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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Why is Bulleta's horizontal Dp motion a dp and not a charge?
Why is her GC not a charge?
Again, system reasons. GCs make no sense as charge, and everyones "closest thing I have to a DP" move is also their GC.

And I said overall mobility, not ground dash. Between no air dashes, one jump and a good ground dash Parasoul's mobility is "eeehhh".
Don't forget about j.mk float. Parasouls (including me) don't use it enough; it's pretty damn good.
 
Again, system reasons. GCs make no sense as charge, and everyones "closest thing I have to a DP" move is also their GC.


Don't forget about j.mk float. Parasouls (including me) don't use it enough; it's pretty damn good.
Bulleta's and a few other characters have gc's that are too situational for that.

Bulleta can only get that animation out in blockstun, her other DP is trash. Why not make her non GC Dp a charge motion?
Bishamon dp can only be done at certain times and it's GC version actually gains invincibility.
I believe it's the same with QB.
 
Ah, so the people who DON'T think Val is great think she is a linear rushdown character?

Well that could explain a lot because to me that isn't Val at all. Val is great as a mid range threat, you cannot approach a defensive Val with good assists. She is a wall that forces you into the corner.
On the contrary, I think Val is a great character. First or second from the top of a potential tier list; not so much. Also I understand val can play lame but the nerf to dead cross makes it less useful as a zoning/spacing/lame play tool. That's the only reason I think Val needs to not be seen as a fish for an assist hit character, and more as a "I want to get you to this spot on screen where I am best" character.
 
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@iLoli


We can agree to disagree or whatever. I'm NOT trying to fully break down fukua in the tier thread. I'm not trying to fully break her down in her own reset thread. I'm not even trying to fully break her down in her gameplay thread. The only place id be trying to fully break her down is in an extremely concise guide.

I'm more than happy to break her down in small examples over time over the course of many posts.

Yes shes similar to ryu in many aspects, yes shes dissimilar to ryu in many aspects. When i compared her i POINTED OUT the similarity.

I could find damn near anything about any character to compare to ryu in some way. That doesnt make the comparison shit at all. It lets you and other people know where you can start looking at characters from a functionality perspective from the get go. After that you can delve deeper. It isnt rocket science. No one has the time or even the knowledge at this point to fully break down fukua. And even if they did... That shit is best saved for a guide. Not a random post in the tier thread.
 
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I feel before we state "Character X is S-Tier, and this other character sucks", we'd need to have a clear guideline on what actually constitutes Tier placement.

Ultimately what a Tier List *to me* reads as is: "Pick the characters at the top if you want to have the best shot at winning a tournament".
.. not necessarily the three highest ones, as their synergy might suck, but eg Double in bottom tier when she's undoubtedly a TOP contender for "Pick this character when you want to win a tournament" seems *tremendously* off to me. She might place low on a matchup chart, but on a Tier List? I don't think so.

♠♠♠

To me, a 'proper' tier list is a culmination of factors.

The first and most obvious factor are "Matchups":

The addition of "How good are you at landing a hit against X + how good are you at avoiding to get hit by X + what do you get out of hitting X + what does X get out of hitting you" provides you with a number representing "How many matches out of 100 would a top player running this character score against his clone playing X".
Buttons (hitbox-, range-, speed-, angle- and recovery-wise), Mobility Options, Mixup tools, Damage, Resets, defensive Options, Reversals, etc are tossed into a pot and stirred until one gets to a conclusion.

There are three main different ways of how matchups tend to play out:
1) 1v1
2) with common assists (eg "one lockdown, one DP")
3) with meter
For example you could go "Fukua beats Peacock in 1v1, loses when assists come into play as she then gets zoned out, is roughly equal when both are metered as Fukua gains a tremendous tool in Fireball super while Peacock doesn't really get anything".

Less obviously, you have to "Weigh the Matchups":

Winning against good characters is worth more than against bad;
Winning against common characters is worth more than against uncommon ones.

You need to further weigh the worth of the respective matchups based on how likely they are going to pop up based on the respective character positions;
- For example: Valentine having an (dis-)advantageous matchup against Double would barely matter, as Val is always run point and Double nearly always run anchor, so they are not going to end up fighting against each other much.

Bonus note: While showing up equally on a matchup chart, having two 5-5 matchups is generally preferable to having one 7-3 and one 3-7 matchup; since "just becoming good" makes you able to win every match, as opposed to people worse than you being able to win matches via counterpicks.

The third point to consider is "Team Value":

What does a character add to a team? Do they have a specific role that they fill?
This can be anything from "Great anchor due to catheads", "Strong assist choice", "Safe DHCs", "Strong Battery", or whatever.
Short: The main reasons for picking the character aside from its matchups.

In many cases -mostly when considering any character that's not the point- this is actually more relevant than their specific matchups or placement on a matchup chart.

If you want Brass Knuckle assist, it doesn't really matter whether BBand is the worst, 4th worst, or 3rd best character. You'll run him.

The fourth is "Versatility":

Tying in from the second part, how MANY of those roles does the specific character fulfill?
The worse a character is at this, the easier your overall gameplan is to shut down.
If any of your three characters can run on any spot of your team, you can DHC and Tag combo all you want, while scoffing at enemy snaps.
If you run a Valentine/Double Duo, the opponent landing an early hit and snapping in Double disrupts your entire playstyle and can win the game on the spot.

The fifth and final part is "Variance":

This is generally a part of matchup considerations, but IMO big enough to fill its own slot.
What I'm referring to is "Randomness", or the ability to completely tip the charts with raw reads.

Basically there are two different kind of matchups - safe, and risky ones.
The easiest example for a safe matchup would be if you were to clone Parasoul, and then just reduced the clone's damage output by a bit. Woop, 6-4 matchup - both characters have the same options, but one gets better reward for landing anything.
A 'risky' matchup on the other hand would be Parasoul-Filia. While pretty much every button of Parasoul's beats pretty much anything Filia attempts to do, Filia doing dumb shit and landing a random hit from a stupid Gregor can get her a win on the spot.
As an even simpler example for a risky matchup we take Solo Bella vs a Trio of choice. It is pretty clear here that in a 'perfect game' Bella is looking at a nigh insurmountable obstacle. In a real game however, sometimes the opponent will make a bad read or flat mistake, Bella mashes out a lvl3 and kills 2 characters right there.

This is of additional importance to see how to avoid being forced to fight in bad matchups and being able to create synergistic teams - eg a character who wins every matchup if they land that first hit can be put 3rd and tag-combo'd into; a character who has no issue landing hits but lacks the damage/mixup potential to really threaten their opponent can just DHC out after connecting with a stray button.

♠♠♠

I might have missed something, but this seems to be roughly what I'd use as base for evaluating tiers.

To write a proper list, we thus *IMO* need to do the following things in order:
- Create a 'universally agreed' matchup chart with definitive reasoning on every matchup, for all of the 3 cases
- Look at various Tournament say Top32s and/or create a list of decent-good players and their teams, to determine the most popular characters (100/132 people in a tourney playing Val doesn't matter when all of those 100 are Day1 players which can be beaten blindfolded with any character; 'popular' refers to 'popular amongst the tournament crowd'), then weigh the matchup chart accordingly
- Create 'Tier Lists' for Assists, DHCs, Tags (SSS+: Bella, F: Rest), Metergain, Supers, whatever; use this data to further change positions on the tier list (Double getting a rather nice boost at this spot)
- Lastly, reconsider whether characters should be placed higher or lower based on how their matchups actually play out - eg Filia has a lot of meh matchups, but when she's mostly entering the screen via Gregor DHC, that plays little to no role.

♠♠♠

I don't think I'm in a position to really write a tier list (because I'm not good enough, because I definitely have no idea about matchups of characters I don't play, and because I sorta trust in what I just outlined and I'm not doing all of that - let alone by myself), but here's some food for thought:

- Valentine might be overrated, as while being the 'perfect' point character, she's also the character the most susceptible to snaps / worst at utilizing team mechanics that aren't assists (eg a low health Parasoul can safe DHC into something and then you have anchor Parasoul regenerating red life and offering Pillar assist; a low health Valentine is probably better off just dying rather than spending two bars on getting... ..c.MK or something)
- Parasoul is seen by most as a point character - where she will most probably meet one of the following characters: Parasoul, Fortune, Peacock, Fukua, Valentine. Every single of these matchups is generally viewed as "Even at best". On the other hand, she is seen as having good matchups against Filia (unless Filia lands a single hit, and that she will if the opponent DHCs into her) and 'highly relevant' characters such as Painwheel and BigBand (+Double who she will never fight against). Does that really make a Top3 character?
- Bella is vastly underrated due to people losing against her and then going "Well I lost, but it was random! If I was better this wouldn't have happened!" as opposed to "Wow, this character is kinda good". Also, Tag. With everyone recognizing how strong of a tool it is, why does nobody seem to bother putting it on the list of things she brings to the table?
- What are Squigly's issues aside from Daisy Pusher being super shit and most of her gameplan requiring meter?

E: I don't really see what this "Is Fukua = Ryu or not?? And what about BBHood????" talk has to do with Tier List discussion?
 
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I doubt you're this fast at reading iLoli, did you just "Like" the post because it's long?
I liked it at "Variance" and was like "it's not going to become a fireball of a post at this point".
 
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Peacock is really good because she can control 3 or 4 spaces at a time with her projectiles and assists. That's why I think brass assist with her is soooooo good. He's armored (AND HUGE) it literally covers the ground space for you so all you have to focus on is controlling the air space with hk bomb and sid. Also the obvious knocking them full screen when he hits is really good for her. Hmmm I thought I had more to say. Oh well someone can add to this.
 
Um... You can block during double jump.
This isn't tekken. neutral doesn't block. We are talking offensive double jump, we got this.
 
You can still block during offensive double jump. Not of course when you hold up forward, but after you return the stick to back.


Also, you said double jump not offensive double jump. It is possible to jump and then double jump backwards, having never lost the ability to block for even one frame.
 
Then you actually never caught the double jump Dime_x, I got this don't worry about it. Tell them how painwheel is Rose or something.
 
Several. Character with the "bad" side of the matchup comes first:

Peacock vs. Band (haven't actually played this from either side, but from what I've heard from players on both sides, it's basically impossible for Peacock)


No.No. That was from around the time big band dropped. Nowadays it's just a matter of Peacock baiting out large attacks and punishing them or conditioning Big Band to do large attacks and then punishing them. Peacock can't toss things out like she does against the rest of the cast because of brass, but she can still harass BB from anywhere better than he can harass her.

Zoning in full force won't work too well against BB. Bombs are a big risk and bomb patterns are a stupid one. S.hp and shadow are enough to control the pace of the match without worrying about a big armored move caving your face in.

With s.hp she can bait out brass or giant step. If BB does brass, then teleport behind him and punish it. If he has meter, he can cancel that into SSJ. Of course, it wouldn't hurt to eat that damage early on and leave him without the ability to do it again for awhile because his meter building is so slow. You'll be on the other side of the screen and be much freer to harass him and make up the deficit pretty quickly. If he does brass without meter you can teleport and punish him hardcore. With giant step, there's a good chance that he'll recover before your teleport, so do a fake teleport or practice reacting to giant step to time it perfectly so you can punish it off of teleport. If he has meter it'll lead to the same situation that brass does (a reaction ssj that leaves bb high and dry)

Once the opposing big band is hesitant to toss out brass and giant step, he doesn't have many options other than to try and close the gap. That's when you fill the screen because he won't have a charge to punish you for it. Be wary if he's been blocking for a while, because eating a heavy brass means that BB is in and he's in control.

Medium shadow is Peacock's best friend vs Big Band. She owns the neutral while holding it and is free to approach or back off as she pleases. If Big Band does anything big, just drop it on him or approach and drop it on him.

If BB is in, block low and react high. Watch for light A Train and giant step. His mixup is reactable so it won't be too hard to make the right choice as long as you pay attention. Light bang beats any A Train mixup, it will lose to brass though so don't just mindlessly throw it out.

If you're in BB's face, stay on the ground. End all block string in George's Day Out, because that's the only time it's safe to jump at BB w/o worrying too much about dp. He can still do it before you attack, but jumping in his face and blocking will afford you the opportunity to punish it with a j.lp as you fall and convert it into a full combo. Watch out for parries (maybe 3 BB players do it effectively) and grab a lot. Jumping forward and blocking is a great way to bait out A Train from outside of poke range as it's very punishable on block.

If BB ever tries to taunt, use argus to make him regret it.
 
- What are Squigly's issues aside from Daisy Pusher being super shit and most of her gameplan requiring meter?
She's pretty garbage at building meter in neutral outside of assist calls, for one.
Stancels don't give meter. All her stance moves are pretty stupid to whiff at any point in time.

Her only real safe option is to whiff tk divekicks, which are literally the worst specials in the game in terms of whiffed meter building, though they do give nice chunks on block/hit.

So if you want meter and don't have a meterless gameplan in place, you can't really lame it out like some other characters can. You have to go in, or get hit.
 
Can someone please tell me why Eliza in her current form isnt straight up broken?

I'm not seeing how to play against her. She CANNOT be rushed down from what ive seen. Her dp is actually good and her air to air is the best in the game. I cant pushblock her with any sort of consistency... Its like pushblock doesnt work at all. I cant out prioritise her at all... Her range and hitboxes are absolutely ludicrous. I cant go ground while she goes air cause she can just dash cancel her wiffed airnormals. Her airthrow range is berserk. My invincible AA assists constantly get stuffed by her j.hp. Her level 3 does like a billion damage, she cant really be kept out, her high low game is fantastic, her low/throw game is fantastic her left/right game is fantastic her anti pushblock game is fantastic her anti zone game is fantastic her priority is probably the best in the game for air to airs...

Right now i dont see any weaknesses.

Someone please educate me on this characters flaws.
 
Well thats good to know. Right now i feel like dropping the controller against her. Shes that good. It feels like st akuma in certain aspects.

So... Going on... Guess this is off topic so i will go to the design thread.
 
She's pretty garbage at building meter in neutral outside of assist calls, for one.
Stancels don't give meter. All her stance moves are pretty stupid to whiff at any point in time.

Her only real safe option is to whiff tk divekicks, which are literally the worst specials in the game in terms of whiffed meter building, though they do give nice chunks on block/hit.

So if you want meter and don't have a meterless gameplan in place, you can't really lame it out like some other characters can. You have to go in, or get hit.
Squigly without meter can just whiff and seria cancel s.hp(x2) repeatedly to build one bar, faster than most other characters probably
 
Squigly without meter can just whiff and seria cancel s.hp(x2) repeatedly to build one bar, faster than most other characters probably
That's all well and good if you spent your first meter. But if you didn't, where exactly do you get your second bar?
 
That's all well and good if you spent your first meter. But if you didn't, where exactly do you get your second bar?
Reset well and you'll at least break even.
 
Not to mention who in their right mind is giving Squigly the space to whiff anything?
 
Not to mention who in their right mind is giving Squigly the space to whiff anything?
It's hardly unsafe since she can stop whenever anything gets close, and she can still call assist and do whatever else in the meantime. It's not much of a commitment, just like getting a charge in the fist place.
 
Reset well and you'll at least break even.
I said at neutral.

You're just saying that you have to go in to get meter, which I already said is all Squigly could do besides getting hit (though I didn't specify >= 1 meter.)
 
I said at neutral.

You're just saying that you have to go in to get meter, which I already said is all Squigly could do besides getting hit (though I didn't specify >= 1 meter.)
Well that's pretty much every character in the game

Edit: What makes point Squigly more meter starved than any other character isn't that she's bad at building meter, it's that she needs it more than anyone else, so it's easier to run out, and more crippling when you do.
One bar is all she needs, though.
 
I'm going way out on a limb here, but I'd guess that she does build meter slower than a lot of the cast... especially when you factor in a jump-in.

So I think I'll be uncontroversial first by saying that she'll never grow meter like a projectile character (Parasoul or Peacock).

She is also reliant on multihit moves which cause fast scaling which cause low meter gain. More importantly, her standard jump-in conversions are usually off j.mk/j.hp > SBO/sing > SBO. At best that is about 4 hits worth of scaling before she even gets to her combo. I'll report my meter gain later, but I'm guessing it is fairly low.

She has some conversions from divekicks which softens the blow some (unlike my sweet PW who scales virtually all of her combos with a j.mp/j.hp/j.hk).

For anyone interested, I've been trying to collect meter data from common bnbs with and without the standard jumpin.
 
Well that's pretty much every character in the game

Edit: What makes point Squigly more meter starved than any other character isn't that she's bad at building meter, it's that she needs it more than anyone else, so it's easier to run out, and more crippling when you do.
One bar is all she needs, though.
She's outclassed in neutral meter gain by Peacock, Fukua (but who isn't by these two?), Parasoul, Val, Big Band, Fortune (esp. headless), and Bella. Double as well since she at last has a projectile, though the rest of her options are garbage. The only ones that build meter in neutral as bad as her are arguably Filia and PW.
 
Here's some numbers. Obviously they will vary based on the combo you're doing. They both only use 1 meter. Also due to the way the meter bar is shaped, my numbers are definitely estimates.

Squigs: 7.2k damage. Builds: 60-65% and Gives: 85%
j.mk Jump-in: 6.5 damage. Builds: 50-60% and Gives: 100%

Painwheel: 7.3k damage. Builds 55-60% and Gives 75-80%
j.mp jump-in: 6.6k damage. Builds 50% and Gives 90%.

If my numbers are remotely standard, and given that PW is one of (if not the) worst meter gainer in the game... I'd say Squigs probably has problems building meter relative to most of the cast.
 
Here's some numbers. Obviously they will vary based on the combo you're doing. They both only use 1 meter. Also due to the way the meter bar is shaped, my numbers are definitely estimates.

Squigs: 7.2k damage. Builds: 60-65% and Gives: 85%
j.mk Jump-in: 6.5 damage. Builds: 50-60% and Gives: 100%

Painwheel: 7.3k damage. Builds 55-60% and Gives 75-80%
j.mp jump-in: 6.6k damage. Builds 50% and Gives 90%.

If my numbers are remotely standard, and given that PW is one of (if not the) worst meter gainer in the game... I'd say Squigs probably has problems building meter relative to most of the cast.
You assume anyone would want to do full-length combos with Squigly
 
You assume anyone would want to do full-length combos with Squigly

Not at all. But it is generally indicative. Having a multi-hit jump-in lowers meter gain (which Squigs has), and her "break even" point where she's getting more meter than she is giving it is fairly low due to her reliance on multihit.

So unless you are always jumping in with fallen woman or j.lk and resetting before you get to her jump chain and/or c.hp... you are generally behind.

I don't know why we are even arguing this. Luweewu was both accurate and concise.
 
Not at all. But it is generally indicative. Having a multi-hit jump-in lowers meter gain (which Squigs has), and her "break even" point where she's getting more meter than she is giving it is fairly low due to her reliance on multihit.

So unless you are always jumping in with fallen woman or j.lk and resetting before you get to her jump chain and/or c.hp... you are generally behind.

I don't know why we are even arguing this. Luweewu was both accurate and concise.
Internet arguments tend to be like that.
The initial argument (Where I started following it anyway) was that Squigly can't build meter (via safely whiffing attacks in neutral) because her best option is divekicks
But as I have proven, she is actually one of the best characters at that, taking roughly 8 seconds to build one full bar, whereas Parasoul takes about 15 seconds with HP shot spam (Non-whiffed hp-shot spam at that)

Repeated HP shot is obviously a lot more effective in what it does, but Squigly with 0 bars can easily get a small burst of metergain whenever she has some space, with very little commitment.

Edit: Whether predictably whiffing a normal with Squigly is a commitment or not depends on the matchup, obviously.
 
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I agree with zeknife. Getting meter with squigly isn't so hard and all she really needs is one. Whether to punish with center stage > SBO, daisy pusher where it is effective, or anti air an opponent with SBO. She really just needs that one bar at that one time. Then when you are below zero, whiff a bunch of c.hp (preferably with seria) til you have that one bar again.
 
I think you both are missing the point. Well that, or i am.

Painwheel makes enough meter for herself. She doesnt however make enough meter for her team... In general unless you dont spend meter. Im pretty sure thats what luweewu and spencer are saying here. I mean any character can build meter at least ok pre level 1... But who's talking about that when there's an entire other 2 characters that need to have their meter needs be satiated as well?

So yeah... Building meter is referring to after 1 bar has been built. I dont remember ever thinking that painwheel is a good meter builder cause she can build meter for wiffing stuff pre 1 bar...
 
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Speaking of meter gain can we talk about how Peacock builds meter about twice as fast as the rest of the cast? Man that character is a joy to play against.
 
I think we were responding to the edit that said Squigly isn't bad at building meter.

We are saying she is.

@Iphantom

I've nothing nice to say about that :P
 
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Have you played squigly with four bars? I have everytime I run peacock on point.
 
Might as well throw this in here, a "close enough" tier list:
http://waa.ai/4een

A: Peacock, Val, Parasoul, Filia
B+: Fukua, Fortune
B: Bella, Double
B-: Squigly
C+: Big Band, Painwheel
 
Swap Parasoul with Double, Fukua with Bella and I pretty much agree with that list, Parasoul maybe one tier up actually.
 
Parasoul is S tier lel
 
That's exactly my list if you were to swap (old) Fukua with Filia.

Not sure about changed Fukua though.