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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

@Tomo009

Listening to your reasoning, your list makes more sense.

The way I was reading it is your x-axis was exclusively how they functioned as an assist, and your y-axis was how they performed at point (including assist). So in yours BB is high on the y-axis because of his over-all utility. On mine, he's low because he functions worse at point than a lot of others.
 
Adeveis said:
@Dreamepitaph
Squigly relies a lot on a charge and meter and without either she really suffers a lot against airdashers. She folds hella hard to pressure (val can freely loop j.mp pressure if she ever gets squigly in the corner without a charge) and only has s.lp( it's a little disjointed) and j.lk for those trying to airdash at her. J.lk specifically is her safest option since it beats just about everything in the air and is very safe if it whiffs, but if you ever get put in blockstun, your best option is to block until you get a bar but even then val, filia, eliza, and fortune are pretty hard to get off you once they start their pressure.

If you have a bar at neutral, in most matchups it's a free charge. With that task done you pretty much don't have to worry too much about the rest of the cast especially if you have fast reactions allowing you to punish things with the center stage + sbo/daisy pusher. Pretty much only really Fukua peacock and Bigband are the only characters that don't have to respect it. Against the airdashers, even if they apply pressure you have a reliable way out, your stancel becomes very safe making it ok to whiff, and their movement becomes very limited for fear of center stage.

Against non airdash characters she doesn't have as hard a time even without a charge. It's pretty easy to get out of most pressure with a pushblock. Your pokes (s.lp, j.lk, j.hp, c.mk) are also a lot more useful. at worst these matchups are like 6:4

I don't really agree with squigly being so low on a tier list. Imo squigly is better than filia and double. However she gets punished a lot harder than they do if an airdasher get in on her without a charge or meter. This is pretty much in 1v1 scenarios btw
I disagree.

Granted its been some time since I've played, but whenever I lost to a Val as Squigs, it was not because of Squigs innate inability to handle her and air dashers like her.

Jump back J.LK the god, standing HK the boy, low profile CR.LK holding me down, jump back J.MP>Hp doing me solid, etc. etc.
 
got bored so decided to make my own tier list


:http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/skullgirls/index_customize.html?tc=ya0-trfca9nz6mex52iqakcpa5aa887o2snycadxbmo296h55kew7rin70le9u-bkg-tiDimes tier list-ct999999-c1000000-c2000000-tvFF7101-thDD3C3C-d1Top Tier-x110-d2Low tier-x210-d3selfish-x310-d4team player-x47

explanation:

overall:


1.val
2.peacock
3.eliza
4.bella
5.fukua
6.Beowulf
7.pw
8.BB
9.robo
10.MF
11.filia
12.para
13.squiggly
14.double

1-7 roughly equals high tier
8-14 roughly equals midtier

I don't think there is a low tier in sg, every character is powerful.

best all around characters according to this list are eliza bella and fukua, all have good team options and also have good point options.



val:

speediest character in the cast and can also jump the highest in the cast. an assist dispenser that has good mixups, decent normals, air fireballs, high damage and great corner carry. vals only suspect tools are her metered reversals and weakish assists and mediocre dhcs.

peacock:

great meter gain, decent normals and specials, ITEM DROP RELEASE, very high damage with optimization, safe on block dhc, decent assists.

eliza:

has more tools than even bella seemingly, a command grab, infinite armor, good damage, a plethora of good to decent assists to choose from, strong on hit dhcs, strong specials, some of the best air normals in the game.

bella:

team player extroadinaire. has good meter dump albeit situational, great meter gain, safe on block dhc for 3 meters, 2 of the best overall level 1 supers in the game, great defensive tag. top 4 overall air normals in the game along with BB eliza and parasoul.
2 of the best assists in the game, very easy yet powerful mixups, easy answersa to projectile abuse, mobility is better than bad though its still her most suspect trait.

/mike z's character/

fukua:

vortex of the gods, decent neutral, GREAT assist perhaps best lockdown assist in the game, higher damage, "safe" on block dhc, low/throw mixups are command grab based.

Beowulf:

jhp xx blitzer is derp yet powerful and multuifaceted neutral with ambiguous movement, and he does good damage, has a good assist in chair.

painwheel:

good damage from optimal starters, can avoid most fights if she wants to, great confirms, great air to air jmp attack if she gets space to get it out, great resets, shes slow moving from one direction to another and has suspect ground reversals. good use of armor can make her go up on this list though because it covers one of her major weaknesses.

BB:

has BE L, ridiculous damage from meter dumps, JLK, cymbal crash, makes you wary even from full screen with his ranged mixups, in the future his AC from BE L will strike fear in the hearts of all opponents once his team gets 2 meters, great reversals.

robo:

h beam assist makes it scary to land anywhere on screen and makes it easy for a defensive player to pressure the opponent as they land, has a safe on block dhc, very damaging dhcs via her level 3 and 5 beams. beam super comes out 0 frame as a dhc and hits the full length of the screen. has the best overall range in the game and can pressure any character from basically anywhere on screen, no real reversals, she is basically an offensive dhalsim with better walk speed.

MF:

lots of movement options, head can be very good when learned, seems slightly underwhelming right now... but still has her great mobility to keep her very solid.

filia:

updo assist range nerf hurt her a lot imho, not quite so derpy now that iad jhk isn't an overhead anymore, still a very good character, but with her assist getting nerfed and her not having a safe on block dhc her team abilities were hurt and thus why she is lower now in my book. still a frightening character under the right circumstances... circumstances that aren't all that hard to setup.

parasoul:

pillar is a good dp assist. motorcade can sometimes be a safe on block dhc for one meter, level 3 is always a safe on block dhc, GREAT airnormals, one of the best fireball games in the game, can go higher with better use of her mobility options and her tear toss mechanic... but not to many people are putting it together exceptionally well yet.

squigly:

great with charge, probably placed to far into the selfish side of this tierlist, her biggest detractor is she takes a lot of getting usd to and is generally slow. this is very good because besides being somewhat slow, her other weakness is made up for through skill and getting used to using her. can definitely go up.

double:

great team player, has had her assists weakened, somewhat on the slow side unless you use her unorthodox movement options. certainly not a low tier character... just her BS isn't as easily accessible as some of the other characters, much like squigly.
 
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Hopefully going here won't end up being a bad thing but,

Who do you think has an easier time fighting Val? Robo, PW, or Fortune?

I don't like fighting val with pw or fortune personally but maybe I'll learn a thing or two by just asking here.
 
I personally think Robo has it easiest of those 3. I also don't play PW so I can't give you a full assessment. But Robo seems to have the easiest gameplan to implement against Val. She can shut down Val's zoning and control the mid range neutral pretty well. As far as an inside game goes, they kind of maul each other on paper so that comes down to the patience of each player.

Fortune's problem is she doesn't have a nearly strong enough air game so she has to space out Val perfectly and not make any mistakes. Val can just no-sale the ground game and change her trajectory in the air at will. She can walk a zoning Val into the corner if patient enough with the right spacing, but she has to be ready for Val to switch to rush down in a split second and fiber isn't likely to work too well without a good read instead of a reaction like in most match ups.
 
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Dolfinh said:
It's October 2015 and people still think Squigly sucks ):
People think Johnny sucks, she has to keep up appearances.
 
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Well somebody has to be on the bottom and I'm willing to admit its probably Squigly.

But its not as if any character in this game is actually all that bad.
 
Jason said:
Well somebody has to be on the bottom and I'm willing to admit its probably Squigly.

But its not as if any character in this game is actually all that bad.
For sure. IMO the tiers in this game are "God tier" "Awesome tier" and "Great tier."
 
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Jason said:
Well somebody has to be on the bottom and I'm willing to admit its probably Squigly.

But its not as if any character in this game is actually all that bad.
I still thing it's new Filia over Squigs, unless Filia has been changed again, but I don't think so.

Assist wise Squigs is more variable, I'd rather have Squigs on any part of my team than Filia, I believe her mixup game is also more potent.
 
I'm pretty sure the people who think Squigly is the worst in TYOOL 2015 are also the same people who think Filia's the best.
 
iLoli said:
I still thing it's new Filia over Squigs, unless Filia has been changed again, but I don't think so.

Assist wise Squigs is more variable, I'd rather have Squigs on any part of my team than Filia, I believe her mixup game is also more potent.
Mmmmmmm I still think Filia's scarier once she gets in. She's also a much tougher one to pushblock!

I do think Filia is potentially bottom 5 but I'm hesitant to call her the worst.

I personally think Beowulf is weak but my beowulf experience is also pretty low.
 
Stuff said:
Hopefully going here won't end up being a bad thing but,

Who do you think has an easier time fighting Val? Robo, PW, or Fortune?

I don't like fighting val with pw or fortune personally but maybe I'll learn a thing or two by just asking here.


For me it would be fortune. I play the Pw versus val matchup a lot and personally feel like it's a struggle. Val is just to fast for Pw to keep up with. I don't think the matchup is anywhere near unwinnable, it's just tough, feels like slightly more than 6-4 val to me. Taluda disagrees though, he says Pw wins it.

I don't think that any character with assists beats val with assists. I feel like fortune can come close though simply because fortune has most of the same movement options as val has. I feel like val still has the better normals though and has the better zoning move (air shurikens) but the fact that fortune can run, quickly, gives fortune some decent counter play to vals zoning, while fortunes double jump and dash give her the ability to neutral in a not totally predictable fashion.

I don't think val is broken, I just feel like she's the top character in the game, mainly because her damage to speed to good normals ratio seems to be a bit off imo (I feel like she does a bit to much damage and corner carries a bit to easily for the speed that she has But that's just me)

Robo plays against val decently, but one missed air laser and val is in and robos defense is pretty bad.


@Dolfinh

I've got squigly second to last on my list, but that in no way means I think she's bad. If I had to put a number on it, I'd give val a 100 and squigly an 87.

But I mean, what characters would you put above squigly? I've got her above double and double as anyone knows is far far from a weak character.
 
Tier lists are so goddamned weird in this game. Like, on point I think Squigly is above Band but I think Band has better assist options.
 
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That's why one tier list doesn't do the game (and all assist based games) any justice. You really do need several tier lists discussing the characters' effectiveness as point, assists, anchors etc
 
For tier lists can't we just assume that the character placing is base on the character on point with optimal/usable assists?
 
No, because then you get crazy things like BB being bottom tier when his utility is one of the best.
 
Good luck ranking 2380 team combinations (without even assist changes or team order changes).
 
How would that possibly make it less convoluted? With the amount of team combinations, let alone assists, that's not any better.
 
'cause everyone will use 5LP assist or a bunch of other assists that don't add much.

Sarcasm aside there are popular team configurations, you can start with that I suppose I mean we don't need to rank every team I doubt anyone is going to rush in and tell you the validity of val/pw/peacock or other teams that just don't seem to be able to work well. We can certainly narrow down team possibilities. I mean I don't think there's a tier list for every team possible in other team games, at least I'd hope not.

But that's just an idea.
 
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Tier however you want. It's rather difficult to get people to agree on "what" to tier.

Me personally I tier by by a points system:

1. On point ability
2. Strength of assists
3. Strength of normals and movement
4. Strength of Dhc game.
 
Dime said:
I've got squigly second to last on my list, but that in no way means I think she's bad. If I had to put a number on it, I'd give val a 100 and squigly an 87.

But I mean, what characters would you put above squigly? I've got her above double and double as anyone knows is far far from a weak character.

I like Squigly over Beowulf and Filia. Maybe double as well, I know sage & the furry gods are putting double in their top 5's but I'm not completely sold on her being there just yet.

I'd put Squigly slightly above beowulf and filia and probably put her as equal with para.


THAT SAID:

Please consider how assists change characters viability in neutral and in their setplay. It's a dumb move to ignore this because they make up such a huge portion of the game. Filia may have a hard time getting in, sure, but with the right assists behind her? She's nuts.

Also Big Band point with optimal assists is not bad AT ALL. You have never played Fenster or Severine if you're saying that :p
 
Double is really strong now I feel. As long as you don't put her anchor/understand her weaknesses as an anchor. Top 5-7 for sure.

Big Band is definitely lower on the list regardless of how good his assists (beat extend) are.

Glad people are realizing Filia is not good xP
 
Dolfinh said:
Also Big Band point with optimal assists is not bad AT ALL. You have never played Fenster or Severine if you're saying that :p

I dont think ive ever said anything of the sort if thats directed towards me :)

The rest of what you said is interesting. I didnt know that the furrie trio had double so high now. I can see it, but i could see it for nearly any character with the right tech.


The only thing im completely sold on as far as tiers are concerned, is that val is top (which many disagree with but meh)
 
I think he means me, even though I never said he was bad on point with optimal assists, just that tiering in such a way is leading to people having BB bottom or low on tier lists, which I find absurd.
 
keninblack said:
Glad people are realizing Filia is not good xP

;_;

but seriously I dont think its necessary at all to say "rate teams not characters", personally when I rank a tier list I just take into account all possible roles a character can have and try to judge the character based on their optimal use case, if (for example) there was a character universally agreed as best point but was subpar as anchor, and another character who was universally agreed as best anchor but was a poor choice for point those two would be weighted equally IMO. Viability =/= viability solo/on point (not that anyone was saying this)
 
Pickles said:
;_;

but seriously I dont think its necessary at all to say "rate teams not characters", personally when I rank a tier list I just take into account all possible roles a character can have and try to judge the character based on their optimal use case, if (for example) there was a character universally agreed as best point but was subpar as anchor, and another character who was universally agreed as best anchor but was a poor choice for point those two would be weighted equally IMO. Viability =/= viability solo/on point (not that anyone was saying this)
I don't think those are equal at all. Characters that are good anchor and bad point can still function properly to a degree if snapped in. They lose meter but little else. Characters that are good on point lose a great deal by being snapped out, their primary defense being that they should be harder to snap out than the former group.
 
I can't think of a good anchor bad point character. BB would come closest, and his point abilities are nothing to scoff at. Double and bella are great point characters as are fukua and Eliza.

Snapping in anchors seems best to get rid of an assist, or to deny the anchor (meter dump) combos.
 
Dolfinh said:
BB first is actually really scary with the right team. I had NO idea how good it was until Fenster ran a train through me with his big band / eliza / parasoul team.


What assists was he using? One of the harder parts of BB play is coming up with good assists for him to use well since he doesnt seem to play nicely with dp assists.
 
Dime said:
What assists was he using? One of the harder parts of BB play is coming up with good assists for him to use well since he doesnt seem to play nicely with dp assists.

i actually dont know his BB assist because when I play vs him BB usually either dies or wins him the game but eliza assist is spiral and parasoul assist is L shot. Spiral gives him really easy confirms and conversions as well as of course being a good lockdown assist, and L shot is just annoying to deal with (I'm sure there's more reasons that I dont know because I don't play the team though)
 
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L Shot also makes attempting for M A Train a heck of a lot safer, which means you have to have either your air spacing a lot better or you stay on the ground, where BB does a lot better than quite a few characters.

Snapping also helps destroy team order strategies depending on how people make their order, eg if someone has a safe DHC as a second, you can snap in the second character in, and depending on how the team is set up, the effectiveness can increase quite a bit.
Though people right now don't seem to care about that stuff so top kek.
 
I gave up

Fukua, eliza, peacock, bella, fortune, val- 10/10
Everyone else minus filia and squigly- 9.9/10
Filia and squigly- Y
 
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Yomabuddy said:
Good luck ranking 2380 team combinations (without even assist changes or team order changes).
They seemed to find the important ones in marvel. And if that conversation is too hard instead of repeating ourselves, it's not like we can't rank point on one list, assist on another, anchor on one more and then average it. Maybe even make one for solos.
 
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It's been a while, but if i remember right the tiers were: super good, good, playable, not playable, roll
 
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Think a god tier goes at the front of that list.
 
Dhoppler said:
They seemed to find the important ones in marvel. And if that conversation is too hard instead of repeating ourselves, it's not like we can't rank point on one list, assist on another, anchor on one more and then average it. Maybe even make one for solos.


Idk if that thinkng applies to sg. Most characters in sg are good at multiple roles, increasing the viability of not only many different teams, but also teamorders.


As an example a team of BB/fukua/bella can be played in any order with at least 2 viable assist choices per character.

Tiering this game for teams seems like it will much harder than marvel until at least one team becomes dominant. And no team is dominant right now. The players are what is dominating the game right now.
 
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