The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[ahemtoday]

You could give umbrella the ice cream intro as a taunt during starving to recover hunger. Even at around 80f she should be able to set it up vs zoners with retina covering her.

Honestly, something that occurs to me is: that particular intro's behavior with the hunger meter doesn't make a lot of sense anymore now that it's... the only time Umbrella's hunger meter will ever go up just one pip.

...would I go as far as to recommend cutting that intro in favor of this hypothetical taunt, though...? I'm not sure.

 

[VoltTurtle]

That's my bad, I wanted it on 3MP to specifically avoid conflicting with SnS when it ends with 6MP. If I put it on 4MP, charging SnS as soon as you hit 5MP from neutral is going to cause misinputs if you can't same frame 7+MP. If I put it on 6MP, it's impossible to perform it after blocking because you'll get SNS instead. 3MP is the only input that works here (after I fix SnS coming out with 3MP) that doesn't conflict, so I was just trying to err in player favor as much as possible.

Let me make the change to SNS not coming out when you end in 3MP and let's see how that goes. I'll need very fast feedback if we decide to change it again after that.

Thank you for the fast response! I didn't realize the window for the 5MP charge was so tight, that makes sense as to why you agreed with Nope. Fixing the SnS misinputs with 3MP would help a lot! It'll still be kinda weird, but at least I'd actually be able to use it (skill issues notwithstanding). Will post back here when I've got the chance to play around with it!

This is gonna be a super controversial take, but if the point of changes are to illicit interaction with all of Umbys stages, then I think this partial reversion would be contrary.

Umbrella is a resource management character. I think managing her resource properly should be important. With that, I don’t think her being able to save poor play by popping ptooie (as in the past), is what meter management looks like. I think adding an escape mechanism to starving just inherently removes risk. Especially when we’ve seen this before, people will call assist or spend a bar to essentially mitigate bad play. If this is to be a thing, I think it is something that should be considered PRIOR to falling into starving and should be a conscious decision.

I also don’t think this even addresses the large issues. Umbrella wants to be able to go up and down her hunger states. She wants to go up for damage and down for aggression. All of umbys management tools to increase her gauge are tied to hitting the opponent, decreasing is only possible by idling or taunting. I think the limited freedom in engaging with her own mechanic is a massive flaw. On the other hand, opponents want her to go down in gauge because of starving. Opponents can zone, hit, force long blockstrings, basically everything an opponent would do besides actively trolling interacts with the hungerm bar in the way they want. I think addressing the situations where umby wants to influence her hunger gauge, but can’t is more in tune with her rework than just rewarding what should be a mistake.

I mentioned in the other post how I think limiting the opponents interaction with the gauge would work. But even something like normals on block extending rav, adding someway to raise hunger from rav to satiated that isn’t conditional to a combo, or anything else that addresses those issues while keeping starving intact would be more faithful to the rework.

Idk I just want to experiment with things before just reverting back to literally what we had before.

Not controversial, I think this was well spoken! Your reasoning makes sense. I'd also be fine with any non-hit hunger-restoring tool that she gets not working in Starving so long as it could serve as an escape button from Ravenous. Provided that is combined with changes to hunger drain in hit/block stun, then I think this version of Starving would be fine, actually. As long as it is 100% the Umbrella player's fault every time she falls into Starving, then keeping it as a checkmate state is reasonable.

Will play more of the latest patch, assuming it does come out tonight!

 

[Liam]

3.7.2 is live:

Skullgirls 2nd Encore - Beta Mode Update [4/16/2024] - Steam News

Hello, Today's update features a new debug feature for those using debug replays, and continued balance changes for characters. In case you missed it, our last update featured a large rework for Umbrella. You can read the update notes for that update here: DEBUG REPLAYS Everything below assumes...

store.steampowered.com

 

[Adeveis]

I don't think umbrella c.mp even in rav should be a low. I get the idea of making her threatening at like 2 character lengths away and buffing her overhead for it. However giving her a low from this far makes it so once she gets in range she forces you to sit there and block low because of preblock. You're unable to disengage with walking backwards or up backing. The button is also a massive disjoint and most characters don't have anything to counter footsie it. She already has the speed boost in rav, the slide on her c.lk, and the plus frames from sns. i think she has plenty to threaten at a range and force her turn. c.mp doesn't need to be a low. If it is going to be a low, it should probably not be disjointed so it can at least be counter poked. Again though I think she has plenty to keep ppl from getting away from her in sns and c.mp being a mid can still put ppl in preblock and lock them to the ground without forcing them to downback and hold it from over there.

 

[Ikkisoad]

Really love the replay take over, I still can't believe we have it ty ty ty very much

I'd like if we could get the option to get a bigger timer or no timer at all, because from my testings when trying to lab out happy birthday situations or longer combo routes with DHCs I could barely get to the snap or couldn't end the combo.

Either way, even if it stays with the 10s timer it is still amazing, awesome work <3

 

[Liam]

However giving her a low from this far makes it so once she gets in range she forces you to sit there and block low because of preblock. You're unable to disengage with walking backwards or up backing.

Just triple checking in case something wonky is happening, but preblock does not change per move, it's just a flat 275 units. So any range that Umbrella could threaten you with preblock to stop an upback is the same range that another character with a long cLK could threaten you as well.

I think it's unlikely to stay exactly as is without adjustments though and agree it's extremely powerful! I think vulnerable hurtboxes would be a good addition, and perhaps the Ravenous version doesn't need to be as long range all the way to the tip of the art.

I'd like if we could get the option to get a bigger timer or no timer at all

Sure, no problem.

 

[DEMACLIO]

Awesome changes Liam, love your work!
I haven't had much time to play around with new Umbrella, and won't be able to for another 5 days as I'm travelling, but I have some very early thoughts (prior to today's balance changes like cMP hitting low again, etc).

She's fun! I am struggling with re-learning when to go into a desired hunger state for certain situations, but overstuffed feels fun to do combos in even if I don't have proper routes yet, and satiated feels more enticing now that it's more evenly balanced with the rest of her hunger states. 3MP is also silly and fun and I love it.

Ravenous is goofy and fun, but I'm honestly having trouble chasing people down. This is probably a skill issue since I've only had an evening to play with her, but it feels like her dash start up is a bit slow, so I have trouble dash jumping and getting aggressive from a range. Still, I'm yet to make the most of her full kit in ravenous, maybe I'm not spamming SnS hard enough.

Being in ravenous can feel like a double edged sword; you have much better movement and normals, but if a character is good at walling you out, or air stalling in particular, it feels like there's nothing she can do (without assists, I mostly played her solo to get used to her) to chase a flying opponent down. I had games against a solo Filia in which they spammed L airball and airdashed away until I was starving, felt like all I could do was superjump jMP and pray. I worry this could also happen against Painwheel, Marie, Squigly, etc.

I saw floating ideas of a non-physical way to get from rav to satiated without getting a physical hit, and I think this might be valid. If she had old starving L bubble for instance (eats butterfly and fills hunger with no bubble), it might be nice to be able to sacrifice staying in ravenous for better neutral in satiated depending on the matchup. Of course, you wouldn't let her do this in starving to punish her for not thinking ahead, but I think it'd be good to have the player really think "is it worth staying in ravenous, or should I go back up to full satiated for bubbles?" in moments like the one described above.

Keep up the awesome work as always, eager to play more of her and hopefully remake my starter guide fo her later down the line!

 

[dekillsage]

Umbrella 2MP in ravenous makes sense being this strong with how current ravenous works imo. Since she doesn't get to loop the mode anymore she should be dangerous and that move is max dangerous.

Not 100% sure how I feel about toning down options characters have when they're not lenny/ fortune meter build tier. Robo's 2mk active frames changing is very random to me. That move is very much a big part of what makes robo unique no character really does that. (Reminds me a lot of Goku 2M in early DBFZ).
Her getting the same jump nerf fortune got is also weird when she doesn't have three dp options to choose from. Made sense that she had to commit to jumping forward to try and escape a lot of pressure or bank 5HP. She can probably still do that to some extent but that's a prime robo option. I do get players hating it though my band jabs have whiffed on that jump a million times lol

Would love to play Marie with throw -> H shoulder being universal and L punch not scaling my combo right away (at least not that hard) so I have something solid off 2HP starters.

 

[Bbp]

replay takeover is hype. Is it possible to buffer the select input for replay buffer so that I can freeze the game the moment the round starts? it would make testing round starts easier.

 

[SonicFox]

I agree with Sage on the point Robo Fortune nerfs. All it's doing is adding even more stonks to people picking Big Band over Robo Fortune, especially since her assist got a substantial nerf while Big Band's didnt.?

I don't necessarily mind seeing nerfs to the meta assists, but it doesn't sit entirely right with me that Beam assist lost like two hits on it AND stays on the screen longer, while H Brass and H Beat Extend still exist the way that they are. I already felt that Big Band IS the better character out of the two characters, but what made Robo Fortune incredibly powerful is that her support could make teams as good as the Big Band oriented ones.

It'll be harder to justify using Robo as meta assist over Big Band if she keeps getting nerfed. If we go down this path, again it's fine, but then I would personally like to see H Brass/H Beat extend get touched, since Big Band is a character that actually two touches you off of anything.

 

[SeaJay]

Replay takeover is so hype!!! I can barely believe we're getting such a cool feature.

May I humbly request that the takeover time get extended from 10 seconds to 30 (or even more)? I wanna use it to do some epic HCH punish cutscene-ass combo to prove that something would have killed.

Is it possible to buffer the select input for replay buffer so that I can freeze the game the moment the round starts? it would make testing round starts easier.

Being able to freeze before roundstart would be even better since I might want to use a charge move or something.

 

[VoltTurtle]

The fix to 3MP where it's prioritized over SnS has helped a lot! I'm actually able to use it every time I want to instead of constantly misinputing from charging out of habit. It still feels a little weird to actively use, but I think I can get used to it!

Nothing else to report other than that the double snap hunger freeze and the general drain slowdown feel way better to play around, not nearly as anxiety inducing. I still think Umby should get a Ravenous eject button if she's not getting one out of Starving, though. Failing that, an extra anti-zoner tool (Empowered SnS Projectile Armor ala Eliza 2HK is the first thing that comes to mind, but I'm open to other ideas) would be greatly appreciated.

I might change my mind as I play more and more changes filter in. We'll see!

(New replay feature is also really cool! Thank you!)

 

[Gelato]

Replay takeover is a dream come true! Can it be made such that when a button is held during the freeze countdown, it buffers that action immediately after the freeze? I can see my button become held but it wont execute the action.

I agree our princess is perfect the way she is... except for one thing. I think the way HK Flash Kick > super cancel Level 3 doesn't do full damage on certain characters because a large portion of the bullets go under them could be worth looking at.

 

[Liam]

replay takeover is hype. Is it possible to buffer the select input for replay buffer so that I can freeze the game the moment the round starts? it would make testing round starts easier.

Being able to freeze before roundstart would be even better since I might want to use a charge move or something.

Will see about this, no promises.

May I humbly request that the takeover time get extended from 10 seconds to 30 (or even more)? I wanna use it to do some epic HCH punish cutscene-ass combo to prove that something would have killed.

Extended to 30s for the next update.

Can it be made such that when a button is held during the freeze countdown, it buffers that action immediately after the freeze? I can see my button become held but it wont execute the action.

I don't think we'll have time to do this right now since this would probably require a bit of input refactoring and exploration to get working correctly.

I think the way HK Flash Kick > super cancel Level 3 doesn't do full damage on certain characters because a large portion of the bullets go under them could be worth looking at.

I don't think anything would resolve that unless bullets tried to pull the victim closer to the center of barrage, but maybe that's doable. I was planning on doing the same thing for Sagan Beam too.

while H Brass and H Beat Extend still exist the way that they are

The rest of the things I wanted to glance at that are on my Big Band list are:
- Beat Extend
- Brass (Assist)
- Lv3 Super Damage
- Lv5 Super Damage

I am open to thoughts from Band players about nerfs they think are reasonable for his meta defining assists, but I also expect a lot of Band players will say "he's fine" and not want their character nerfed, so we may just have to experiment with some things.

Made sense that she had to commit to jumping forward to try and escape a lot of pressure or bank 5HP. She can probably still do that to some extent but that's a prime robo option. I do get players hating it though my band jabs have whiffed on that jump a million times lol

She can still commit to up forward buffered jMP/jLP to skip all of the new animation frames and tuck her hurtbox very quickly, but I get you. With a poor meterless reversal she is holding blockstrings and pressure in the corner way more than other characters, but when you finally catch this character bullying her is somewhat deserved imo. She may need PBGC jump forward to exist on defense in the corner, but upback I think can keep the art change just fine.

I'd still like people to play with it some more first and see how it feels.

 

[CaioLugon]

Big band is not fine

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I think that people may be overestimating the impact of the Robo Fortune on point nerfs. These changes aren't really bringing her ability to play neutral down, they're just making some of her options less corny, in line with the other catgirl. Robo 2mk does not need to anti air, and she doesn't need a jump with a weird hitbox that avoids everything. H beam, while legitimately nerfed, was very overtuned. It basically has all the good properties of VS games beams; it has Magneto/Doom beam speed, Iron Man beam active frames and hitstun. It might actually be in the running for one of the best beam assists ever put in a VS game, which for a game that wants to be balanced Marvel vs Capcom 2 with a dash of +R for flavor, is definitely too much.

I promise everyone that a year from now we're still gonna see as much robo fortune play as we are currently, those crutching on her for her assist will just have to learn how to apply her tools better. I feel like we have this same conversation every time a character gets reasonable normalization changes, and it always plays out that they're still good, you just have to think more about when to use their options because they are less risk averse. Robo and Big Band have been dodging these nerfs for quite awhile, I think it's a healthy shake up for the meta. Beam/brass meta is something we all wanted to see adjusted, and now it is getting adjusted, so those assists carry more risk, and as a result the assist pool gets more interesting.

 

[DomiWizza]

Would it be possible to have a patch with nerfed Band, but he gets two soundstun uses per combo? Idk if that's a weird request, but it sounds fun.


kinda fucked up how you can just be constantly out thinking maneuvering outplaying out mathemicaling a big band and then you back off because he might smash super and then suddenly he goes STARBUCKS!!!!!! and den you get hit out of no where and 3/4 of your shit is gone

 

[SeaJay]

Will see about this, no promises.

Extended to 30s for the next update.

Let's gooo

- Beat Extend

When on point, I've always thought that Band should not be able to do frametrap SSJ after blocked Beat. He should just die for having his DP blocked, no questions asked. Yes you can delay your punish to avoid it, but it effectively shortens the punish window (I think it effectively makes L Beat -18 ish instead of the -24 that it ought to be).

As an assist, I dunno. It's definitely a fantastic assist and a top 2 DP assist (alongside Annie's), but I don't know what I would do with it. L/M already have targeted nerfs with increased vulnerability frames and lower blockstun as assist. I haven't played with H much because its stubby first hitbox is really bad for my team, but if people think its "DP+lockdown" quality is too much, maybe it could catch the same nerfs that L/M got. Nobody was playing H when L/M got those nerfs, so it never got the same scrutiny.

- Brass (Assist)

Honestly not sure what you'd do with this other than just making it do a bit less damage so it doesn't take as giant chunks out of enemy assist health bars as a countercall.

- Lv3 Super Damage

I think the amount that it does on eg. Filia is fine. It's less than some other Level 3s (Para, Eliza, Double, Robo, Starving Umby, HI PW) in the corner at ~3k max scaling, but marginally more than them midscreen at ~4.2k max scaling. It also doesn't do as well on happy birthdays as most of those other supers, because the two opponent characters tend to "share" the damage rather than get hit at the same time.

Meanwhile, the amount of damage that it does on larger characters (+ Peacock for some reason) is egregious, especially so on another Big Band. He does ~5.3k max scaling on another Big Band midscreen, which totally outclasses the most damaging Level 3s (starving Umby and HI PW at ~3.9k).

I think if there were fewer projectiles but their spread was made much tighter such that it did roughly Filia damage on everyone (or a little more), that would be a significant nerf while still making it a good damage super and rewarding going for side swaps out of the corner to get the midscreen version.

(Assuming HI PW has no Hatred Guard built up for the sake of comparisons here, yeah she can technically do a zillion damage if she has a lot of it built up but it doesn't tend to actually happen often)

Level 3 super damage comparison: https://wiki.gbl.gg/w/Skullgirls/Game_Data#Level_3_Supers

- Lv5 Super Damage

Nah, I think he should have it. It's similar to Robo's in damage, but you get a wallbounce into OTG combo instead of a gigantic laser hitbox which is a fair tradeoff. If you're spending 5 bars they should DIE, and it's a reasonable step up over what you get for 4 bars with tympany+level 3.

I think the only really dumb thing about it already got removed (swinging on assists with it and using the wallbounce to make it pseudo safe).

IMO I'd like to see more really good Level 5s, rather than making any of the current ~3 or so good ones worse. Band's is the best in the game, sure, but he's only really competing with Robo's and Val's, with Double's coming in as a situational 4th. Squigly's has too many requirements to land it for the damage it does, Fukua's is hard to combo into and it isn't worth gambling 5 bars on landing it raw, Annie level 5 photo bop might as well not exist for all intents and purposes.

Level 5 super damage comparison: https://wiki.gbl.gg/w/Skullgirls/Game_Data#Level_5_Supers

 

[SeaJay]

Would it be possible to have a patch with nerfed Band, but he gets two soundstun uses per combo? Idk if that's a weird request, but it sounds fun.

Tbh I think that this would be boring because if he gets a no-soundstun starter he just does two H beats in the combo instead of one (boring), and if he gets a sound stun starter he no longer has to worry about adapting (boring).

I might get behind some change that encourages him to use his other soundstun moves in combos (step, cymbals, and weed blaster)

 

[JuuseBox]

Big band is not fine

Elaborating on this, even as much as people cap on this characters strengths. The fact that characters like dahlia, squig, headless fortune, and others can raw tag him in and access damage ridiculously outside their own scope is quite ridiculous.

Being able to access his damage and best in class assists while also not really needing to play the character at disadvantage is a huge issue imo

 

[DomiWizza]

Tbh I think that this would be boring because if he gets a no-soundstun starter he just does two H beats in the combo instead of one (boring), and if he gets a sound stun starter he no longer has to worry about adapting (boring).

I might get behind some change that encourages him to use his other soundstun moves in combos (step, cymbals, and weed blaster)

I see your point and I agree! Maybe something like: Each move has its own soundstun once per combo ( ex: beat extend starter means you cant use BE in that combo but you can still use cymbals, step, 2HP ). Or maybe a combination of both: limited two soundstuns per combo AND you cant use the same soundstun move ( ex: BE starter, no more BE in that combo and you can choose to use cymbals or 2HP etc. ).

Might not be easy to implement though lmao

 

[Ikkisoad]

Could Band's level 5 indicator of "oh your oponnent is blocking" not be a thing?
That is another one of those things that I was so confused about when I found out about it and Idk why that should be a thing.

 

[CaioLugon]

I haven't played with H much because its stubby first hitbox is really bad for my team, but if people think its "DP+lockdown" quality is too much, maybe it could catch the same nerfs that L/M got

Beat extend is DP+lockdown+huge hitbox front and back+easiest conversion out of all DP assists. It does have a significant blind spot and comes out a little slow, but its an absolute happy birthday machine and turn stealer, I'm hoping all versions get toned down harder than they have been in the past.

I'm on the same boat not really knowing a good way to nerf brass. My suggestions would be 1 hit of armor instead of 2 and less damage, and maybe blue bounce so you can't otg after it, but that feels harsh.

He does ~5.3k max scaling on another Big Band midscreen, which totally outclasses the most damaging Level 3s (starving Umby and HI PW at ~3.9k).

If you're spending 5 bars they should DIE

HI pw lv3 is a lv5

 

[Liam]

For how large Beat Extend is I've been thinking about not having it happy birthday at all if possible. I believe there were some changes to that a long time ago but it doesn't feel like it meaningfully moved the needle. If the assist went flying (like old Big Band airlines for those from that era, but not as extreme) and then the point character was dropped at his feet as normal, that could be a bit more fair.

Being able to access his damage and best in class assists while also not really needing to play the character at disadvantage is a huge issue imo

Yeah, "just tag to band to fix my low damage character problems and do 10k" (or run H Brass or A-Train) is certainly a thing. For the tag in combos specifically, we could try make his tag in give him a HKD instead of a combo like an H Brass hit.

 

[SeaJay]

Could Band's level 5 indicator of "oh your oponnent is blocking" not be a thing?
That is another one of those things that I was so confused about when I found out about it and Idk why that should be a thing.

Ok good point he definitely shouldn't have that. I actually forgot about it because honestly it doesn't feel like it makes a difference most of the time, but he doesn't deserve to have an input reader taped onto his super even if it only matters a small % of the time

Beat extend is DP+lockdown+huge hitbox front and back+easiest conversion out of all DP assists.

Well, none of the strengths have all of these qualities at once. L doesn't have a back hitbox, neither L or M are lockdown, and H's initial hitbox is pretty small which makes it very easy to stuff from the air.

HI pw lv3 is a lv5

You need to start with 5 bars to have access to it, but those 5 bars are also paying for the HI combo - you're not ever paying 5 bars ONLY to do that super and nothing else. The marginal cost vs doing a HI combo without a super at the end is 3 bars. If you want to treat it as a Level 5 then you need to include all the marginal damage benefit of doing a HI combo which gets kinda complicated because it's route specific.

It's less accessible than other Level 3s because it's only available in a state where you've already spent some meter, but it's still a Level 3.

For the tag in combos specifically, we could try make his tag in give him a HKD instead of a combo like an H Brass hit.

I've seen a good few routes where Band whiffs the tag while a projectile super keeps the opponent busy, so this wouldn't completely do away with the problem, but it would address some of it.

If possible I'd prefer solutions where Band can still do a cool tag route but it isn't as rewarding, instead of just killing the tag route and not letting people do them.

 

[CathyBarasAreCute]

I personally think that nerfing Big Band on point is bad. A great deal of players already only pick him for the assists, so this change would only really affect the ones that do put effort into his game. I'd think less DHC damage for these would be the best nerf in this case., getting rid of the Lvl 5 blocking indicator too, as that would punish reckless play.

As for the assist I'm all in for nerfing them, longer HBrass recovery, BE not using soundstun on assists, anything goes really. Specially HBrass now that HBeam was nerfed. On point it should all be mostly the same though, Big Band is a very good character, but he can get beat up badly in some good amount of match ups.

Beat Extend not giving happy birthdays is good too, still punishes the point for overextending but doesn't just easily kill off another char.

 

[tarrasq]

Largely agree with Seajay, Caio, and Juuse's posts. I am the aforemetioned band player who will say "band is fine", but I'd like to try Seajay's proposed adjustment to level 3. I would really prefer not to see H brass adjusted, but if it has to be, I think either a minor damage reduction or receiving the nerf to countercall damage all assists had in the previous beta version would be a good experiment. Brass's status as a powerful damage engine is healthy for the meta in my opinon. Regarding beat extend, I think the idea of no version HBD'ing is a pretty significant nerf that would bring it in line power-wise with other DP assists like parasoul and filia. Also think a change like that would make annie DP significantly more attractive than it already is.

 

[Valencia]

heavy brass assist should have reduced armor hits honestly, maybe 1 to bring it in line with other neutral assists like H Bomber and make it not work like a dp assist in disguise (but with massive damage). the damage could get some tuning but keeping its benefit of counter calling assists with big damage.

on board with reducing lockdown on h beat assist and especially its ability to happy birthday, ive gotten some random happy birthdays thanks to it and its kinda unfair. other than that i think the other beat extends are okay as they are since even if they are easy to confirm from, a annie dp scales less than a h beat.

i believe the tagging into big band for combos isn't much of an issue, people do it in the corner mostly and you should be rewarded for securing the corner.

it would be nice if big band kept his status as a glue character, nerfing the egregious stuff like lvl 3 damage on dhc (maybe on point too its so much damage) and his busted assists.

 

[CaioLugon]

If you want to treat it as a Level 5 then you need to include all the marginal damage benefit of doing a HI combo which gets kinda complicated because it's route specific.

Here is a comparison: PW 5 bar from a 2lk vs Band 5 bar combo from a throw. Note how much meter they each have at the start. Also how PW is already out of install when the combo ends.

It's true that HI has other benefits, but in regards to the buffed lv3 itself I think it's even more expensive than most lv5s considering the early meter requirement into install, which removes 70% of her already low metergain on the subsequent combo. And there's still more nuance to it, of course, with both advantages and disadvantages, but I think considering it a lv5 is very very fair.

And I do think band's lv5 is fine ftr! It just my inner complainwheel coming out.

Brass's status as a powerful damage engine is healthy for the meta in my opinon.

Big agree on this, I'm a huge fan of early assist call routing and brass enables a lot of really cool stuff, but it that's the niche brass fills in the end, I think it definitely needs its overall support function looked at.

 

[Triviality]

Brass's status as a powerful damage engine is healthy for the meta in my opinon.

Aggressive Meta's are better and Brass is used to enable aggression for all characters, simple as

If "X character has poor damage but if you tag in band after one magic string you kill character LOL" is the problem then just nerf his damage,

but even so don't go so crazy about it BECAUSE he has cutscene combos and I do not think cutscene combo characters that take 2 years to reach a reset point should have low damage, Marie has this problem currently but I haven't really fought her enough to cement that as something i'm totally sure on?

for band combos what I see really is:

Max scaled super damage
Being able to do a second beat extend *Shake* after you shook with it the first time

[[[he's fine]]] and is a checks and balance to the game overall and would like to see minimal changes personally

 

[Liam]

I tried Nail Storage. I think it's very FUN, but I don't think a giant wall of projectiles that's impossible to avoid that she can combo off of is very fair, and it's easy enough to charge it while running away and calling assists, etc. I will probably not be putting it out in a update, it's a bit too much IMO.

Video demonstration:

https://imgur.com/GPTaXMc

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

For how large Beat Extend is I've been thinking about not having it happy birthday at all if possible. I believe there were some changes to that a long time ago but it doesn't feel like it meaningfully moved the needle. If the assist went flying (like old Big Band airlines for those from that era, but not as extreme) and then the point character was dropped at his feet as normal, that could be a bit more fair.

I'm not sure how I feel about this change, and I think perhaps nerfing BE in a different way would be more appropriate. I've always liked how DP assists, more specifically Beat Extend, are one size fits all solutions to teams that just constantly want to be in your face and hit buttons. It makes team comps that normally don't give you any breathing room slow down a bit, because over exerting pressure gets you and your assist killed. I think a big problem before was that tagging in band to deal with him and remove the assist option was not really in your favor unless you had the corner and could do the sj j.lk meaty. If you tagged him in to deal with him, you had to contest with both (old) Timpani Drive and baby's first parry window. Band doesn't have either of those things anymore, so tagging him in his more worth it, so the hit to his more silly risk adverse defensive options I see as a nerf to his assist pool.

Rather than lose HBD, which Annie DP still does rather well despite the nerfs, I would like to see haphazardly calling Beat Extend, or using it as a pressure assist get worse. Despite all it's nerfed, beat extend is still kind of hard to call out on block because it has enough blockstun that hitting a button after it will always assume risk on your part. I would like to see the move get more recovery frames and/or more blockstun rather than lose the ability to hit two characters. In other words, I don't think the reward of beat extend is too good, I don't think you're risking enough when using it.

I tried Nail Storage. I think it's very FUN, but I don't think a giant wall of projectiles that's impossible to avoid that she can combo off of is very fair, and it's easy enough to charge it while running away and calling assists, etc. I will probably not be putting it out in a update, it's a bit too much IMO.

Video demonstration:

https://imgur.com/GPTaXMc

Perhaps giving her access to this in install only, and making it drain her a chunk of her super meter/install time when she shoots a charged nail would be a good compromise?

 

[CaioLugon]

I tried Nail Storage. I think it's very FUN, but I don't think a giant wall of projectiles that's impossible to avoid that she can combo off of is very fair, and it's easy enough to charge it while running away and calling assists, etc. I will probably not be putting it out in a update, it's a bit too much IMO.

Video demonstration:

https://imgur.com/GPTaXMc

PAINWHEEL MENTIONED LETS GO

But yeah, does look like too much unfortunately... (can we try it for the one time tho? eyes emoji)
What about charged nail assist? I feel like the long start-up would balance it out but I can also see it being too much.

 

[Triviality]

I tried Nail Storage. I think it's very FUN,

I'm convinced let's try it

 

[KomodoSwagDragon]

Big Band General Thoughts:
I personally think that big band is healthy for the game. The matchups he helps other characters with the most are some of his most difficult matchups when on the screen himself. I'm thinking of Parasoul, Dahlia, and Peacock when I say this. When he is used as a damage engine he loses you corner pressure after your kill. His assists only really become oppressive when the opponent makes a creative team building choice that forgets to include counter play to most common neutral assists or any dp assist whatsoever.

I think most of the changes to this character should revolve around how you effectively punish and respond to his strong tools and not necessarily changing the tools themselves. For example the window to frame trap ssj after beat extend should probably be removed (additionally you could also look at removing the ability to shake the dp when only the assist was hit but the point character blocked the dp). The change to tympani was similar to this where people struggled to punish it in situations so it was made easier. Another potential change is to allow sweeps to effectively stuff or trade with brass at max range (potentially you could add a hitbox lower than where brass hits to allow this to happen i'm not entirely sure how to accomplish this in the engine.)

Beat Extend:
L and M versions already have increased vulnerability and I essentially never see these assists outside of M for Bella. H dp is also rather uncommon for me to fight but you could potentially reduce the blockstun similar to how annie's dp was changed. H dp also fails to anti-air where other dp assists would almost always anti-air due to how big band's dp works itself. I personally don't play see it played enough (probably because brass is so much more popular amond the people I play) to know what people find annoying about it.

Brass:
I personally think people do not punish this assist as hard as they should. if it is used proactively you can call your own assist at a timing where the assist will start hitting it just after the brass punches and control the space brass was taking up. As a counter call assist it also loses to the other two most common neutral assists (Beam and Bomber) when used as an immediate counter call to either of them and will only beat bomber if called at the same time (you are forced to wait until their assist is over to call band to get a punish which if allowed by the opponent usually means that they are not properly covering their assists and you would have punished that assist anyways.) I think if anything you could potentially allow someone to potentially stuff brass with a sweep when done at max range to allow the opponent some counterplay to someone just calling brass and running in. (The peacock matchup would probably need to be looked at as peacocks options after sweep are incredibly strong)

Edit: I forgot to mention you could probably touch damage but this assist does already scale your combo. Also I agree with potentially giving a bigger counterhit window to reward players for punishing band.

Lvl 3:
His level 3 does do quite a large amount of damage and I think it definitely could lose some. However when you are using that max damage you are forced to route very specifically and you lose the corner when you kill the character. When used to keep the corner it gets outdamaged by the other prominent damage lvl 3's (Robo, Double, Parasoul). I think if you do adjust the damage midscreen I would love to see the damage become normalized across the cast to the lower damage thresholds. Squiggly takes about 1k less than the bigger characters for example.

Lvl 5:
I personally think lvl 5 should stay the same because its incredibly hype and in all actuality probably only causes you to win around 1 out of 50 or so games (if that) you would otherwise lose. Lvl 3 would kill most of the time lvl 5 is used or usually some dhc sequence with your team would also kill.

 

[keninblack]

Liam's living in the kitchen!!

Big Band: Lv3 can get toned down a bit, lv5 can stay because I personally wish more lv5's in general were more useful. Brass can get dmg reduction, easier to sweep, or both? It should definitely get something since beam got something.

Fortune and Peacock nerfs are perfect so far, I'm sure some stuff will get reverted, but hoping most of it stays.

Double changes are great, new L gun is a great compromise.

Fukua change is perfect, if it health loss ever comes back I hope she finds more ways to get health back.

I'd love for Parasoul changes just for stuff to be excited for, but yeah I really don't know what I'd test. Bring back old bike on point? Buff M Solider? Give jlp jmk jlp reverse beat one less combo stage? I honestly think she's mainly in a good spot. Curious to see what will happen!

PLEASE let us try stored nails that would be amazing.


Really enjoying the beta, can't wait to see more tweaks!

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I'd love for Parasoul changes just for stuff to be excited for, but yeah I really don't know what I'd test. Bring back old bike on point? Buff M Solider? Give jlp jmk jlp reverse beat one less combo stage? I honestly think she's mainly in a good spot. Curious to see what will happen!

Would absolutely love to see M Egret and H Egret get some sort of buffs. Parasoul doesn't really need or want for much at the end of the day, but making zoning matchups a bit more tolerable would be the one thing I would argue she needs. Also, I'd just like to see these moves more often instead of just situationally. I understand buffing them too much would be way too good but we have beam assists in this game now so maybe M soldier could get some of his buffness back.

 

[CaioLugon]

If anything, making 4hk H egret work on bigband would be great.

Also tk tear reverted to normal would be nice, I heard theres some cursed broken tech involving it but i've never seen it (though i'm sure liam would know about it cause he's been the parasoul goat for forever).

edit: oh another thing would be prioritizing pillar over tear toss on 2147k

 

[tarrasq]

Big agree on this, I'm a huge fan of early assist call routing and brass enables a lot of really cool stuff, but it that's the niche brass fills in the end, I think it definitely needs its overall support function looked at.

I think band's support game is his primary draw as a character so i'm really leery of the idea of devaluing it, especially for things he spends meter on. Meter is the strongest resource in SG and I think spending large amounts of it skillfully on good routes should get rewarded with large amounts of damage. I don't really think he should get any of his super adjusted now that tympany has been, but if something has to be, I'd like it to be the level 3 experiment. Brass losing significant damage would have a ripple effect on teambuilding and offense in this game that I think would be unhealthy, and losing a hit of armor or the green bounce would be painful for band players and not really assuage the issue people have with it in neutral; you should already be looking to multihit it, and you always want to try and convert from the air. Doing markedly less damage to the assist on a countercall, weakening one of its strongest functions rn, is a better choice to me.

Big Band General Thoughts:
I personally think that big band is healthy for the game. The matchups he helps other characters with the most are some of his most difficult matchups when on the screen himself. I'm thinking of Parasoul, Dahlia, and Peacock when I say this. When he is used as a damage engine he loses you corner pressure after your kill. His assists only really become oppressive when the opponent makes a creative team building choice that forgets to include counter play to most common neutral assists or any dp assist whatsoever.

I think most of the changes to this character should revolve around how you effectively punish and respond to his strong tools and not necessarily changing the tools themselves. For example the window to frame trap ssj after beat extend should probably be removed (additionally you could also look at removing the ability to shake the dp when only the assist was hit but the point character blocked the dp). The change to tympani was similar to this where people struggled to punish it in situations so it was made easier. Another potential change is to allow sweeps to effectively stuff or trade with brass at max range (potentially you could add a hitbox lower than where brass hits to allow this to happen i'm not entirely sure how to accomplish this in the engine.)

Beat Extend:
L and M versions already have increased vulnerability and I essentially never see these assists outside of M for Bella. H dp is also rather uncommon for me to fight but you could potentially reduce the blockstun similar to how annie's dp was changed. H dp also fails to anti-air where other dp assists would almost always anti-air due to how big band's dp works itself. I personally don't play see it played enough (probably because brass is so much more popular amond the people I play) to know what people find annoying about it.

Brass:
I personally think people do not punish this assist as hard as they should. if it is used proactively you can call your own assist at a timing where the assist will start hitting it just after the brass punches and control the space brass was taking up. As a counter call assist it also loses to the other two most common neutral assists (Beam and Bomber) when used as an immediate counter call to either of them and will only beat bomber if called at the same time (you are forced to wait until their assist is over to call band to get a punish which if allowed by the opponent usually means that they are not properly covering their assists and you would have punished that assist anyways.) I think if anything you could potentially allow someone to potentially stuff brass with a sweep when done at max range to allow the opponent some counterplay to someone just calling brass and running in. (The peacock matchup would probably need to be looked at as peacocks options after sweep are incredibly strong)

Largely agree with Komodo on this, I think that Brass is the most balanced top tier assist by virtue of how powerfully and easily it can be punished with relatively simple counterplay compared to other choices like beam and bomber.

edit- Gonna make a longer post eventually, but wanna say really love the replay takeover thing and most of the new beta stuff so far

 

[keninblack]

If anything, making 4hk H egret work on bigband would be great.

Also tk tear reverted to normal would be nice, I heard theres some cursed broken tech involving it but i've never seen it (though i'm sure liam would know about it cause he's been the parasoul goat for forever).

edit: oh another thing would be prioritizing pillar over tear toss on 2147k

I've always had teams where I can get the bike combo on band without spending otg, even without clide, so its never been something I thought of too much. She also has really busted Band specific midscreen mix , but I would definitely be down to have this that'd be sick!

TK tear old explosion pre nerf being revisited with the general system mechanics would be interesting to try, but would likely be too strong again.

I'd be open to any and ALL changes to her priority/inputs that would overall be qol and help her out for sure, curious to what Liam has in mind for our Queen!