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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Spencer said:
Why are we expecting nerfs, by the way? Has something been said, or is it just speculative?

I don't know about everyone else, but at the very least if the thing that was said below is true then it probably should be addressed.


Dreamepitaph said:
do you have steam btw?


btw to everyone. i talked with cloud king(which he spoke and demonstrated to mike) and apparently that BFF reset tech is still in. so i dunno what that means to us but i say prepare yourself for nerfs that might be involving the shadows. BFF, and some hitboxes or hitstun on shadows. (this is just my hunch)

I don't know how that BFF thing would change anything about the other shadows though.
 
Spencer said:
I don't know about winning, but it is pretty even which vs Fukua is pretty damn good. Fukua does shut down most j.hp with fireballs, ungodly good air attack speed, and m.clone. That hurts Squigs' confirm range, and Fukua is scary at any range which hurts Squigs' approach. But Fukua can't stop Squig from getting a charge which does help a ton.

Since I'm primarily a Painwheel player, I'll say that it is an awful MU for PW. There is nothing about it that feels in PWs favor at any range.

As for my opinion on OPness, I don't know if I think she is OP... she just has everything. She is scary at every range as she is a solid zoner with scary fast attacks up close. Peacock feels weak up close, so the entire match becomes a struggle to get in on her and put the hurt on. Fukua doesn't feel weak up close, so after eating a ton of chip at range, eating a ton of damage/chip on approach, you now have to deal with fast overheads and a pretty solid reset game up close.

Why are we expecting nerfs, by the way? Has something been said, or is it just speculative?
She doesn't have everything, though. Her only real vertical coverage is 5HP and it is unsafe unlike Fillia's. In the air she has bad horizontal coverage. Those are 2 pretty critical angles where she is weak.

Peacock also isn't weak up close, she is kinda weak on the defensive, yeah, but she has crazy pressure herself.

What fast overhead does Fukua have? Her fastest is like... over 30 frames of stuff me out of this please startup. Her best mixup is the good old low throw or left rights if you already have pressure up.
 
Her medium clone gives her pretty solid vertical height. It will knock a PW out of the air flying at height cap, so long as she doesn't jump. And it will do that almost up to full screen with an unpunishable recovery time. Can it reach a Squigly that super jumps into double jump? Absolutely not... but really, what can?

By fast overhead, I was talking about her air normals which was a bit of a semantic mistake on my part. I don't actually know the frame data for her clones so I won't speak to how fast or slow her low/overhead clone stuff is. Actually, do you have her framedata? The one online is woefully incomplete as of yet.

And I agree with the Peacock stuff. Rushdown Peacock can be scary, and she can put on a ton of damage as well. But she doesn't have many answers to being pressured. No matter how oppressive her game is (and it can be very oppressive), you at least get that feeling of "this is it" when (if) you finally catch up to her... not so with Fukua.

I think the thing that speaks to her relative strengths the best is just how fast she was adopted. It is clearly not an aesthetic thing (at least not for most) since she is identical to Filia. Yet, she was picked up and put on teams much faster than any of the new characters because why the hell not. She doesn't have a bad MU, and she fits nicely on just about any team. She came out on April 1st and was all over UFGT a month and a half later. From what I hear, she was even more represented at EVO.

Like I said, it isn't that she is OP (I don't know where I stand on that). And while I was probably a tad hyperbolic that she has "everything", I think she has a lot and gives up very little for it. And perhaps the biggest thing she doesn't have is a meaningful weakness.
 
The only problem I see with Fukua is that Light and Heavy shadows are like +20 or more on block from point blank range. They're even more plus from the range where you would normally do them too. I'm cool with M Shadow being that plus because its a mid attack.

She has bad angles where she doesn't have any good options, especially in the air. Her zoning is decent but its nowhere near Peacock even though its safer against Deflector because she's up in the air for most of it. Her mid-range game pretty much only consists of shadows and TK fireballs because she has the 2nd worst horizontal mobility in the game, next to Squigly, and her two reversal options are "extremely slow" and "sort of slow and vulnerable to throws" which puts her in a really bad position once you touch her. Finally, even though LK Drill gives her a safe way to end blockstrings, its actually really easy to PBGC if you start your pushblock during the cr.MK.
 
Idk but I'm lost at "fukua has bad horizontal range" fukua has like the second best horizontal range with her hp firebal that shit hits full screen. Sure it can be up back
Top of screen turtled, but everything in the game not item drop
Can be turtled like that.
 
I think you're mistaking what I'm saying. I'm not saying that when you come up against a Fukua that you should put your controller down because there's no chance. I'm just saying she doesn't have a built in weakness.

I think you can compare almost every portion of her game with the character who is best in a relative position. We are saying that she can't zone as well as Peacock, the best zoner... but her zoning does compare favorably to Parasoul, and it beats out the rest of the cast. We say her overheads are too slow, but she has overheads which means during blockstun you have to look out for the "good old low throw or left rights" as well as keeping in mind that at any time she can cancel into a (reactable) overhead. She doesn't have the best reversals? At least she gets meterless reversals unlike plenty in the cast. She's vulnerable to PBGC if she plays predictably? So is everyone.

I'm curious what you mean by bad horizontal mobility?
 
Spencer said:
I think you're mistaking what I'm saying. I'm not saying that when you come up against a Fukua that you should put your controller down because there's no chance. I'm just saying she doesn't have a built in weakness.

I think you can compare almost every portion of her game with the character who is best in a relative position. We are saying that she can't zone as well as Peacock, the best zoner... but her zoning does compare favorably to Parasoul, and it beats out the rest of the cast. We say her overheads are too slow, but she has overheads which means during blockstun you have to look out for the "good old low throw or left rights" as well as keeping in mind that at any time she can cancel into a (reactable) overhead. She doesn't have the best reversals? At least she gets meterless reversals unlike plenty in the cast. She's vulnerable to PBGC if she plays predictably? So is everyone.

I'm curious what you mean by bad horizontal mobility?
Well she has a built in weakness, she was intentionally made to be free to throws.

If we are talking about Fukua, I see her lack of thought as a problem.

Why not do fireball and clones when you're full screen, the only people will punish it are Peacock and Double, and that's if they have meter. Why not press j.hk in the air, no one's fucking with it? The different animations for different clones do help, but it's still pretty fast. Basically you watch her for when she flips or hair or looks at her nails. Then again it's SG, trying to focus too hard on the character and not the environment might get you busted.

She's not too good, she's just braindead as fuck.
 
Jason said:
The only problem I see with Fukua is that Light and Heavy shadows are like +20 or more on block from point blank range. They're even more plus from the range where you would normally do them too. I'm cool with M Shadow being that plus because its a mid attack.
I'm okay with it since if I'm not mistaken there are no true blockstrings into shadows, so everyone can interrupt the blockstring with a jab and get a full combo. If I AM mistaken, well, maybe nerf that. But it kinda seems like the same thing as Green Lantern b13 xx close missiles, if they keep doing it predictably then interrupt that block string and blow them up.
 
mcpeanuts said:
I'm okay with it since if I'm not mistaken there are no true blockstrings into shadows, so everyone can interrupt the blockstring with a jab and get a full combo. If I AM mistaken, well, maybe nerf that. But it kinda seems like the same thing as Green Lantern b13 xx close missiles, if they keep doing it predictably then interrupt that block string and blow them up.
I think buttons into low shadow is a true blockstring, the others aren't?
 
Spencer said:
She came out on April 1st and was all over UFGT a month and a half later. From what I hear, she was even more represented at EVO.

FWIW, there were 4 Fukua's at UFGT Top 8, with Omniscyth messing with Fukua in pools and Fullbleed later messing with Fukua on his team now. No other Fukua's in Top 16. There were 3 Fukua's in Evo Top 8, and 6 in the Top 16.
 
Probably aren't true blockstrings, but leaving a big enough gap for a counter jab? I'll need some footage to believe that.
 
I know you can jab the overhead one, as a Cerebella player, you should have no problems dd'ing her whenever Fukua gets fast and loose with her clones.

Even if she does st.hk to try to stand far back enough, if it's not low shadow, you mgr dat sheit.
 
iLoli said:
I know you can jab the overhead one, as a Cerebella player, you should have no problems dd'ing her whenever Fukua gets fast and loose with her clones.

Even if she does st.hk to try to stand far back enough, if it's not low shadow, you mgr dat sheit.
Problem being : if it's low shadow, I'm fucked hard.
 
dragonos451 said:
Problem being : if it's low shadow, I'm fucked hard.
Well yeah, that's the mixup between low, high and throw.
She even has an anti mash built in with her armored throw.

That's why Mike put in tells.

I believe it's:
Looking back at her nails:Mid
Flipping her hair:Overhead
Pointing at her shoes:Low.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think Bella wins that matchup, but you do have certain advantages up close that other characters do not.

If you see a shadow midscreen, Titan Knuckle that shit.

If you see Fukua going for bullshit crossups, DH that shit.

My friend uploaded a ft10 between another friend and myself and while it was the worst set ever because of recording, a new screen and it being 2 in morning, there are things that you can watch to see what Cerebella can do.
 
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iLoli said:
If you see a shadow midscreen, Titan Knuckle that shit.

If you see Fukua going for bullshit crossups, DH that shit.
Shadow startup : around 30f
Titan knuckle startup : 21f
If you do it too late, full MCH combo in your face.
...nope.

DPing a crosss up is hard in this game, and we both know how devil horns is as dangerous for the user as for the opponent.
Still interested by the footage if you have a link.
 
mcpeanuts said:
I'm okay with it since if I'm not mistaken there are no true blockstrings into shadows, so everyone can interrupt the blockstring with a jab and get a full combo. If I AM mistaken, well, maybe nerf that. But it kinda seems like the same thing as Green Lantern b13 xx close missiles, if they keep doing it predictably then interrupt that block string and blow them up.

The Low shadow is fast enough that if Fukua does cr.HP xx Low Shadow and you try to jab you'll get counterhit. Maybe bella could Diamond Drop because its faster (and throws always win trades) but other characters are forced to respect the low shadow and not press buttons unless they want to try an invincible reversal which is risky but a good option to have.
 
Out of curiosity, how is one character more free to throws than another since teching is all equal.

I throw more than any human being should, and I can't remember a time I thought, "Oh great it is character 'x'. She's easier to throw than character 'y'."
 
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Fukua doesn't have meterless moves that are throw invincible. If she wants to avoid a throw mix up, it's BFF or nothing. Maybe the level 3 too, I don't care enough to look that up. Fukua's wakeup options consists of upback, downback, throw tech.
 
"Tech? I don't know what you're talking about, I only mash."
I believe that's their reasoning.
 
Does most of the cast have throw immune moves?

PW I know doesn't. I'm about 95% sure Squigly doesn't. Maybe the invuln DPs? I thought they had a period where they could be thrown? I know Peacock does, but she has to choose between hit-immune or throw-immune.
 
Spencer said:
Does most of the cast have throw immune moves?

PW I know doesn't. I'm about 95% sure Squigly doesn't. Maybe the invuln DPs? I thought they had a period where they could be thrown? I know Peacock does, but she has to choose between hit-immune or throw-immune.
Squigly has charged DP and daisy pusher (Which is unavoidable if you try to throw her). SBO is also invincible, but obviously not very useful at close range
Even Painwheel has buer thresher, which is completely invincible, and death crawl, which is mostly invincible until the first active frames (Where it's only hit invincible, but any regular throw is likely to have whiffed by then)
 
Spencer said:
Does most of the cast have throw immune moves?

PW I know doesn't. I'm about 95% sure Squigly doesn't. Maybe the invuln DPs? I thought they had a period where they could be thrown? I know Peacock does, but she has to choose between hit-immune or throw-immune.

I would also consider PW and Peacock to be pretty vulnerable to throws because of their limited reversals. Honestly they, in general, don't have good reversal options of any kind. Fukua is in the same boat.

Filia, Fortune, Parasoul, Bella, Big Band, etc. all have meterless reversals that are invincible to both hits and throws. Bella's and Big Band's are a bit more limited since their hitboxes are weird.
 
Spencer said:
Does most of the cast have throw immune moves?

PW I know doesn't. I'm about 95% sure Squigly doesn't. Maybe the invuln DPs? I thought they had a period where they could be thrown? I know Peacock does, but she has to choose between hit-immune or throw-immune.
Just like how some characters are easier to air reset because they don't have a double jump/air jump.

Air resetting Parasoul, good idea.
Air resetting Filia, bad idea.

I am Cerebella, I can dd you for trying to throw me, DD you for trying to throw me, etc.etc.
I am Squigly, I can jump jab mk divekick combo you for trying to throw me, bury you for trying to throw me, etc. etc.
I am Fukua, I will be scoped out of everything, unlike my sister Filia, who has a dp and a dp super.
 
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dragonos451 said:
"Tech? I don't know what you're talking about, I only mash."
I believe that's their reasoning.

You also have to keep in mind that if you're up against Bella or Fukua, throw-techs don't do you much good except if your back is to the corner and you think they'll go for a normal throw to keep you there.

In those cases having a throw invincible reversal is more important since you can't tech.
 
iLoli said:
Just like how some characters are easier to air reset because they don't have a double jump/air jump.

Air resetting Parasoul, good idea.
Air resetting Filia, bad idea.

I am Cerebella, I can dd you for trying to throw me, DD you for trying to throw me, etc.etc.
I am Squigly, I can jump jab mk divekick combo you for trying to throw me, bury you for trying to throw me, etc. etc.
I am Fukua, I will be scoped out of everything, unlike my sister Filia, who has a dp and a dp super.
Well Fukua can j.hk you for a heavy counterhit it you try to throw her, just like Squigly can jump jab
 
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You are talking player tendencies there. almost everyone can take that particular option. Big band, val bella etc. Different levels of bootleg conversions but still there.
 
Spencer said:
Why are we expecting nerfs, by the way? Has something been said, or is it just speculative?
for me its speculative. but at the same time its certain.

either it'll be no dhc out of BFF on 2nd hit

then tinkering with blockstun on the shadows. AND MAYBE switch it to one shadow PER combo (for you shadow peepz using it for 8k)


btw to the person that thinks squigly is beaten by fukua i fought luweewu in a private set. SHE DOES give fukua some trouble. i dare say ALOT of trouble. i should know. i was having a hard time trying to keep squigs without charge. i'm not theory fighting on that. i'm using practice in my thoughts for that.
 
Actually, while we are talking about this, maybe you all can clear some things up.

Thresher has starting frames in which you can block on reaction, no? Same with a few other air supers, right?

And I thought invuln reversals had a period in which they could be hit or thrown, right?

Am I going crazy and making stuff up?
 
Spencer said:
Actually, while we are talking about this, maybe you all can clear some things up.

Thresher has starting frames in which you can block on reaction, no? Same with a few other air supers, right?

if its post flash.....get tresher'd same with the other air supers

And I thought invuln reversals had a period in which they could be hit or thrown, right?
um..... if you're bella?

Am I going crazy and making stuff up?

you're crazy for picking shitwheel(even though i will learn her)

answered.
 
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Tomo009 said:
I often agree with what you say but this is a situation where I raised an eyebrow to every part of your post haha.

Val's normals just win, it is basically a game of can Fukua find a moment to be above Val.

I think the matchup is fairly even maybe slightly in Bella's favour

I also think Fukua handily beats Peacock


Dreamepitaph said:
@Hilary i disagree about the bella match up.

I can agree to disagree with these. I think we just observe and talk to very different players. <3
 
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alexpi said:
Fukua doesn't have meterless moves that are throw invincible. If she wants to avoid a throw mix up, it's BFF or nothing. Maybe the level 3 too, I don't care enough to look that up. Fukua's wakeup options consists of upback, downback, throw tech.

So spend 1 bar to beat every mix up except block and get a full combo out of it isn't good? Throw mix ups don't mean shit vs fukua in reality. Have fun committing
 
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dekillsage said:
So spend 1 bar to beat every mix up except block and get a full combo out of it isn't good? Throw mix ups don't mean shit vs fukua in reality. Have fun committing
BFF pre-flash startup is long enough that you can whiff a tight low/throw attempt and still block it afterwards
 
zeknife said:
BFF pre-flash startup is long enough that you can whiff a tight low/throw attempt and still block it afterwards
people time it though. throw whiff and you get hit. the low I do know cause i got bopped for trying that with luweewu. i think it depends on the character to be brutually honest.

besides not many people make the throw tight because they either want the opponent to block low to anticipate and so the throw break window is shorter.
 
zeknife said:
BFF pre-flash startup is long enough that you can whiff a tight low/throw attempt and still block it afterwards
You can really whiff a throw and have time to block? I wouldn't have thought the recovery on throw whiffs was fast enough. Does every character in the game have the same amount of recovery for throw whiffs or is this character specific?
 
mcpeanuts said:
You can really whiff a throw and have time to block? I wouldn't have thought the recovery on throw whiffs was fast enough. Does every character in the game have the same amount of recovery for throw whiffs or is this character specific?
someone test this.

throw whiff will get you bopped. but a good tight low will get you time to block.
 
mcpeanuts said:
You can really whiff a throw and have time to block? I wouldn't have thought the recovery on throw whiffs was fast enough. Does every character in the game have the same amount of recovery for throw whiffs or is this character specific?
In-game frame data says -37 for whiffed throws
I don't know what the exact BFF startup is but hey math is for nerds

 
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zeknife said:
BFF pre-flash startup is long enough that you can whiff a tight low/throw attempt and still block it afterwards

Trying it out in lab, you are right, but god damn that is crazy tight, and you're sure as hell not combo'ing off of that throw.

Almost impossible doing it with a low lp (couldn't do it with PW or MF. I was able to do it with Val). That said, I think this may be one of those "good on paper" things. By the time she is out of hitstun, it is too late, bff will hit you. If she isn't out of hitstun, you whiff the throw anyway.

I'll keep doing it, but I'm saying that you won't be able to catch her reliably in a game with it.

Edited to add: Also, I'd be surprised if you could combo out of that throw while reliably expecting a BFF.
 
dekillsage said:
So spend 1 bar to beat every mix up except block and get a full combo out of it isn't good? Throw mix ups don't mean shit vs fukua in reality. Have fun committing

Actually BFF is slow enough that if I do a light attack on your wakeup (for example) I'll recover in time to block a reversal BFF. Its also incredibly easy to safe-jump, or I can just do a late jump-in which BFF will whiff against since BFF only hits in front of Fukua or I can do a crossup which will beat it too.

Reversal BFF is useful to have but pretty much any other invincible super in the game makes a better reversal than it, except maybe Daisy Pusher.
 
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