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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Broken Loose said:
For example, Updo is pretty good until you compare it to literally any other AAA in the game. It's the hardest after which to combo on point.
Uh, what?
I'm too lazy for the rest for now, so just this.
Am I completely misunderstanding this sentence? It doesn't make sense the way I read it
 
IsaVulpes said:
Uh, what?
I'm too lazy for the rest for now, so just this.
Am I completely misunderstanding this sentence? It doesn't make sense the way I read it
Updo is harder to combo after as point Filia than Fiber Upper, Napalm Pillar, Devil Horns, or even Hornet Bomber. Gregor's timing is rather finicky but the competition is "literally cannot fail."
 
Broken Loose said:
hardest after which to combo on point.

I dunno, my execution is ass, but I can get some stuff off updo pretty easy (but I have Val on point, and she can convert off assists really well in my expirenece.)

EDIT: Wait never mind, I thought you mean comboing after it as an assist with your point character.
 
Broken Loose said:
Can somebody tell me why people think Filia is good? What does she have in MDE that makes her better than the other characters?

In terms of tools;

-best instant overhead
-best or second best iad overhead (fortune's j.lk might be faster in some situations?)
-3 normals with amazing hitboxes (j.hp, j.hk, hk)
-fastest horizontal movement with wave dash?
-varied attack vectors (air hairballs open up super jump height assist calls)
-arguably the best assist in the game
-best on-hit dhc that leads to a combo even from fullscreen
-strong defensive options in the air or on the ground, meterless or with super

In terms of matchups;

-one of the best counters to peacock's zoning with her ability to approach at normal jump height horizontally or diagonally down
-very strong pressure game that destroys characters who lack reversal options like (squigly, parasoul in the air, cerebella in the air, painwheel on the ground, double in the air)
-adding to that, it's extremely difficult to pushblock her away enough between her 4 hit overhead string, hairballs, c.mk hk frametrap, and any lockdown assist she's running
-due to the speed of her air dash, she can play footsies extremely well, waiting for you to get into a disadvantageous position and dashing in with a j.mp or j.lk or j.hp depending on the situation. All of which starts up her pressure game.

She's not as obnoxious as she was in SDE since the air gregor change and hairball dash limit, but still great.
 
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Broken Loose said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sure she might have good mixups in a vacuum and Updo is good in a vacuum, but what makes her superior to other characters?

For example, Updo is pretty good until you compare it to literally any other AAA in the game. It's -60 on block, got a damage nerf recently, and is the hardest after which to combo on point.

What about those mixups? What is it about a character who can't throw midscreen without meter, can't cancel into overhead, can't do vacuum bullshit, and has the absolute worst hitboxes in the game that makes her better than other characters that have all of those things and more?

The most common statements I've heard are "she's just good!" without any data (and especially without comparing her to other characters in the game) or good players winning with her by virtue of them already being good players. That's like saying, "Kuroda wins with Q all the time. Q can't be THAT bad!"


The worst thing about filia is that she can take terrible damage trying to get in and via getting her iad attacks countered for being to predictable.


After that, she has basically everything.

2 of the top assists in the game in updo, and hairball. Hairball is unique in its ability to kill/outprioritize obvious assist calls WHILE ALSO covering the ground. Its basically a better version of hornet bomber in most aspects, not duckable, easier for many characters to confirm the hard version, allows for crazy offense since it clears other assists and at the very least gives hornet bomber users fits.

She for all intents and purposes has a divekick if you think of divekicks as hard to reactively AA jump in attacks. The difference being that her divekicks (iad attacks) have massive range and are generally plus on block.

To fight her own linearity she has lk airball spam into either forward or back airdash and can call assists during the startup of airball or while shes in her airdash after the airdash cancel.

She has one of the best on hit lvl1 dhc in the game, she has a dp, though it isnt the greatest on point except for frame traps... BUT, she has Fenrir on point which is her true dp, and it punishes everything and kills any predictable jumpins.


So basically on point:

Hard to stop offense and BY FAR the best mixups in the game especially solo or as anchor.

On team:


Great dhc options on hit, 2 of the best assists. Her great assist and dhc game synergizes perfectly with her great anchor game. Unlike other great/good anchor choices:

Painwheel now has great dhc options, a slightly below midtier assist option, and great anchor ability if she can get a bit of space.


As far as overall anchors, filia beats painwheel cause of her assists and her ability to create safe space to engineer a way in. All pw really has over filia is safe dhc. And good assists are seen more and used/needed more than safe dhc.

Just as an example.
 
Sigh
chansub-global-emoticon-c8a77ec0c49976d3-22x30.png
 
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I have nothing add to the Filia topic outside of:

Dime_x said:
Hard to stop offense and BY FAR the best mixups in the game especially solo or as anchor.

Personally I find Filia offense easy or rather just average to deal with outside of playing as Double.

As for mixups, it's strong but it's not "that" great unless backed with an assist. At that point I would argue that Squigly, Para and Val has her beat in that department.
 
The point is Filia is just a solid Character. She doesn't have the best options for every situation but she doesn't have many flaws that would make her a bad character. All of her flaws can be tweaked out with a little smart play so I don't see why you would think that Filia is not good.
 
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Age said:
In terms of tools;

-best instant overhead
-best or second best iad overhead (fortune's j.lk might be faster in some situations?)
-3 normals with amazing hitboxes (j.hp, j.hk, hk)
-fastest horizontal movement with wave dash?
-varied attack vectors (air hairballs open up super jump height assist calls)
-arguably the best assist in the game
-best on-hit dhc that leads to a combo even from fullscreen
-strong defensive options in the air or on the ground, meterless or with super

In terms of matchups;

-one of the best counters to peacock's zoning with her ability to approach at normal jump height horizontally or diagonally down
-very strong pressure game that destroys characters who lack reversal options like (squigly, parasoul in the air, cerebella in the air, painwheel on the ground, double in the air)
-adding to that, it's extremely difficult to pushblock her away enough between her 4 hit overhead string, hairballs, c.mk hk frametrap, and any lockdown assist she's running
-due to the speed of her air dash, she can play footsies extremely well, waiting for you to get into a disadvantageous position and dashing in with a j.mp or j.lk or j.hp depending on the situation. All of which starts up her pressure game.

She's not as obnoxious as she was in SDE since the air gregor change and hairball dash limit, but still great.
I think you're very confused on a lot of these.

  1. The best instant overhead is Parasoul b+LP. Or Painwheel flycancel anything. Or Fortune grounded Axe Kick. You see, it's a lot harder to react to an overhead when the opponent doesn't have to jump.
  2. I'd love to know which iad overhead of hers you think is great.
  3. holy shit are you trolling? Have you SEEN j.HP's hitbox? Are you sure you aren't referring to Fortune's j.HP, Valentine's j.HP, Double's j.HP, or Parasoul's j.HP? Filia's j.HP is a red spot on top of a gigantic green blob that loses to jabs. The vulnerable portion extends further horizontally than the actual damaging portion. And j.HK requires you to be literally on top of the other player to connect; with certain character idle stances you can't even hit with it unless your landing would physically dislodge them. Everything you just described is fucking terrible in comparison to nearly every other character except Squigly.
  4. Okay, she can wavedash as fast as Valentine can run. I'll give you that.
  5. LK airball does get you a single hit at a time if you want your assist to take a ton of damage or be totally unable to convert off of it.
  6. Filia has Napalm Pillar/Hornet Bomber? Are you aware that Updo is the worst of the 3 dragon punch assists?
  7. Filia has Hatred Install? Also, Gregor doesn't work in the corner.
  8. What are these meterless aerial defensive options?

This really sounds like you don't actually know what she can do. Did you know that you can jab her out of almost all her pressure options since she lacks disjointed hitboxes? Do you realize that all your compliments to her pressure apply to other characters except moreso? These are a lot of vacuum statements that don't take into account any other characters in the game.


edit: Do you see this? You realize that the green portion refers to the part that sucks and the red part is the part that hits, right?

xKd6xUS.jpg
 
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winnie said:
The point is Filia is just a solid Character. She doesn't have the best options for every situation but she doesn't have many flaws that would make her a bad character. All of her flaws can be tweaked out with a little smart play so I don't see why you would think that Filia is not good.
Okay, what do you think qualifies as a bad character? What are the standards here? How shitty would she have to be for her to be bad?

bsobotka said:
All of them. Every fucking move she has in the air.
Ah, so you don't know what you're talking about. Cool. Either that or you're playing Filia Fighter where Cerebella, Peacock, Parasoul, Fortune, Painwheel, and Double don't exist.


I keep hearing left and right from people that Filia's supposed to be this god tier menace that needs nerfing or she'll rock the cosmos, but so far all I've gotten back is, "If you're already good at the game then you can win with her I guess" and "I don't actually know what a disjointed hitbox is."
 
no one in the last few pages said god tier. you are putting words in people's mouths. they just said "good" or "solid".

Most lists i have seen here put her after val and filia at least.

you asked "why do people think she is good?!"

people responded why they think she's good.

now you are like "SHE ISN'T GOD TIER IDIOTS"


c'mon guy
 
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Broken Loose said:
I think you're very confused on a lot of these.

  1. The best instant overhead is Parasoul b+LP. Or Painwheel flycancel anything. Or Fortune grounded Axe Kick. You see, it's a lot harder to react to an overhead when the opponent doesn't have to jump.
  2. I'd love to know which iad overhead of hers you think is great.
  3. holy shit are you trolling? Have you SEEN j.HP's hitbox? Are you sure you aren't referring to Fortune's j.HP, Valentine's j.HP, Double's j.HP, or Parasoul's j.HP? Filia's j.HP is a red spot on top of a gigantic green blob that loses to jabs. The vulnerable portion extends further horizontally than the actual damaging portion. And j.HK requires you to be literally on top of the other player to connect; with certain character idle stances you can't even hit with it unless your landing would physically dislodge them. Everything you just described is fucking terrible in comparison to nearly every other character except Squigly.
  4. Okay, she can wavedash as fast as Valentine can run. I'll give you that.
  5. LK airball does get you a single hit at a time if you want your assist to take a ton of damage or be totally unable to convert off of it.
  6. Filia has Napalm Pillar/Hornet Bomber? Are you aware that Updo is the worst of the 3 dragon punch assists?
  7. Filia has Hatred Install? Also, Gregor doesn't work in the corner.
  8. What are these meterless aerial defensive options?

This really sounds like you don't actually know what she can do. Did you know that you can jab her out of almost all her pressure options since she lacks disjointed hitboxes? Do you realize that all your compliments to her pressure apply to other characters except moreso? These are a lot of vacuum statements that don't take into account any other characters in the game.

1. Painwheel's fly cancel is the only instant overhead on that list
2. iad mp is fucking fast, iad j.hp can be stuffed, but it still takes some quick reactions, much quicker than anything you said in 1 and it combos into j.hk for years of free pressure.
3. j. hp isn't as great as it's made out to be, but when I'm under pressure, none of those scare me half as much as a Fillia j.hp. From neutral, all of those but Ms. Fortune is a bigger concern
4. k
5. no contest
6. Nah. You can confirm for days. The only way you can't combo off of it is if you're back dashing when it hits, the same as any other hard knock down anti air assist. Plus it goes higher than the alternatives.
7. Whenever anybody talks about good DHC options, I'm sure they're talking about comboing off of them, not using them to get out of trouble. That said, Gregor is still a great deterrent to preemptively punishing bad supers. Defensively her supers are ass. Offensively, they're amazing. So really, it comes down to playing smart.
8. I'm not the one to address that.


Is Fillia the best in game? No. But she's damn good and as an opponent she will be a thorn in your side even if you know what she can do. Unless you're playing Cerebella, Valentine, or Ms. Fortune, she's kind of a big deal unless your opponent sucks with her.

edit: Only newblets think she's broke.
 
Broken Loose said:
...


I understand your complaint about j.hp, but I think you're the one looking in a vacuum. It is fast as fuck making the jab almost the only thing that easily counters it (outside of specials and supers). Not to mention that pushblock is half useless against her, which means the pressure that one move provides is pretty top notch.

The hitbox, I find to be less of a good argument. Filias who play long enough learn to cover it. Is it a weakness? Sure, but it is far from the weaknesses that PW (another air reliant character) faces with her air priority.

I think the problem with Filia is she is good at everything with only minor weaknesses. I think this is evidenced by her popularity at every level (it's not like she drops off at the top tier). You can sure pick Parasoul for pillar (and many do), but you are choosing to pick weaknesses too that need to be protected.

Also, I would argue to the death that Updo is the worst of the three. It is different, for sure. But, the worst? No. Pillar gives me far, far less problem. Maybe it is the hitbox thing? Maybe it is how long Filia fucking lingers so she can eat my jump in leading to a brutal reverse? Who knows, but out of the three, we are arguing shades of gray. Agree to disagree that they are all fucking awesome and make up almost 100% of teams in this game?
 
@Broken Loose

Settle down dude, you're being pretty unpleasant. I'll try to answer those points but if you stick with that attitude I'll just start ignoring you.

1. Best instant overhead: As far as I know an instant overhead is different from a standing overhead. A notable advantage to Filia's over Parasoul's f+lp is that it's not vulnerable to jabs or throws, it also leads to safe pressure if it's blocked since you can air dash cancel it. I've never been able to react to an instant j.hk, but if you're able to kudos to you.

2. I rate iad j.hp, j.lk and j.lp about the same depending on the range you're doing it from. They all lead to safe pressure or airball mixup on block and are difficult (not impossible) to react to.

3. I see the hitboxes, and if you'll take another look you'll see that there's very little space where j.hp's red overlaps with its green. The area is not as large as parasoul's j.hp or the other normals you list but it's probably the best normal in the game at what it does which is air to air from equal or slightly lower height. I list j.HK's hitbox mainly for its ability to avoid hits more than its ability to hit others, but it's not as difficult to hit with it as you suggest.

5. That's certainly what would happen if you use it badly... I tend to use a projectile assist such as napalm shot from lk airball height and then use the blockstun to come down with a left/right mixup protected by the grenade. My point was that she has the option to come from right on top of you, diagonally down at you, horizontally at normal jump height, or along the ground at a low profile all backed by assists.

6. I'm curious why you rate napalm pillar specifically higher than updo, but I did say it was arguable. Regardless of whether it's top 1 or top 5, it makes her a highly valued part of the team at any position.

7. Hatred install might lead to more damage post-dhc (I haven't checked) but it doesn't let you follow up from a full screen argus like gregor does. It's true that Gregor doesn't lead to a combo if you're cornered, I hadn't run into that situation myself.

8. Without meter she has decent normals for hitting below her (j.hk, j.mp, j.mk), she can dash away, or use air hairballs to escape as well. I'm not saying these beat all resets, I'm saying they give her better defensive options in the air while meterless than characters like parasoul and cerebella.
 
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Filia's j.hp is not good because its big its good because its fast, has good hit/block stun, and stops them from jumping back better than her other air normals. The amount of pressure you get form this move is why its good not the size. All I'm trying to say is I think Filia is balanced, she does not need any changes to her game, none of her match ups are unplayable, and she is just fun to play. I can't see anything wrong with a character like Filia.

Simply put if she was bad everyone would know it.

Edit: if you want to discus what the best dp assist is there is none. All of them have different uses.

Updo has a crapy hitbox low to the ground but is a better anti-air than Napalm Pillar.
Fiber upper is the best anti-air of the three but is harder to combo after.
Napalm Pillar has the best hit box low to the ground but has trouble hitting people at super jump hight or higher.
 
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I personally think her damage output is a bit ridiculous considering the amount of reset potential she has after landing a hit. That's just me though.
 
Play Duckator, Sev, Winnie, or any other good Filia player if you're still not convinced she's an amazing character :^P
 
I wish her damage output was higher because I want to TOD but then undizzy kicks in and I cry :c

RIP SDE
 
Yeah RIP

Play bella she can TOD I promise #BellaNation
 
I tried but Squigly is more fun so I'll settle for drag n bite over Cerecoptter even though coptter is better.
 
Filia is godlike!!!!
....

Too bad im dropping her for squigly ;-;
 
Ah, the Internet. Where every fool can run his mouth to his heart's content. If you don't understand why Filia is top three easily, then you're not at the level where you need to worry about tier lists.
 
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Having just found a way to carry into SnapBack from near corner to corner for painwheel with hk Hornet bomber assist... I think that double might go up a bit in the ranks since there are probably others that can do the same and all that is need for painwheel is an assist available and 1 meter.

So basically dont get happy birthday by painwheel double team anywhere with the exception of if the assist was the starter... At which point you are fine. I put the combo in the painwheel combo thread.
 
View619 said:
Ah, the Internet. Where every fool can run his mouth to his heart's content. If you don't understand why Filia is top three easily, then you're not at the level where you need to worry about tier lists.
Weren't you the guy suggesting TvC burst be in this game?
 
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Broken Loose said:
Weren't you the guy suggesting TvC burst be in this game?

Nope, I was suggesting a high cost (i.e. 3) meter burst of some sort, not specifically TvC burst; that means not a burst you can combo off of or w/e unique properties TvC burst has. I'm fine with it being a bad idea, it's a suggestion and I don't lash out at people when they call me out on my mistakes.

Then again, you don't really read before you start typing, so I'm not surprised. Weren't you the guy calling bursts a get out of jail free card for bad players, then referring to GG/BB? And on topic, you're the guy who can't understand why people think Filia is so great, right? Yet when people give answers, you tell them they don't know what they're talking about?

Leaving it at this though, I don't have any more time for you.
 
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Broken Loose said:
Updo is harder to combo after as point Filia than Fiber Upper, Napalm Pillar, Devil Horns, or even Hornet Bomber. Gregor's timing is rather finicky but the competition is "literally cannot fail."
???? After 99% of Pillars, I literally CANNOT combo after. xx Bikes, 300 damage for a bar does not count as 'comboing after'. Combos after Updo are so fucking easy that you are generally allowed to horrendously mistime the Gregor, just flat whiff under the opponent and then combo anyways using the OTG.
Fiber Upper now needs to be delayed and can't just be shot out at every opportunity to be able to combo after it. Hitting Devil Horns at all is harder than Filia's combos are.
ASIDE from that, even if you were to create some magic point where it is 'the hardest', it's completely meaningless. It is easy enough for you to be able to hit it in 100% of cases unless you're a rotten tomato, which means this is not a point at all. "It's the hardest to combo after" is a valid point to make when you're saying 'There are a lot of cases where you can't combo after it due to X', not when you're saying 'On a scale of 1 to Difficult, Updo xx Gregor is a 1.2 and other char's DPs are a 1.1".

Filia has Napalm Pillar/Hornet Bomber? Are you aware that Updo is the worst of the 3 dragon punch assists?
Bomber is not a DP assist. The "3 DP assists" are Pillar/Upper/Updo, and I have no fricking clue why you'd think that either of the former is better than Updo.
 
Filia has
- The fastest overhead in the game (..which on block leads to further unreactable mixups..)
- A god tier assist and two really fucking good ones
- Fullscreen DHC that leads to full combos
- Closerange DHC with the 2nd highest DMG output for raw Supers (after Pea's Argus)
- Some of the best resets in the game, both in the air and on the ground
- God Tier defensive options in a fully invinc DP that leads to full combos, an Air Super with a ground variant (easy mashing) that leads to full combos, and general air mobility (airball, airdash)
- Some of the best normals in the game frame data wise with a c.LP that's +8 on block, 10f startup on j.HP, 5f startup on s.LP, tbc
- Toptier pressure options with an unpushblockable c.MK, always safe blockstrings, 50/50s after blocked IADs
- Toptier mobility with Wavedash, Airdash, Airball, Sweep
- Godtier corner damage
- Not a single matchup which I would call 4-6 (if there are any, she runs sufficient amounts of Damage + Defense + Offense + Derp to be confident in winning them either way)
- Due to stuff mentioned above, Godtier comeback factor (sitting next to Fortune as the only chars that are a real threat to reverse OCV with)

Filia lacks
- Nonlinear patterns to start her offense with (IAD being her go-to attack in pretty much each and every case, at all distances)
- Disjointed hitboxes to play Footsies with (making her prone to eat damage trying to get in)
- Safe DHC

I'm not sure how you think she's worse than Top3 when she is at least Top3 in almost every single aspect of the game?
Her faults in the hitboxes are offset by the fact that her normals are plain faster than the opponents, so if you press your buttons at the same time you're going to win anyways.

Jabbing j.Fierce is rather theory fighter, yeah it's possible, but what then?
Stand Jabs are useless because at the range where they beat the Fierce, they lead to no damage, and everywhere else trades in favour of Filia IF you're lucky and not get flat beaten (=death).
Crouch Jabs work but would not work against IAD anythingelse, and Filia converts her jumpnormal into more damage than you do your c.LP
 
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Yeah, the jab counter to iad is almost all theory fighter. It can be done, and in the best situations can be converted into big damage.... But in general its just going to get a person raped in the butthole. Because jabs cant be continuously rapid fired like they can in streetfighter against, oh say, blanka ball.


If only it were that easy. The truth is that filia doing an iad generally forces a total commitment to counter it. The only ways to do non committal defenses that i know of is to call a gtfo assist or to jump away from her and create space. Other than that its just generally filia running a train on people if she gets within iad range.

Shes got probably the hardest attack vector to flatout counter. The only things better that i know of are val neutral game and double with cats active, maybe fortune with head off. After that its filia easily and that's not bad at all. Seeing as to how fortune gets her head hurt, double requires 2 meters, val requires a dp assist... Filia gets near those levels of cheese without an assist or a meter.... All she needs is to get close to you and its blender time


And that's not even talking about updo which currently OWNS the metagame.
 
Jabs can be raped fired by everyone in the game and hit confirming into damage is really easy but people don't jab IAD Filia because its bad they don't do it because they are scared. If someone started to jab me out of my IADs then I would just stop using them to get in and only use them when its safe. Filia has plenty of ways to get in without IAD so if they start to punish you then you just have to adjust your game a little.

Other ways to get in without IAD:
1. Dash up c.mk to catch them off guard
2. forward jump hp air dash into anything you want for pressure
3. dash up s.mp can hit them from far range and help cover your assist
4. dash around them until you see a good opportunity for an assist call and use your assist to cover your approach
5. call a projectile assist and use it to go in
6. dash up throw because they think only val does that
7. jump lk hairball and call assist then be tricky with your decent to catch them pressing the wrong button
8. hit confirm a ringlet spike into a Gregor or a full combo(this is a bit risky though because ringlet spike is ass)

Not all of these options will be available to everyone because many of them rely on the right assist but they are still good substitutes for IAD pressure.


The more I play MDE the more I think Filia's new hp updo is actually the worst uppercut. The invincibility on Hp updo is only there for the first few hits, It has plenty of invincibility for a reversal but kinda sucks as and anti-air on point. As and assist nothings really changed but I have been put in situations where my raw updo was beat out of the air by Parasoul's j.Hp. Updo is still good but not nearly as good as its used to be especially with the change to Air Gregor making it unsafe. Though updo is the worst of the three uppercuts im still going to use it because its still an important tool for Filia.
 
I asked it before, and I got blown off: How is iad anything faster than Parasoul f+LP?

You might be shocked to find out that jump startup + minimum airdash height + airdash startup is greater than 13 frames.
 
It's called instant air dash for a reason.
 
Difference is parasoul has to already be next to you to go for that overhead.

Filia does it from wherever she waaaants, and I've tried to beat it on reaction and got BODY BAGGED FOR IT. aka got hit took 3k got reset took 10k died. Not worth the risk of trying to beat it on reaction imo
 
Broken Loose said:
I asked it before, and I got blown off: How is iad anything faster than Parasoul f+LP?

You might be shocked to find out that jump startup + minimum airdash height + airdash startup is greater than 13 frames.
Jump startup = 4f
Minimum Airdash height = 5f
Airdash startup = 0f
j.LK = 7f
16f total. There is no startup on dashes, I dunno what you're on.

Parasoul's 6LP has 20f startup

If you don't believe me, how about you test this yourself?

Training mode, select opponent team Filia/Parasoul.
Put Filia in front of your char, put her on record, walk back a step walk forward a step, IAD j.LK.
- Try to block this.
Put Parasoul in front of your char, put her on record, walk back a step walk forward a step, 6LP
- Block this.

Parasoul's overhead is miles and ages easier to block.
 
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