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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

IsaVulpes said:
Frame Data for normal throws is 7/1/28.
BFF has 29f preflash startup.

So a perfectly meaty throw would work, but everything else gets hit.

I think
It's a lot easier to do consistently (in training mode) than that would suggest, so who knows

Spencer said:
Trying it out in lab, you are right, but god damn that is crazy tight, and you're sure as hell not combo'ing off of that throw.

Almost impossible doing it with a low lp (couldn't do it with PW or MF. I was able to do it with Val). That said, I think this may be one of those "good on paper" things. By the time she is out of hitstun, it is too late, bff will hit you. If she isn't out of hitstun, you whiff the throw anyway.

I'll keep doing it, but I'm saying that you won't be able to catch her reliably in a game with it.

Edited to add: Also, I'd be surprised if you could combo out of that throw while reliably expecting a BFF.

How would comboing after the throw be a problem? Reacting to whether the throw succeeded or not is a non-issue unless your reaction time is 10 times the human average.
 
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I'm pretty sure Daisy Pusher is the worst reversal super in the game.

The plus side is that playing Squigly taught me to block.
 
@alexpi

Yeah, my defense improved with Squigs quite a bit.

@zeknife

Do this. Put dummy on reversal. Record 1 as BFF, Record 2 as Drill super, Record 3 as something throwable (jabs maybe?). Set "recording number" to random, and try not to get hit. That is more indicative of what you are doing in a set. Can you react to mashed out BFF, while also having to deal with threat of Drill/Fireball super, while also being able to punish throw set ups.

Hell, get rid of the drill super and just try it with can you block BFF while punishing jabs. It is tough as fuck, and I think more in the realm of 'not possible'.

But yeah, you're right. Take back what I said about combo'ing off of the throw. That was my fault.
 
zeknife said:
It's a lot easier to do consistently (in training mode) than that would suggest, so who knows
After some further investigation, it turns out Vulpes is right about the 1-frame window
It's possible to use Squigly's divekick buffer to make the timing easier, given the right setup, but I guess most characters are out of luck unless you find some other way to buffer a 1-frame reset
Diamond drop seems like a good option since it's faster than regular throws, but I must admit recovering from a regular throw in time isn't as easy to do consistently as I implied

Nerf Fukua or something? Or just reset her in the air if you think she's being a jerk. Fast surprise lows are good too unless they're mashing hk drill in the air.
 
alexpi said:
I'm pretty sure Daisy Pusher is the worst reversal super in the game.

The plus side is that playing Squigly taught me to block.

Really? All it taught me was how to reversal tag or do reversal SBO > DHC > Dynamo
 
Jason said:
Really? All it taught me was how to reversal tag or do reversal SBO > DHC > Dynamo

She's my second on a team of two. She's all I've got!

Also of interest to the conversation earlier:

lk.clone = 20 on block
mk.clone = 30 point blank (doesn't seem like you can combo into it from basic attacks?)
hk.cone = 30 on block.

Just did c.lk > clone for each and used the numbers training mode gave me.
 
Can we please not nerf Fukua please? Unless a bunch of characters are getting nerfed?

I dunno, I can't really advocate for any nerfs other than perhaps a really slight adjustment to Valentine at this point. Every character in the game has flaws and/or matchups that they don't do particularly well in except Val.

I really don't think Val deserves any sizable nerf at this stage anyway. The only reason she sticks out is because she doesn't have any real weakness, I don't feel she is too dominant and she does require you to build a team properly for her.

So eh, let the top characters rock, give some buffs to Painwheel and Big Band if anything, rest of the cast is fine, I think.
 
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Tomo009 said:
Can we please not nerf Fukua please? Unless a bunch of characters are getting nerfed?

I dunno, I can't really advocate for any nerfs other than perhaps a really slight adjustment to Valentine at this point. Every character in the game has flaws and/or matchups that they don't do particularly well in except Val.

I really don't think Val deserves any sizable nerf at this stage anyway. The only reason she sticks out is because she doesn't have any real weakness, I don't feel she is too dominant and she does require you to build a team properly for her.

So eh, let the top characters rock, give some buffs to Painwheel and Big Band if anything, rest of the cast is fine, I think.

please disregard what i caused. its all just suspicion on my part and so i apologize to everyone to making an ass out of myself for indirectly making everyone look at fukua pre-preemptively instead of waiting for what happens
 
Tomo009 said:
Can we please not nerf Fukua please? Unless a bunch of characters are getting nerfed?

I dunno, I can't really advocate for any nerfs other than perhaps a really slight adjustment to Valentine at this point. Every character in the game has flaws and/or matchups that they don't do particularly well in except Val.

I really don't think Val deserves any sizable nerf at this stage anyway. The only reason she sticks out is because she doesn't have any real weakness, I don't feel she is too dominant and she does require you to build a team properly for her.

So eh, let the top characters rock, give some buffs to Painwheel and Big Band if anything, rest of the cast is fine, I think.
Meanwhile at EVO...1 Val in top 16(some dude named duckator), 9 Doubles and 7 Filias. When are the results going to start mattering for this character with no weaknesses?
 
Val has never actually been an extremely popular character overall (except for in Melbourne where fucking everyone plays Val), and since you aren't punished for character choices in this game nearly as hard as in other games (because it's actually pretty balanced) it leaves room for players of other characters to git gud and shoulder out existing Val players.

As a community we don't have enough truly high level players to make tiers truly matter yet, but maybe at high level tiers won't even be that big a deal since it's pretty balanced? i dunno
 
ClarenceMage said:
Val has never actually been an extremely popular character overall (except for in Melbourne where fucking everyone plays Val), and since you aren't punished for character choices in this game nearly as hard as in other games (because it's actually pretty balanced) it leaves room for players of other characters to git gud and shoulder out existing Val players.

As a community we don't have enough truly high level players to make tiers truly matter yet, but maybe at high level tiers won't even be that big a deal since it's pretty balanced? i dunno
soo what you're saying is that this game is as balanced as p4a? #kappa
 
Iphantom said:
Meanwhile at EVO...1 Val in top 16(some dude named duckator), 9 Doubles and 7 Filias. When are the results going to start mattering for this character with no weaknesses?
Tournament placings =/= tier placings. The character is not represented all that well in the top echelon of America players.

Players > characters in pretty much any game.
 
Tomo009 said:
Players > characters in pretty much any game.

Shit, even in UMVC3 where you pick a top tier team or you die instantly, Justin Wong won EVO 2014 with a very mid tier team just because he's that good.
 
Tomo009 said:
Tournament placings =/= tier placings. The character is not represented all that well in the top echelon of America players.

Players > characters in pretty much any game.
If top players aren't picking a character, it says a lot about that character.

Plus, Val not represented well in America? ROFL. Omni, ThatOneOtherDude, Chilldog, Duckator, and Nekro Surge all play her.

She just isn't all that amazing; with the Filia/Double shell being what it is, Val's lack of assists, and the fact that Fukua and Peacock both are better as a point character, there's no spot on a team where she's even the second best option.
 
Omni is average, TOOD is average, Chilldog is average, Duckator got nerfed, Nekro Surge is a Peacock player now? as far as I know.

The top eschelon is filled with lots of Not-Val players right now.
 
Yeah I'm not convinced that any character in the game really needs nerfs.

Even with the ludicrous advantage on block that Fukua's shadows have... Honestly I'm more concerned that messing with a character who is currently perceived as strong or weak will make things worse in the long run.

That goes double for Painwheel because I've never gotten the impression that she's actually low tier.
 
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Isn't chilldog bella/peacock/filia?
 
Val stopped being "popular" when vanilla changed to sde. She was one of, if not the most popular characters in vanilla though.

Wingzero was a val main as well as psyken also. I dont know why wing dropped val. At one point in time wing was the only person that could consistently go even against/ beat duck (mirror)
 
ClarenceMage said:
Omni is average, TOOD is average, Chilldog is average, Duckator got nerfed, Nekro Surge is a Peacock player now? as far as I know.
If those guys are only average then 95% of the playerbase is below average. :/

On character representation + tournament placings: Fortune has even less representation than Val yet people have always been calling her busted (SDE was perfectly understandable, the later versions, not so much). Taluda's Fortune is amazing but to be perfectly honest, these days you see his Painwheel doing all of the work.

I still believe that Valentine is in the top 3 (I used to say she was the best but Peacock and her crazy meter gain are creeping in), but it's too late at night for me to find the motivation to type out my reasoning on how I see the characters tier-wise.
 
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Inuchiyo says Japan* sees Valentine as the worst character in the game, and Cerebella/Fukua as two of the best.

I still think Val is really good, myself, but I honestly have a hard time seeing Squigly/Painwheel/Cerebella as bad.

* which is all of like 5 players? All of whom are worse than Inuchiyo, who now plays Fukua and Cerebella, so...
 
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Japan confirmed damage whores. Funny that they see val as low when baiken seems to be there best player and uses val point. Still wondering who in the hell inuchiyo plays against though. Never seen any games of him outside of evo. Unless he has some secret japan identity.
 
I think she is good but not actually op or best in show even. But a lot of things that are suggested as counters here are not that applicable or even real things sometimes so ehh. As I said before though i feel in this game with balancing so well put together right now tiers hardly warrant discussion but some of this stuff is pretty funny.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
If those guys are only average then 95% of the playerbase is below average. :/

95% of ANY player base is going to be worse than the top 5% is, and Skullgirls players are not the type of players that have been playing at high level competition in other games for many years. This is a young scene full of new-ish people who are not already high level at other well-established series. It will be interesting to see where this scene and the game's emergent balance goes as players level up over the years, especially since this game has a LOT of areas of optimisation and improvement.

The dead horse of general SG player skill that we often come back to beat when talking about tiers and balance in this game is beat often, but for good reason.
 
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95% of players being below average and 95% of players being not as good as the top 5%...Arent the same thing.

Though yes in sg's case most players arent playing at a level that other games would consider "high"

But then you get into this argument of what "high level play" is exactly. It isnt easy to pin down.
Are justin wong and daigo what are considered high level play barometers? Or is high level play simply knowing the basics and having passing execution for bnbs and knowing most fundamental choices that the game offers you... (Rhetorical)
 
I think it's pretty funny that Clarence claims that people who made top 8 at Evo 2013 are "average".

I also think it's pretty funny that Clarence claims Omni is "new-ish" and "not already high-level at other well-established series".
 
Cynical said:
If top players aren't picking a character, it says a lot about that character.
For example that the character is boring as fuck, or very difficult, or requires a specific playstyle that not a lot of people can call their own, or a billion other reasons.

How many Yuns are there in USF4 Top8? How many Kokonoes in BBCP Top8? Does that mean these characters suck?

Plus, Val not represented well in America? ROFL. Omni, ThatOneOtherDude, Chilldog, Duckator, and Nekro Surge all play her.
Omni didn't enter
Chilldog does not play Val
NekroSurge is not on the same level
+ MPGame didn't enter (you forgot this guy)

.. So really, there are 2 people on your "list", both of whom made Top32?
 
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Mike_Z said:
I still think Val is really good, myself, but I honestly have a hard time seeing Squigly/Painwheel/Cerebella as bad.
It depends on your definition of "bad" in the first place? "The worst" and "bad" are two very differing things.

Then there's the question whether you go by how good the character is when played (assist backed or not, metered or not), or by how much of an asset the character is to a team (providing great assists, DHCs, etc)

And even if you 'correctly' evaluate all of these, there are questions on how to weigh it (is "All 5-5s" the same as "Half 7-3, half 3-7"? Is a good matchup against a good character worth more than against a popular character?), whether team versatility plays a role (Is it better for a character to provide a great assist to everyone, or for a character to provide a slightly greater assist that can only get utilized by one other member of the cast?), how much of a drawback certain things are (Valentine is the character that's the most susceptible to getting snapped, how does this reflect on her tier placement?), etc etc etc

Blanket statements like "Valentine is the worst" or "Painwheel isn't bad" don't really tell a whole lot.

All of whom are worse than Inuchiyo
Where do you have this from?
 
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Cynical said:
I think it's pretty funny that Clarence claims that people who made top 8 at Evo 2013 are "average".

I also think it's pretty funny that Clarence claims Omni is "new-ish" and "not already high-level at other well-established series".

Cut that shit out, I'm not here to play passive aggressive forum bullshit.

Skullgirls results are always fluctuating since there's no dominators, so top 8 in SG is only representative of what sort of skill level it takes to get to top 8, not that the people who are in Top 8 are necessarily a definite cut above the rest, aside from probably a few notable mentions. I'd like to see the rest of the top 8 matches once they get uploaded to see the general level of top8 evo, since Top 4 was a Dekillsage murder train.

If Omni or anyone else that plays sg has been playing fgs for longer than a few years, that's irrelevant to my point. Dime has been playing for like two decades or some shit and he still falls under the similar headline of "player who hasn't been playing at a high/top level in an established game series". Not calling you out Dime, since you've told me at length how much you suck. :P
 
ClarenceMage said:
I'd like to see the rest of the top 8 matches once they get uploaded
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1zqVamEc1ADoKBzVQ-xOSxunJxGv-R4K

There were 4 Bellas in Top4; every other character was present either 0 or 1 times.
Is Bella four times better than any other character? Or does it just so happen that the best players run Bella?

And how much does 2/3 and it being a knockout tournament really mean in the first place? Luck can be the deciding factor on whether I make it into Top8 or not out of pools.
Daigo didn't make it into Top32 @Evo, is he washed up? Or does his character suck? .. Or would he still beat 99% of people of that Top32 in say an FT10?
 
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Mike_Z said:
Inuchiyo says Japan* sees Valentine as the worst character in the game, and Cerebella/Fukua as two of the best.

I still think Val is really good, myself, but I honestly have a hard time seeing Squigly/Painwheel/Cerebella as bad.

* which is all of like 5 players? All of whom are worse than Inuchiyo, who now plays Fukua and Cerebella, so...

Speaking for PW, I don't think she is bad or terrible. She just has a few quirks. She has a hell of a learning curve which is going to contribute to the view that she is bad. She is awful solo. She has some terrible matchups (PW v Parasoul). She is hard to fit on a team anywhere but point (her assists are meh). She has gtfo reversals, and she builds meter slowly compared to some of the others which limits her team selection.

At this point, I think the "strong" characters are just going to be the ones that have the fewest bad MU (Bella/Fukua/MF) or have the most favorable MUs (maybe Peacock?).

I'm fast coming around to what was said on stream months ago by @dekillsage (I think?). "There is no low tier except solo."
 
I probably said that
though at the moment I think the Eliza they had at evo is the best character in the game when solo.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
If Omni or anyone else that plays sg has been playing fgs for longer than a few years, that's irrelevant to my point. Dime has been playing for like two decades or some shit and he still falls under the similar headline of "player who hasn't been playing at a high/top level in an established game series".

Sev, Omni, and a few others aren't just good at SG though. they've placed well in other games. Not to mention Mike, who is like.. as OG FFA as it gets.

I agree the majority is new/fresh, but we do have some old hands in key places.
 
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