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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

@Dreamepitaph that plays right back to fukua playstyle. M clone is like plus 10 on block or something and you can't block during air dashes or double jump iirc. I'm away from my pc right now but maybe I'll have to make a video.
 
Instead of talking play styles, shouldn't the discussion be more along the lines of "If you do this, then your opponent could (and should) do this?"
 
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cloudKing211 said:
If you got the idea, that I believe filia is val but better, I'm sorry my meaning did not get across. Val wants to get confirms and stay in on her opponent. She generally does not want to play lame. All I meant was even with her mobility she has a harder time staying in and keeping pressure, since her air dash is a little slower and angled it gives the opponent time to adjust to val pressuring than say filias I ad pressure. Filia's just faster, not more mobile. ( and yes I know mobility is a thing)
Val doesn't want to play lame? I throw like 50 dead crosses per match. I guess against peacock, big band, squigly, double, fukua, and head off fortune you want to go in. However, against everyone else playing lame isn't such a bad idea.
 
Prototype said:
@Dreamepitaph that plays right back to fukua playstyle. M clone is like plus 10 on block or something and you can't block during air dashes or double jump iirc. I'm away from my pc right now but maybe I'll have to make a video.
you would have to time it perfectly to catch double jump. a val should just double jump(goes over M shadow) then air dash.

once val is mid range then its a dangerous game for fukua. plz make a video cause this is one of the worst matchups for fukua.

along with head on fortune.
 
@Prototype
+30 I think? I think lk.shadow is +20 and the other two are +30 (though don't quote me).
 
I'm at work now but I'll try and make something tonight. @death that's what i meant trying to tier list and bake bread.
 
dekillsage said:
man play peacock
Lol I do sometimes but I always liked Val more. Speaking of though we only really talked about Val's match up against everyone. Can we talk about someone else say parasoul or squigly?
 
I asked it a few pages back, but I'll re-ask to try and get an answer.

Does anyone think there are legitimately any solo v solo matches worse than 6-4 ?
 
Um... You can block during double jump.
 
Spencer said:
I asked it a few pages back, but I'll re-ask to try and get an answer.

Does anyone think there are legitimately any solo v solo matches worse than 6-4 ?
Several. Character with the "bad" side of the matchup comes first:

Band vs. Bella
Band vs. Para
Para vs. Peacock
Para vs. Fukua
Filia vs. Para (more like 35/65, but still)
Peacock vs. Band (haven't actually played this from either side, but from what I've heard from players on both sides, it's basically impossible for Peacock)
Val vs. Squigly
*maybe* Val vs. Bella (assists make this one suck a lot less, so it's not really relevant, but solo Val really can't do shit to Solo Bella).
 
cloudKing211 said:
[Valentine] generally does not want to play lame.

And here is the problem.

I, too, thought that Valentine wasn't that great. Ms Fortune clearly did everything she did, except better. Valentine is overrated.

The problem was that I was trying to play Valentine to rushdown heavy. Once I started playing her far more lame however, I started losing far far less.

If you play Valentine more lame, her strengths will reveal themselves to you.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
so play her like a street fighter character and just play ryu? cause if so then play the real ryu....play fukua.

If you're going to make ridiculous analogies between games, at least make your analogies make sense by having some vague idea of what the hell you're talking about.
 
Against cerebella, painwheel, filia, parasoul, and head on fortune you generally want to keep at angles they can't reach to well and call your assists and throw dead crosses as you see fit.
 
ClarenceMage said:
If you're going to make ridiculous analogies between games, at least make your analogies make sense by having some vague idea of what the hell you're talking about.
Fukua as a concept is very close to ryu:

Fireballs, dp fukua spin kick super, hurricane kick becomes drill kick etc etc.


His notion that playing val lame is better accomplished by playing fukua lame is preposterous though. Val is a footsies based character that footsies based on not being there, and getting there without you being able to stop her, fukua is a footsies based character that footsies with long range pokes and doesnt play lame or aggressive for long periods, but prefers to switch between both styles of play at will to keep her opponent off balance.
 
uhhhhh Fukua really isnt that close to Ryu at all , Ryu is more similar to Filia
 
The Fukua=Ryu analogy is all around terrible.

Can we not even bring it up?

Just because they both have good fireball games does not mean they have similar concepts.

How about the fact that Ryu has always had a DP, and Fukua does not have one?

How about Hurricane Kick being airborne and used to escape pressure, while Drill is negative and used more of as a horizontal dp. Is Double Butt SRK now? Hair/Airball is the slightly better analogy here.

Parasoul has a similar moveset to Guile who has a similar moveset to Bulleta therefore Bulleta=Parasoul.

Maybe if Fukua's Clones weren't plus a thousand on block, she had no double jump and she had a decent dp, maybe there would be something to talk about.

And then you'd have to mention which Ryu you're talking about because each Ryu is pretty different, etc etc.
 
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DeathArcana said:
uhhhhh Fukua really isnt that close to Ryu at all , Ryu is more similar to Filia
Nah, Ryu can actually zone with projectiles.
 
I don't think it's unfair to say that Fukua is like Ryu, given that she's pretty clearly based on Demitri from VSav.

Saying that Filia is like Ryu, on the other hand, is kind of insane, given that Ryu's biggest strength is his mid-screen game -- the exact thing Filia is notoriously lacking in.
 
ClarenceMage said:
If you're going to make ridiculous analogies between games, at least make your analogies make sense by having some vague idea of what the hell you're talking about.
first off don't get so snippy i'm simply joking. 2. to keep on topic whats more to discuss on val? her approaches? her concepts?(that seems to be current as you think she should be played conservative while cloud is more momentum based). and 3. what else to talk about? maybe talk about squigly or what makes peacock so good?
 
im just saying her moveset is the most "shoto" out of the entire cast as she has a tatsu, shoryu, and hado, even though her hado isnt as good as a Ryu's, but it is really unfair to compare the two series as they play nothing alike so can we just stop here on that
 
iLoli said:
Snip


I have no idea how you be thinkin' but that shit be weird yo. Especially like how there cant be more than one character that resembles ryu in a fighting game. And yes bomber is a dp... It has the motion and everything while also having invincibility. It just doesnt hit as high as a normal dp.


I really dont get the concept that young people have that any example is auto bad if it isnt a 100% correlation to what is being compared...

No one is saying that fukua is exactly like ryu or more like ryu than filia or anything. Its just been said that she can resemble him in many instances. She also resembles akuma in certain instances and a grappler in others...
 
Ah, so the people who DON'T think Val is great think she is a linear rushdown character?

Well that could explain a lot because to me that isn't Val at all. Val is great as a mid range threat, you cannot approach a defensive Val with good assists. She is a wall that forces you into the corner.
 
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Dime_x said:
I have no idea how you be thinkin' but that shit be weird yo. Especially like how there cant be more than one character that resembles ryu in a fighting game. And yes bomber is a dp... It has the motion and everything while also having invincibility. It just doesnt hit as high as a normal dp.


I really dont get the concept that young people have that any example is auto bad if it isnt a 100% correlation to what is being compared...

No one is saying that fukua is exactly like ryu or more like ryu than filia or anything. Its just been said that she can resemble him in many instances. She also resembles akuma in certain instances and a grappler in others...
Because it's a bad idea to do so?

Cerebella resembles Tager because she has j.down strong? Or because they both have bad backdashes?
Does Valentine resemble I-no or QB because they have dashes that send them upward?

It's surface deep.

How about we take a look at the character's mechanics and their purpose before we start to say "they're like x".

I never said Bomber wasn't a Dp, I said "Is bomber SRK".
Is Bomber Shoryuken because it's invincible?
No, it's an invincible Reversal, but if you think of SRK as only an invincible reversal, you're doing that whole "surface deep" thing I was mentioning earlier.

She's like Ryu when she has an armored command grab? She's like Ryu when she has a super command grab? Like Ryu when she has almost no vertical coverage? She's like Ryu when she has button>fireball that's a true blockstring? What horizontal coverage move does Ryu have that's invincible? Does Ryu have a fireball you can duck?
 
iLoli said:
Because it's a bad idea to do so?

Cerebella resembles Tager because she has j.down strong? Or because they both have bad backdashes?
Does Valentine resemble I-no or QB because they have dashes that send them upward?

It's surface deep.

How about we take a look at the character's mechanics and their purpose before we start to say "they're like x".

I never said Bomber wasn't a Dp, I said "Is bomber SRK".
Is Bomber Shoryuken because it's invincible?
No, it's an invincible Reversal, but if you think of SRK as only an invincible reversal, you're doing that whole "surface deep" thing I was mentioning earlier.

She's like Ryu when she has an armored command grab? She's like Ryu when she has a super command grab? Like Ryu when she has almost no vertical coverage? She's like Ryu when she has button>fireball that's a true blockstring? What horizontal coverage move does Ryu have that's invincible? Does Ryu have a fireball you can duck?


I dont... Really? Like seriously? Because one character has a different move than another character has, this means they arent comparable even though they share similar moves...

Yes dude, tager and bella ARE comparable on the moves you used as an example. As well in other places. And yes bulleta resembles guile and resembles parasoul with her missiles compared to tear shots compared to sonic booms. And when i saw vals forward airdash the first time the first thing i thought of was i-no


So...i really dont know what to say. You are literaly saying that all comparisons are shit if they arent 100% the same. So ken and ryu arent comparable by your logic and neither is Sagat.
 
Ryu wants you midscreen, Demitri wants you midscreen. Both of those characters can win there and have the tools to keep you there.

Fukua's clones and fireballs are a setup for her mixup game, she wants you midscreen until she can land a hit, it's why she has an armored command grab, it's why her high clone goes the least furthest of the clones, it's why you can duck some of her fireballs and run under a few others, it's why everything she has besides BFF is grab vulnerable instead of invincible. It's why she has an amazing button to air to air with, but it whiffs crouching, it's why buttons>low clone is a real blockstring.
 
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iLoli said:
Ryu wants you midscreen, Demitri wants you midscreen. Both of those characters can win there and have the tools to keep you there.

Fukua's clones and fireballs are a setup for her mixup game, she wants you midscreen until she can land a hit, it's why she has an armored command grab, it's why her high clone goes the least furthest of the clones, it's why you can do some of her fireballs and run other a few others, it's why everything she has besides BFF is grab vulnerable instead of invincible. It's why she has an amazing button to air to air with, but it whiffs crouching, it's why buttons>low clone is a real blockstring.
Yes those are the ways in which she differs. You are neglecting the ways in which she is the same though, which is perfectly fine for pointing out differences. The same as comparisons are fine for pointing out similarities.

And besides you i dont know many people that dont think demitri and ryu arent very similar. There gameplay styles differ in many tactics, but at the end of the day they are designed very much like each other.
 
iLoli said:
She's like Ryu when she has button>fireball that's a true blockstring?
Uh, it's been a while since I've played any version of SF2, but I thought that c.mk xx hadouken was a blockstring in HF and ST at most ranges?

Also, prior to ST, ALL throws might as well have been command grabs.

EDIT:
Fukua's clones and fireballs are a setup for her mixup game, she wants you midscreen until she can land a hit
What, and Ryu doesn't go for crossups into tick-throws every time he scores a knockdown?
 
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Dime_x said:
I dont... Really? Like seriously? Because one character has a different move than another character has, this means they arent comparable even though they share similar moves...

Yes dude, tager and bella ARE comparable on the moves you used as an example. As well in other places. And yes bulleta resembles guile and resembles parasoul with her missiles compared to tear shots compared to sonic booms. And when i saw vals forward dash the first time the first thing i thought of was i-no


So...i really dont know what to say. You are literaly saying that all comparisons are shit if they arent 100% the same. So ken and ryu arent comparable by your logic and neither is Sagat.
Sonic Boom is like Smile Missile? Not Bats?

What I'm trying to say is that when you look at moves in a vacuum then sure maybe whatever?
But that's disingenuous.
Because a character is more than their animations.
How about the character's speed, how about the character's frame data, etc etc.

Comparing Guile to Bulleta pretty much stops at "they're both charge characters".
Ever wondered to yourself why Bulleta has 2 command grabs while both Guile and Parasoul don't?
Ever wondered why Guile and Parasoul have a flash kick and Bulleta does not?
Ever wondered to yourself why Bulleta's dash is the best thing ever and why Parasoul and Guile have "eeehhh" overall mobility?
Ever wondered why Bulleta has high and low smile missles and Guile does not?
 
iLoli said:
Sonic Boom is like Smile Missile? Not Bats?
Ever wondered to yourself why Bulleta has 2 command grabs while both Guile and Parasoul don't?
Ever wondered why Guile and Parasoul have a flash kick and Bulleta does not?
Because VSav systems are different; every character has at least one command grab, and no one has truly invincible reversals.

Ever wondered to yourself why Bulleta's dash is the best thing ever and why Parasoul and Guile have "eeehhh" overall mobility?
Parasoul's ground dash is godlike, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Ever wondered why Bulleta has high and low smile missles and Guile does not?
Because with VSav's air mobility, she needs that extra coverage.
 
There's a pretty big difference between characters who "defend their ground" and characters who excel at keeping you away from them.

Why does Peacock have a teleport and no universal DP?
Why does Bulleta have a teleport and no universal DP?

Why is it that when you are a character's length away and block a boom and/or tear, you are counterhit if you press a button versus theirs?
 
I don't think you are quite getting it
 
Its a COMPARISON, not a full length character guide. I dont know what to say other than that. Lol I'm supposed to discuss all these things you are talking about in one post everytime i post anything? The purpose of examples is to simplify things. No one is saying that any comparison is the 100% truth of a character.

That would be stupid. The same as insisting that a characters entire inner workings be on every post.
 
Cynical said:
Because VSav systems are different; every character has at least one command grab, and no one has truly invincible reversals.


Parasoul's ground dash is godlike, I have no idea what you're talking about.


Because with VSav's air mobility, she needs that extra coverage.
Why is Bulleta's horizontal Dp motion a dp and not a charge?
Why is her GC not a charge?

And I said overall mobility, not ground dash. Between no air dashes, one jump and a good ground dash Parasoul's mobility is "eeehhh".

@Dime_x But that's THE THING.
We're here to break things down, that's what matchup discussion and character discussion is for. Why would you even try to stop at the surface level here or make disingenuous examples.

"Parasoul's low forward is a good low, comes out fast, puts her hurtbox down and is pretty easy to combo off" is something.

"Fukua is like Ryu" is slock, it doesn't actually tell you anything about Fukua and it misses VERY important things about this character like her lack of throw invincible reversals and her clones and her command grabs.

Making extremely light comparisons aren't doing anything for the breakdown of a character, nor is it doing anything for this thread. I'm not mad, just trying to show you why saying things like "Val's dash resembles I-no's" is crazy because they're not even used in the same way.
 
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