move forward, and still able to block on the way down from the j.mk like val can while protecting her landing by calling a bridging assist to cover her vulnerable landing frames. Then it wouldn't be nearly so good.


But as things stand, she can do this at will. While ALSO being able to do all the generally great val things like convert any hit assist from near anywhere on screen, and beating able to bait other peoples assists super easily, and having some of the best airnormals in the game and having the best run speed in the game, and having a backdash that while it gets her in trouble, is also immune from slower low/throw mixups.


Val is nowhere near unbeatable, but she is exceptionally powerful almost for free and definitely at will.
The problem is that most people dont actually use val in this way, yet.

Anywho, I'm already doing my part to "git gud" by switching to fukua point. Fukua is one of the only theory characters that can handle that val pattern by double jumping and doing hp fireball from appropriate ranges, or if that isnt high enough, then fukua can superjump and then double jump and do hp airfireball to hit val in the air, and then protect her own landing via j.hk. Fukua can do this without sacrificing to much screen position. And yet can also go on the offense. So she isnt relegated to a one track pony type of strategy.
 
That Val pattern sucks, though. She's too high to do anything after you block the bomber other than maybe Dead Cross, so just block the bomber and murder her as she comes down.
 
That Val pattern sucks, though. She's too high to do anything after you block the bomber other than maybe Dead Cross, so just block the bomber and murder her as she comes down.
I agree that Dime likes to simplify things beyond what is really going on.

But I think that Val's general ability to attack from greater heights with more ease than others and the shear amount of vectors she has at any one point is what makes her difficult for a lot of teams. When she gets in the air and covers the ground with Bomber, she feels like a wall that pushes you back, no matter who you are playing and her corner game with bomber is just dumb so you are on a life line in almost every matchup to get a hit before you hit the corner.

Dime has COMPLETELY the wrong idea by picking up Fukua... he's gonna get mad soon when he realises that Val is Fukua's worst matchup.


Anyway, I think moving forward your team will live or die by how well it can deal with Valentine and Peacock.

My checklist right now is usually.
1. Does my team at least handle Valentine/Peacock teams decently?
2. Can I handle x/Fillia/Double in most situations?
3. Wait, is my team hard countered by Parasoul? (multiple times this has happened after making it past the first couple haha)
4. I have a team! But it's good to think about the other matchups too, at least things like point vs point and anchor vs anchor situations and how your team will play scrambled.
 
That Val pattern sucks, though. She's too high to do anything after you block the bomber other than maybe Dead Cross, so just block the bomber and murder her as she comes down.

Bomber covers her descent so there is no "murder her on the way down".

The primary way i know of to beat the pattern is to out range it. But since its near full screen..
Thats tough. Double jumpers do decent against the pattern though. But val still gets easy offense from it if shes uses it any kind of sparingly.

Also, blocking the bomber isnt the easiest task in itself since bomber becomes active just as vals j.mk becomes active and therefor becomes a chance at a crossup.
 
The only bombers that'll put you in blockstun long enough that you can't murder val on the way down aren't invulnerable, so countercall them to punish.

If you run Updo or Pillar (and, really, who doesn't), you can do that while murdering Val on the way down rofl.
 
you guys never had a fukua vs fortune head on eh?

this is all 1v1 or team based??

if its team then val is like...bane to fukua point. its to the point that fukua WANTS to rush down val like fukua wants to rush down squigs.

if 1v1 then ima say fortune is just the bane of fukua.

there's many reasons but the best one right now is that fortune can get there quickly and i do mean quickly
 
The only bombers that'll put you in blockstun long enough that you can't murder val on the way down aren't invulnerable, so countercall them to punish.

If you run Updo or Pillar (and, really, who doesn't), you can do that while murdering Val on the way down rofl.
I approach the matchup completely differently. I try to keep pace with Valentine, stopping her mostly with LP fireballs because jump back HP fireball is near useless against Val's angles. I mostly try to get her to want to call assist and then countercall with HP brass.

My plan in the future is to snap in Double, because she has been the biggest trouble to me in the past. With Double gone, her bulldozing potential is lowered quite a bit.

you guys never had a fukua vs fortune head on eh?

this is all 1v1 or team based??

if its team then val is like...bane to fukua point. its to the point that fukua WANTS to rush down val like fukua wants to rush down squigs.

if 1v1 then ima say fortune is just the bane of fukua.

there's many reasons but the best one right now is that fortune can get there quickly and i do mean quickly

I just told Dime exactly this.

To play Fukua vs Valentine you have to be more aggressive than I am comfortable with in the matchup. I just pray to land a j.HK by somehow being above her while she is assistless so I can steal momentum.
 
Dime has COMPLETELY the wrong idea by picking up Fukua... he's gonna get mad soon when he realises that Val is Fukua's worst matchup.
Ive heard you say this multiple times. But i still dont get it. I only have 3 real problem when it comes to val:

1. Players beating me with val that are legitimately better than me.
2. Players beating me with that pattern listed above/variations of it.
3. Val being able to convert any assist easily while my character can not or not from near as many positions as val can.

I cant do anything about 1 except become a better player than the val player. And allowing val to use strong patterns with little to no recourse isnt a way to do that imho.

Fukua should "beat" that val pattern with her airfireball. Val will be able to beat fukuas airfireball by running under it... But like val, fukua can double jump with airfireball and still call an assist to cover her descent. I just want to make val respect not doing that pattern. After that... I'm not to worried about val as anything more than a character.

I know youve said that val gets above fukua and fukua cant do anything about it cause all of fukuas moves hit below her... But fukua also has a rather easy backwards wavedash for getting out of that range. As well as being able to throw ground fireballs to beat bomber in its startup.


I dont think fukua is a counter to val by any means. I dont need a counter at this point. I just need someone to stop that pattern so that i can play my mindgames. Once i can play my mindgames im very confident in my ability to win.
 
Have you tested yet? Because Val can actually fly right over HP air fireball.

In fact HP air fireball is probably the worst fireball in the matchup unless you have her blocking an assist and you TK it.

jump forward LP/MP fireball has been the most useful for me, LP especially.

You don't want to stop Bomber with Fukua, you want to stop her with assist, because whiffing a fireball is a punish from any range against Val, and I mean (just about) any range. Same as starting a shadow for mid range, she will punish you for that as well.

I do think Fukua is a pretty decent character for your playstyle but I'm not sure it is going to help you with Valentine at all, even compared to Parasoul.
 
Have you tested yet? Because Val can actually fly right over HP air fireball.

In fact HP air fireball is probably the worst fireball in the matchup unless you have her blocking an assist and you TK it.

jump forward LP/MP fireball has been the most useful for me, LP especially.

You don't want to stop Bomber with Fukua, you want to stop her with assist, because whiffing a fireball is a punish from any range against Val, and I mean (just about) any range. Same as starting a shadow for mid range, she will punish you for that as well.

I do think Fukua is a pretty decent character for your playstyle but I'm not sure it is going to help you with Valentine at all, even compared to Parasoul.
well its not val NOR para that's the definite problem. its bomber in conjunction with val OR parasoul. its almost completely advisable to snap in double since she'll be anchor always or usually and kill her.

bomber has always been stupid....so why not just kill double first? if they try to tag in val you jump over and kill her or even reset her for easy stuff.
 
well its not val NOR para that's the definite problem. its bomber in conjunction with val OR parasoul. its almost completely advisable to snap in double since she'll be anchor always or usually and kill her.

bomber has always been stupid....so why not just kill double first? if they try to tag in val you jump over and kill her or even reset her for easy stuff.
I meant that as a reply to Dime actually, haha. He plays Parasoul on point right now and that's why he is having trouble with that specific "pattern" of sorts.
 
I meant that as a reply to Dime actually, haha. He plays Parasoul on point right now and that's why he is having trouble with that specific "pattern" of sorts.
do you have steam btw?

i meant to answer in the quoted reply as a way of an answer for us grounded fukuas.

btw to everyone. i talked with cloud king(which he spoke and demonstrated to mike) and apparently that BFF reset tech is still in. so i dunno what that means to us but i say prepare yourself for nerfs that might be involving the shadows. BFF, and some hitboxes or hitstun on shadows. (this is just my hunch)
 
do you have steam btw?

i meant to answer in the quoted reply as a way of an answer for us grounded fukuas.

btw to everyone. i talked with cloud king(which he spoke and demonstrated to mike) and apparently that BFF reset tech is still in. so i dunno what that means to us but i say prepare yourself for nerfs that might be involving the shadows. BFF, and some hitboxes or hitstun on shadows. (this is just my hunch)
I do, but I dunno if you want to play 400 ping games with Australians haha

EDIT: VAD CHANGED MY AVATAR D=
 
Am I the only person who thinks that Val has a pretty decent matchup against her (well, at least as decent of a matchup as Soloval could ever have against anyone)?

Sure, you don't want to get touched (true of every Val matchup, though), but it's relatively easy to get past her fireballs, and as long as you don't try challening j.hk from below, you do fine in neutral. And then Val has throw resets for days, which are rough for Fukua.

It favors Fukua, but very slightly in my opinion. Most of the Vals and Fukuas I've talked to agree, and also agree that the onus of solid execution and pressure to get in or play the matchup well is squarely on the Val player the entire time.

Val's movement is still the best in the game, or at least tied for best in the game. If you're platforming, you want to take a ninja or a cat.

EDIT: As for Bella, my experience is that if you can land a hit, you're good, but landing that hit can be really rough. The only reflect that actually helps you is shadow, so if she's not predictable with it, that's useless. Armor generally doesn't help much, since she's chucking fireballs from the top of the screen, so you'll just end up under her and have to contend with j.hk. Also, the low shadow breaks armor. It's a better matchup than Para has against her (oh god, Para vs. Fukua...), but it's by no means "good", IMO.

Bella bops her, it's just harder on her than it is on Fukua because Fukua is braindead easy. The peacock/fukua matchup is the same way; Pea takes it, the Pea player just has to work harder than this character.
 
bomber has always been stupid....so why not just kill double first?.


Val is always point so snapping her from the first combo means youve made little meter, and spent a meter. So now your ability to kill double is low cause you have no meter. Meaning multiple resets. And double still has meter so effectively snapping in double means youve made a losing guess unless you make good on your incoming mixup and subsequently are able to reset double at least 2 times before you can kill her... In general. If you use throw or assist openers since those are scaled.

I havent had any luck snapping in double since double just gets to be double with filia updo to back her up, with me a meter down.

And no one ive played against has had much luck snapping my double from round start either. Now if we are talking trio versus trio. Assuming that i kill the point with no meter, or i lose my first character and now have excess meter to spare, snapping double in is a VERY VERY good strategy.
 
unless you make good on your incoming mixup

I think this is key. We need to work on our scummy incoming mixup game.
 
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Val is always point so snapping her from the first combo means youve made little meter, and spent a meter. So now your ability to kill double is low cause you have no meter. Meaning multiple resets. And double still has meter so effectively snapping in double means youve made a losing guess unless you make good on your incoming mixup and subsequently are able to reset double at least 2 times before you can kill her... In general. If you use throw or assist openers since those are scaled.

I havent had any luck snapping in double since double just gets to be double with filia updo to back her up, with me a meter down.

And no one ive played against has had much luck snapping my double from round start either. Now if we are talking trio versus trio. Assuming that i kill the point with no meter, or i lose my first character and now have excess meter to spare, snapping double in is a VERY VERY good strategy.


correction double will either have 1 bar or two bars. if you're good she'll have 1.5 bars at best. now it depends on who your point is. cause my point will always grant me 2 bars for each incoming character in the event my point dies or 2nd dies. so if you're saying i'm wasting a bar. i say i can gain that bar back and MORE

if they try and cat heads she wasted 2 bars. big whoop.

if she hard tags you can get good damage and possibly kill the character their on. the point is. the pressure will always be there cause of double. if you snap in double you got 3 seconds to play with and updo is a defensive measure so its not anything notable.

@Hilary i disagree about the bella match up. fukua pretty much controls how bella approaches, hell even conditions bella to a T. if bella gets in then fukua has a problem otherwise a good fukua will learn to use the tools to observe a bella (being proactive and forcing bella to be reactive) instead of the other way around.
 
I think this is key. We need to work on our scummy incoming mixup game.


Lol.. you dont have to work on anything. You already have good incoming mixups. Mine suck however. Always have and probably always will.


@Dreamepitaph

I have no idea what you are saying there. It seems like youve got endless meter though from the sounds of it. I'm not talking about what happens if one character dies. I'm talking about snapping from the first combo. And this also assuming that i hit val. But... Why would i snap out val and her bad defense after ive just done almost half damage to her in order to snap in a full health character? This isnt snapping in Phoenix and killing her in one non metered combo. And it isnt snapping in a character on umvc3 which is complete with infinites and characters that build plus 3 meter combos per combo. Is is sg where you have to reset multiple times in order to get a kill while also making abysmal meter.

And as far as snapped double going cats... I dont know why incoming double would do that. I certainly wouldnt. Cats is good as a dhc or when anchored with high amounts of meter. Snapped in double on trio first character is neither.
 
Lol.. you dont have to work on anything. You already have good incoming mixups. Mine suck however. Always have and probably always will.


@Dreamepitaph

I have no idea what you are saying there. It seems like youve got endless meter though from the sounds of it. I'm not talking about what happens if one character dies. I'm talking about snapping from the first combo. And this also assuming that i hit val. But... Why would i snap out val and her bad defense after ive just done almost half damage to her in order to snap in a full health character? This isnt snapping in Phoenix and killing her in one non metered combo. And it isnt snapping in a character on umvc3 which is complete with infinites and characters that build plus 3 meter combos per combo. Is is sg where you have to reset multiple times in order to get a kill while also making abysmal meter.

And as far as snapped double going cats... I dont know why incoming double would do that. I certainly wouldnt. Cats is good as a dhc or when anchored with high amounts of meter. Snapped in double on trio first character is neither.

no here's what i'm saying. you could kill val.....OR you can eliminate double completely with resets in the air, crossunders, frame traps, etc. i know what this game is. i'm talking about eliminating the character that gets the most usage once she is anchor. if you take double out. va isn't scary at all. in fact what real offensive/pushing power does she have? block, call assist and convert?
pfft.

i'd much rather ( and i have done so) take out double on first snap then deal with val and double trying to do ONE reset that could or could not take out val then have to deal with the 2nd character then finally get to double that has meter when i can take out double and if she catheads in a state of panic i did my job which is rid her of meter that she operates on. double's options are very poor and typical will need assist which will always have the fear of being double snapping killing the dp assist which is certainly demoralizing.

while your idea is to take out point my idea is to take out the main base of her offense or atleast cripple it. and no matter how futile you think my idea of how to fight the team is. you cannot dispute that prime basis isn't val. its the assist known as bomber that is the problem of it all.
 
Why would i snap out val and her bad defense after ive just done almost half damage to her in order to snap in a full health character?

I don't actually do this myself, but there's a few reasons I can think of.

-Incoming Double is as vulnerable as Val defending a reset, if not more so. (unless 5 meter yolo)
-If you fail to reset Val and can't lock her down, you're facing the problem in neutral again
-If you fail to catch Double on incoming, you're either facing a weaker shell in neutral or forcing them to risk a tag or waste meter to dhc
 
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It favors Fukua, but very slightly in my opinion. Most of the Vals and Fukuas I've talked to agree, and also agree that the onus of solid execution and pressure to get in or play the matchup well is squarely on the Val player the entire time.

Val's movement is still the best in the game, or at least tied for best in the game. If you're platforming, you want to take a ninja or a cat.



Bella bops her, it's just harder on her than it is on Fukua because Fukua is braindead easy. The peacock/fukua matchup is the same way; Pea takes it, the Pea player just has to work harder than this character.
I often agree with what you say but this is a situation where I raised an eyebrow to every part of your post haha.

On Val vs Fukua

Val's normals just win, it is basically a game of can Fukua find a moment to be above Val. Fukua is going to be rushing down in this matchup most often so Val can defensively make use of j.HK which bops Fukua's approaches. Fukua needs to angle her fireballs pretty well against Val because of her odd vectors in the air. Once Fukua has Val blocking a j.HK, THEN she's in the clear, but before that Val seems to dominate mostly. From range Fukua has clones, which can be reaction avoided and punished close/midscreen or ground gained full screen and Fukua's fireball angles only help when Val is on the ground and why would she be on the ground. Until Val is close, then Fukua's fireballs are really useful and necessary, but that assumes she has made it past Val j.HK range already.


I know people say Fukua zoning is braindead, but against Bella? Bella can reflect on reaction or just jump over stuff if you are full screen. I think the matchup is fairly even maybe slightly in Bella's favour, doing much up close is quite risky with Fukua but at the same time it isn't all that difficult to get above Bella and land a nice j.HK or LP fireball.

I also think Fukua handily beats Peacock. It is too risky for Peacock to commit to most things because of the risk of fireball hard knockdown super, best friends forever or the annoying angle on Fukua's HP fireball in the air which tends to bop Peacock out of most things. her defensive options against Fukua's angles are also really poor, usually leading her to need to teleport or block very well, not a good prospect for her when Fukua has supers that can punish teleport easily into hard knockdown.
 
no here's what i'm saying. you could kill val.....OR you can eliminate double completely with resets in the air, crossunders, frame traps, etc. i know what this game is. i'm talking about eliminating the character that gets the most usage once she is anchor. if you take double out. va isn't scary at all. in fact what real offensive/pushing power does she have? block, call assist and convert?
pfft.

i'd much rather ( and i have done so) take out double on first snap then deal with val and double trying to do ONE reset that could or could not take out val then have to deal with the 2nd character then finally get to double that has meter when i can take out double and if she catheads in a state of panic i did my job which is rid her of meter that she operates on. double's options are very poor and typical will need assist which will always have the fear of being double snapping killing the dp assist which is certainly demoralizing.

while your idea is to take out point my idea is to take out the main base of her offense or atleast cripple it. and no matter how futile you think my idea of how to fight the team is. you cannot dispute that prime basis isn't val. its the assist known as bomber that is the problem of it all.


I think at this point we a just interjecting our ideas into the discussion without listening to the other. I think we have different perspectives because of different personal abilities and therefor will not be able to understand one another with much clarity.

To wit:

Ive been playing against bomber since vanilla and while i consider it a fantastic assist, i dont have many "special" problems with bomber assist. It is usually easily avoided from what ive always seen in both my play and my opponents play.
This is only a thing if the opponent is calling bomber from bad positions. But those bad positions are what give bomber so much of its "power" imho.

In the special case of going against team duck, which is what I'm talking about, i dont have any special fear of filia plus bomber. Its good no doubt. But nowhere near unbeatable for me. So to me, getting rid of bomber is really only because of its synergy with val. At which point why would i ever snap in bomber to get rid of val plus bomber when I'm already halfway to killing val plus bomber when i hit val?


For me and my abilities (not afraid of bomber, has weak incoming mixups, is afraid of double plus updo almost as much as val plus bomber) there is very little reason for ME to snap in bomber. I gain very little from it. Even when i kill double its still a bit of a pain to kill val plus updo (though much much easier than val plus bomber) so yeah, ive snapped in bomber many times, and ive nerve had the kind of success at it as just straight up killing val. There are to many ways for me personally to lose than win by snapping early.
 
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I know people say Fukua zoning is braindead, but against Bella? Bella can reflect on reaction or just jump over stuff if you are full screen. I think the matchup is fairly even maybe slightly in Bella's favour, doing much up close is quite risky with Fukua but at the same time it isn't all that difficult to get above Bella and land a nice j.HK or LP fireball.
first off fukua's zoning was never braindead or atleast shouldn't be used as a braindead playstyle.

in the match up vs bella its an even match up or adv on fukua.

both have ways of fucking each other up. bella can reflect sure. but that's the thing. fukua can condition bella to an extreme point. whether you keep throwing fireball not to throw fireballs but to have bella expecting to reflect... so in that aspect bella is not really in control. a good fukua can be a dick and have the player IMAGINE bella has control but really bella does not.

as far as normals.... if bella approaches by air. we got M shadow which makes bella stay on ground for the most part that allows conditioning for fukua. if bella approaches by ground she faces chip and such. while not detrimental you got the edge even if its by a pixel and sooner or later bella will make haste with any sort of action that she makes. what you do with that is up to a fukua player.

now as far as resets. both can own either or. bella's grabs simply makes it dicey if fukua gets put to the corner. fukua has some strong resets in the corner too along with a burst bait that entitles for a mix up of a air throw, shadows, cmd grab you name it.

bella has the tools to get in and fukua has the tools to appropiately answer bella and vice versa. so this ties down to mostly meta gaming imho
 
i can answer that.

i played a set on squigs and she does give fukua troubles...once she charges and she will always be charged.

fortune-headless is useless
but fortune head on is a nightmare to deal with.
bella not really.
Squigly will pretty much never have charge against fukua in 1v1
It's a good enough matchup for her if she has an assist to eat up some projectiles, but otherwise she just has to go in, and she's not one of the better characters for that.
 
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Squigly will pretty much never have charge against fukua in 1v1
It's a good enough matchup for her if she has an assist to eat up some projectiles, but otherwise she just has to go in, and she's not one of the better characters for that.
You can charge stance pretty fine in that matchup, I know that much. Fireball super is slow enough that you can cancel in time from most spacings. You just have to do it in small bursts.
 
You can charge stance pretty fine in that matchup, I know that much. Fireball super is slow enough that you can cancel in time from most spacings. You just have to do it in small bursts.
Set training dummy fukua to do standing mp fireball repeatedly and see how practical that is
 
Set training dummy fukua to do standing mp fireball repeatedly and see how practical that is
If she is doing repeated medium fireballs, why would you be trying to charge? You have plenty of chances to charge when she isn't already stopping you from doing so, especially coupling in assists and the fact that Squigly's ability to quickly move vertically up AND down makes it really hard for Fukua to pin her down with fireballs in the first place.
 
I understand why everyone thinks bella is cool against fukua because of deflects and cmd grabs. I thought that too until I ended up against a good one.

The thing is...deflector doesn't do shit in the match up. Deflecting shadows is super dangerous because if you miss, you eat full MCH combo every time, and except if you deflected from point blank range, fukua will guard.
Deflecting fireballs is easier, but same thing : she will just guard or entirely avoid it. Sure, the super quick successful deflect recover will help to move forward a bit better, but blockstun from the deflect diamond being close to zero, it won't get you far.
Also, fukua can bait deflectors doing ground mp fireball, and just a bit before it hits cerebella, cancel with super fireball. The hitstop will catch you while you're doing the deflect motion (so no guard), the normal fire ball will hit you before the end of the hitstop, and then super fireball says hi.
So : long range : 5-5, both can't do anything to each other, except bella has to not fuck up at all.

Mid to close range : starting to get tricky for bella.
Deflecting shadows is harder, and fukua will still guard the deflect anyway. Deflecting air fireballs just means you didn't get chipped, as the diamond will just fly underneath fukua without hitting. You don't want to stay on the ground because nothing will beat j.hk except yolo dynamo. Lock'n'load cancel 360 won't help either because fukua can cancel j.hk with air fireball, so she stays high, high enough to make the lnl whiff most of the time if you didn't cancel.
So you jump. And you say hi to air fireballs that you can't do anything against. And getting higher than fukua is very hard. Everything she does tends to keep you on the ground.
Clear advantage for fukua.

Pressure/reset game :
Fukua has way more options than bella, with plenty or cross downs and cross ups even doable while bella is still airborne, cmd grabs into full combo wherever you are on the screen. She has a way easier time pushblocking than bella, as she has lights chaining into themselves with very low hit/blockstun.
And reseting with bella tends to be very scary for bella herself when fukua understands that instead of jumping back to avoid grabs, she can jump forward j.hk to get a free HCH combo. So, in solo versus solo, I don't want to hear "just grab her" anymore. It's just a 50/50 like every bella reset, and it becomes a very dangerous one for herself.
"Airgrab her!"
...
You're gonna need a lot of these to kill...
 
If she is doing repeated medium fireballs, why would you be trying to charge? You have plenty of chances to charge when she isn't already stopping you from doing so, especially coupling in assists and the fact that Squigly's ability to quickly move vertically up AND down makes it really hard for Fukua to pin her down with fireballs in the first place.
If I'm trying to charge, why would she not repeatedly do medium fireball? Fukua recovers fast enough that it's trivial to react to Squiglys attempts at retaliation (And Squigly doesn't get far in the time it takes for Fukua switch from stand fireball to jump back fireball)
Edit: Also center stage > sbo doesn't even hit fukua when she's doing air fireballs, most of the time
 
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Obviously we need to get Mike to nerf Fukua's projectile stuff.
 
If I'm trying to charge, why would she not repeatedly do medium fireball? Fukua recovers fast enough that it's trivial to react to Squiglys attempts at retaliation (And Squigly doesn't get far in the time it takes for Fukua switch from stand fireball to jump back fireball)
I don't get stuck on the idea of just charaging with Squigly unless I think I can get a full charge off in one burst. I often will take bits of charge where I can. I don't really know why you would charge > block a fireball x N.

You aren't going to be retaliating but you have freedom to move and if Fukua is sitting there throwing grounded M fireballs.... well you aren't gonna have much trouble doing anything. I also have an assist, a nice meaty one that likes to swallow up 2 fireballs and bop Fukua in the process.

Getting charge up against Fukua is a LOT easier than for example, against Parasoul, Peacock, Double or Valentine. They have immediate threats that even if you decide to cancel, you will be counter hit out of it.

Charge isn't even what makes the matchup pretty good for Squigs I would think anyway. What Fukua hates is characters that can move vertically quickly. Squigly might have terrible horizontal mobility, but vertically she is amazing.
 
You aren't going to be retaliating but you have freedom to move and if Fukua is sitting there throwing grounded M fireballs.... well you aren't gonna have much trouble doing anything. I also have an assist, a nice meaty one that likes to swallow up 2 fireballs and bop Fukua in the process.
If you follow the quote tree you'll see this was specifically about 1v1 matchups
With teams, it's fine.
 
If you follow the quote tree you'll see this was specifically about 1v1 matchups
With teams, it's fine.
1v1 I still see Squigs winning but yeah that's much more theory fighter territory because if I'm playing a solo I'm probably practicing something very specific in application or a cahracter that just came out.

I just think that Squigly's good horizontal aerial hitboxes combined with crazy vertical mobility, even on pressure her movement patterns are vertical. All of these things sound like exactly what as a Fukua player as well, i don't want to be facing.
 
I don't know about winning, but it is pretty even which vs Fukua is pretty damn good. Fukua does shut down most j.hp with fireballs, ungodly good air attack speed, and m.clone. That hurts Squigs' confirm range, and Fukua is scary at any range which hurts Squigs' approach. But Fukua can't stop Squig from getting a charge which does help a ton.

Since I'm primarily a Painwheel player, I'll say that it is an awful MU for PW. There is nothing about it that feels in PWs favor at any range.

As for my opinion on OPness, I don't know if I think she is OP... she just has everything. She is scary at every range as she is a solid zoner with scary fast attacks up close. Peacock feels weak up close, so the entire match becomes a struggle to get in on her and put the hurt on. Fukua doesn't feel weak up close, so after eating a ton of chip at range, eating a ton of damage/chip on approach, you now have to deal with fast overheads and a pretty solid reset game up close.

Why are we expecting nerfs, by the way? Has something been said, or is it just speculative?