The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[Triviality]

 

[Stuff]

I think it's very strange that SG is thought to have a design philosophy when everyone seems to disagree on what that even is. I've written this before but I still think that before anything, since balances changes are community driven, everyone should just say what they want the game to look like.

I personally see the game as "I hit you maybe I didn't even deserve that hit but it doesn't matter and will now loop whatever unseeable reset I want and now you're dead" which I don't find very interesting and I don't find it to have "freedom to do whatever you want" as most tools I like get used for rushdown and then get removed while I lose whatever niche I enjoyed but I'm just me and I don't think many other people share how I feel. I think SG is more "You can do whatever you want, as long as you bother doing resets at all" which I don't like doing and very few characters can avoid this playstyle at all and if they can, it's usually with a tool that's gonna go away because it's much better as a rushdown tool, which makes me sad.

I don't see much wrong with A B or C as long as the game sticks to it but the thing is I legit don't think SG really has a design philosophy, it's community driven, there's no SG bible. Hell SG back then isn't even like SG now so really I think these "by design" arguments are automatically flawed, it only got this way because the people asked for things, Painwheel would likely never have gotten unfly if it wasn't for the community since it wasn't there by design.

But I'll say it again, I think that in order to balance the game properly people really need to jot down how they feel about the game and what they want the game to be since it's very easy to alienate others when we're doing balance changes. Ultimately it's the dev's choice but the dev also wants to make the community happy with the game so it'd be nice if the community expressed what they want the game to be. Once it's A B or C or whatever letter, it's much easier to suggest changes or balance characters, as long as something is set in stone for what the game has to be.

 

[Nuuance]

@mpgame99 I feel like there’s a difference between tiers/ease & amount of viable options tools though…they’re not exclusively linked. many Characters have a lot of tools but it is harder for them to deal with matchups. I love a challenge & souls/elden ring I think inhabits people being cool with being the underdog. But nonetheless your character isn’t short of tools to do what they want. same Principle. I think people are just asking for more avenues of character expression & improvements in general allowing tools to work as we genuinely think they should. Absolutely we all vary on to what degree we want what & I don’t think anyone even cares about who’s what tier as people just play who they like & mash apples from there.

filia/peacock or whoever…I’m happy to let them do what they do. But I think the reason they’re so loved is because their flexibility & adaptability. Everyone is viable because the community are true players & I respect that. But you can’t say that everyone has tools that are as fun Or gamechanging. I’m not talking necessarily power level.

Robo is a prime example. she‘s seriously a Swiss Army knife but takes work. A lot of niche uses, but in general she’s liquid enough to just go crazy with her style. She’s a technical rush-down zoner & isn’t relegated to anything because her tools, while niche, are more widely applicable to prominent play. I think that’s all we’re asking...not making everyone the same. Balance is not for that. SF5 just got an update & it’s funny how hype max got (regardless of people’s opinion of maximillian) saying something along the lines of “I think it’s cool that finally we got back to just, let’s make this shit as fun as we can” & ive said it a few times…that’s what it boils down to & that’s what keeps making people come back if you look at any string of updates from any game. Free the characters…that’s all (I’ll just speak for myself) I want.

I don’t wanna meter options for others & just as well I don’t want to be limited as well. Everyone should get sick strong options…& the sooner that happens, the sooner people will be happy. @Stuff far as people asking for what they want, that’s been happening for the past year but hardly any of it has been acknowledged in the slightest…pretty much ignored almost as if the community isnt important. only experiments. so of course we end up still talking about it.

 

[BicepsAtMid]

I think we need to learn that it’s okay to be mid tier. SOMEONE has to be mid tier and I feel like a lot people are in this state that if their character isn’t in top 3/5, that there’s something wrong with them and like I just don’t get it at all.

Especially since the main argument seems to be “well X top tier does this so why can’t my character” as if people even LIKE whatever that top tier is doing in the first place. I personally would not enjoy the game as much if everyone was as good as Fortune/Pea/Annie. So trying to push characters closer to that “for fun” isn’t like a good thing to me

I understand what your saying but bella would not be in the same tier as fortune/peacock if her jhp was reverted, it was like that before annie and she was still just a tier lower then those characters. I really dont think we have to worry about reverted bella being some threat to the meta either, especially with the rise of robo (more representation in the sgcs final blockbuster then RETAIL ANNIE!!) bella actually just cant fight robo. Jhp being overhead doesn't do anything to change that or any of her mu's for that matter. Its just a giving a tool back that never deserved to be taken away in the first place

 

[Karibu]

I understand what your saying but bella would not be in the same tier as fortune/peacock if her jhp was reverted, it was like that before annie and she was still just a tier lower then those characters. I really dont think we have to worry about reverted bella being some threat to the meta either, especially with the rise of robo (more representation in the sgcs final blockbuster then RETAIL ANNIE!!) bella actually just cant fight robo. Jhp being overhead doesn't do anything to change that or any of her mu's for that matter. Its just a giving a tool back that never deserved to be taken away in the first place

By this logic isn't Bella's jHp Revert kinda pointless? what good for the character does "crouch block punish number 4" do?

I do agree that in the current spread of popular characters Bella does struggle(my main sparring partner is Silktail so I've been playing my fair share of Bella vs Robo), so why use any room for buff for the character to give her a redundant tool that doesn't help her.

I'm not good enough at the game to say if Bella CAN fight Robo or not, but if her MUs are too extreme then I would like something to help her deal with them.
I also personally think that jHP not being an overhead makes it such a hype tool to use to beat throws and non airtight lows.

I'm totally down for characters to have a lot of niche tools and ways to do things, Bella is my favourite character because she has so many tools with specific applications, but making jHP overhead again doesn't really expand her toolkit or help her so I would much rather have that power budget spent on something else if the team thinks the character needs help.

(PLEASE MAKE HER COMMAND GRABS CANCELLABLE INTO EACH OTHER LIKE A REKKA, SHE NEEDS IT /s)

 

[Nuuance]

More of an aside but can we just test what people want first…actual things cuz both sides can be debated till cows come home on anything. I mean we’ve had updates, majority of which no one asked for so I’m pretty sure dealing with some desired things would be business as usual (what was supposed to happen in the first place) & if after a bit they just don’t work then can always revert…but it’s been this stalemate for a year. one thing I did like about the older balancing cycle was that there was a freedom to try things. not a lot of fanfare or big deal, just genuinely going for it.

 

[Ikkisoad]

This is the place to discuss and get points and views across, I don't see a point on "letting everything in" without a solid reason.

So like I said before, giving Bella jHP overhead back is just not interesting, it is such an oppressive button (specially in the corner) and having little risk for a great reward and also get a mix out of it is just too much while she has other tools that fit that role.
To me Bella is still a very strong character, good DHCs, great assists and a strong mix up game; So I do think that she is fine as is.

 

[Nuuance]

Not everything. Just what has already been discussed. of which a lot has already been hashed out. past year weve been talking. often in circles. That’s all. but Overall there has to be some give otherwise nothing will get done.

Because ‘solid reasoning’ doesn’t really mean much half the time because both sides on paper often look good/make sense. If someone decides they don’t (or do) like the idea of something, they will rarely change their mind. Like with ram in gg. People thought shed be lame but turned out she wasn’t. only way people could know was playing it. Not even dev gameplay. I mean…that’s the point of this process in the first place :p if It doesn’t stick or it does, it’s one less thing to keep discussing — cuz it won’t stop

People had good reasons but were wrong. This happens on both sides. Fighting games are an art not a science which makes things a bit less defined than people think

Anyways last 2 cents for now

 

[nope.avi]

I sincerely disagree with the sentiment that characters should just be good enough or that they're fine losing tools for questionable at best reasons. SG is not the sort of game where characters are pigeon holed one way, or the sort of game where they're just good at one thing, or the sort of game where characters are just good enough, and that's what makes SG great. You're given the ability to be creative and yourself through your own characters, because they're given tools to do so, and these tools are far greater, more applicable, and more present than their purpose on paper.

Double's normalization and loss of L gun makes her less present in her "answer everything, steady pressure" neutral by allowing the opponent to more often get away with an unsafe (especially aerial) approach.
Bella losing jHP makes her less present within her pressure, as the opponent knows that if an overhead is coming, it's the only one they'll have to deal with before just punishing her, and makes jHP less applicable, since now it's just an obscure blockstun tool that gives you leeway towards a narrower list of options to opening opponents up, letting opponents get away with absent mindedly pushing bella away and punishing her for her approach.
Eliza losing backdash on sekhmet grounded overhead makes Sekhmet less applicable and far less present. Sekhmet loses her offensive capabilities beyond mere hyperarmor contesting. It lets the opponent get away with just lamely blocking, waiting for an unsafe overhead for an easy sweep punish.
Umbrella losing bubble insurance/protection (them going away on hit) makes her bobblin and wish maker far less applicable, combined with her hunger damage change she's forced to play in Ravenous in order to have access to decent pressure, the ability to open people up, or any sort of presence within her pressure. The loss of wish maker especially makes it harder to cover herself. It allows the opponent to either rush Umbrella down absentmindedly or zone her at a distance so she can't get use out of her tools, and then quite easily punish Umbrella for her now unsafe and sluggish approach (not to mention going into Starving while getting comboed in ravenous).

In the other direction for a moment, Beo using hype he built mid combo as a reversion makes almost all of his other strategies or gameplans less applicable and more irrelevant, forcing all Beo's to play the same way if they hope to get the best results. While these results may still be good enough, having one gameplan is antithetical to SG's apparent player freedom and expression. (He should obviously be compensated or reworked if this were removed, obviously).

Peacock, Fortune, and Annie having certain tools (Pea bomb timings, Annie jMP, Fortune headless DP) arbitrarily changed made them less applicable and less present, in addition solving none of the issues people really had with them.
For experimented changes that were more contestable, take teleport + assist. Removing it as an option narrows Peacock's gameplan further into zoning by making this offensive strategy less applicable, and lets the opponent not have to think beyond simply avoid the field of projectiles. Peacock is also encouraged to never take risks (which there definitely was, I was among the clips of H teleport bomb/assist getting countered) leading to far less creative and thereby less interesting gameplans.

One may ask, however, if they never needed these tools or strategies to perform their role well, then what is the loss in their removal if they inconvenience the playerbase?

Well, these extra things add facets to these characters do is allow players to expand their playstyle however they see fit using the versatility, strength, and applicability that they grant. Peacock's can choose to be aggressive through up-close lockdown pressure or hard-commit to hurling projectiles to afar, because bombs not going away on hit allow her to create a presence that lets her play with the tools she's given. Bella on the other hand, is in a far less advantageous position, as all the losses she has taken to her pressure game has given her far less presence and thereby ability to play with her tools and play in a way expressive of the player.

On the other hand, when we remove these tools, we remove depth, and, for some characters, the depth needed to answer unfavorable situations and matchups, effectively gutting them in certain areas that just a little more strength, applicability and presence of these tools would solve. Characters in SG have answers and tools for everything in some way, and limiting that towards only necessary to fit their role would only make the roles more applicable themselves more favorable. A generalist character like Annie becomes so good that she's added to everyone's team, and a specialist character like Beo who's really good at dealing damage, becomes wholly absent from high tournament placings due to his lack of answers. When characters have tools that are ridiculously good, they become answers, and players can make these their best answer in their own way.
Otherwise, as is apparent, there are the characters with the most answers that appear at every major and there are those that don't and are hardly seen beyond a rare QM set.

 

[Triviality]

When characters have tools that are ridiculously good, they become answers, and players can make these their best answer in their own way.

This is the skullgirls I want to play, I want a game with no wrong answers

 

[Swiftfox-Dash]

Just my two cents on this topic at hand:
As it currently stands obviously I would prefer if Bella's j.hp was a high at the cost of increased scaling if it is a combo starter. When the nerf was first put through, Bella did get universal ground throw conversions as sort of compensation, making her seem to focus more on low/throw. I would be okay with that but the only caveat I have is that in almost every situation, I'd rather for go the fast untechable ddrop or the more damaging combo from MGR. The throw conversion is neat, but I'd rather have her actual command grabs buffed. Being able to get pummel horse or such off of midscreen Ddrop Dynamo to combo may be a bit much but could be fun to try. Though I'd personally prefer to buff MGR. Decrease the deadzone and maybe, you know, give it throw invulnerability during the startup like every command grab in the game has (it currently only has them during the active frames).

Also on the topic of removing/changing tools, what are people's opinion on orange vial? Despite things like beo setplay, peacock left right mixups or headless fortune in the corner, I feel this is the most egregious tool in the game that makes you feel like you have no counterplay except just choosing an option at random (block low, block high, block crossup, mash throw, mash super) and praying you picked right. Oh and if you picked wrong you eat a full combo that has no damage scaling penality, no meter gain penalty, no combo stage penalty and loops right back into itself. Worse yet, say you get the hard read in one of the most disadvantageous states this game has, you're still delayed and are probably going to drop the combo and just get hit for your troubles. I don't feel Valentine is broken by any means, but I am curious how Val players might feel if this tool was altered to another effect (such as meter draining, locking out supers, removing enemy hitstop on supers, etc). However I know orange vial is a strategy that Val's have been using for years so that may be a bit extreme. But please make it go away if Val gets hit at least.

Oh right, in terms of peacock changes. Peacock feels great in beta. The item drop nerf recovery does affect some corner combos but I think Peacock's will be alright. I was thought the scaling on bombs when they interrupt enemy combos would stay as that seemed quite fair to keep. Oh and Peacock's increased vulnerable frames have definitely gotten me hit a few times, which means the change is doing something, and that's honestly perfectly fine. Letting people better throw/poke her out of teleport is completely fair. Though now I'm sad that she can't teleport on reaction to Annie beam super, but she has a tight window to use Lenny to block most of it for her.
I still petition to remove Road Roller, change the bounce, or tie it to her taunt ok thanks. Oh and nerf trios/buff duos

 

[Karibu]

This is the skullgirls I want to play, I want a game with no wrong answers

A game with no wrong answers is a game with no choices, when Pillar was the answer to every situation people hated it.

Decisions come from needs and needs come from flaws.

Peacock and Robo being able to play aggressive is cool and I want it to exist but it can't be on par with characters like Filia and Fortune, this makes them distinctive characters and make players that are able to execute that playstyle stand out.

And I'm not here asking to nerf all the strong tools that the game has, I think the to tier of the game is mostly fine and I just want for weaker characters to be helped out to be competitive, but I think this should be done following the characters identities and intended weaknesses.

 

[Triviality]

A game with no wrong answers is a game with no choices, when Pillar was the answer to every situation people hated it.

A game with no wrong answers is a game with limitless choices.\

Pillar is a bad example because it WAS bad (in that it was good and broken). Annie as a character in that state is no longer defined by her generally strong kit, but by this one options that superceeded anything the game has known as far as "Do this and just win." In her case, she had plenty of wrong answers simply put, because executing a gameplan or formulating and optimized combo or team strategy was incorrect almost as much as the persons incorporation of Pillar.

PIllar is still broken, and thats ok! but even Annie players who wanted her reverted agree that she's in a better place now than she was before.

Decisions come from needs and needs come from flaws.

Peacock and Robo being able to play aggressive is cool and I want it to exist but it can't be on par with characters like Filia and Fortune, this makes them distinctive characters and make players that are able to execute that playstyle stand out.

This is an excellent point that further elaborates on why its important that characters be strong enough to express themselves outside their intended "niche"

Peacock, Robo, Filia, and Fortune all have elements that can be applied for rushdown. Arguably, in this state of the game, there are points in a match where undoubtedly, the Zoners can rushdown opponents better than our games core rushdown characters. Its not consistent throughout the match, but undoubtedly,

A peacock with an approaching assists, an item drop charge, and 2 bombs on screen can rush you down much easier than just a normal filia

A robo with det mode, 20 seconds, who jsut casted level 3 missiles, is going to be able to get in much easier than fortune will

However, the mentioned statements above are high points in a match. Those characters reach that level of power and non-identical gameplan by applying their kits to benefit that playstyle. They don't HAVE to do this, a peacock who chooses not to approach can see the same amount of success as a peacock who goes in when her resources are created.

Not only this, but because of these elements, Peacock and Robo are incomparable in rushdown playstyle to Filia or Fortune, because the means of reaching a point where you can become a rushdown character, and the reasons it works are much different when you compare the characters.

A robo fortune in det mode can choose to zone, using quick beams over dashing in at mach 5. Both playstyles see success, and thats good. A peacock with her resources out is not encouraged to go in, but they can and thats awesome

Even filia is in a good spot because people apply her mobility to make her uncatchable. People can manipulate undizzy decay and the idea of the rushdown character "Running away" with the intent of going back in later is fascinating for a game like skullgirls, because it works.

And I'm not here asking to nerf all the strong tools that the game has, I think the to tier of the game is mostly fine and I just want for weaker characters to be helped out to be competitive, but I think this should be done following the characters identities and intended weaknesses.

We share this sentiment my friend, it's why I want 2016 strong characters returned to former glory, I want to see other other characters being brought up to better contend with what the community currently considers top tier characters.

 

[mpgame99]

I feel like “characters should be able to express themselves in multiple ways” and “this character had an unnecessary thing” are statements that can coexist.

I’m all for characters being able to play differently than intended and still have some success. I believe every character in SG except Beo can be played in different styles than intended and have good results. So to me going “but expression” when the weaker characters with less fire power are just as expressive doesn’t work.

Especially since you CAN still be an aggressive peacock and bomb+tele L/R mixups are definitely a thing, Bella still has 3 other ways to punish someone for downbacking, Fortune was still doing fortune things. But like at the end of the day we just have a fundamental disagreement on where we find comfortable power levels so I’ll just agree to disagree for now.

 

[BicepsAtMid]

By this logic isn't Bella's jHp Revert kinda pointless? what good for the character does "crouch block punish number 4" do?

I do agree that in the current spread of popular characters Bella does struggle(my main sparring partner is Silktail so I've been playing my fair share of Bella vs Robo), so why use any room for buff for the character to give her a redundant tool that doesn't help her.

I'm not good enough at the game to say if Bella CAN fight Robo or not, but if her MUs are too extreme then I would like something to help her deal with them.
I also personally think that jHP not being an overhead makes it such a hype tool to use to beat throws and non airtight lows.

I'm totally down for characters to have a lot of niche tools and ways to do things, Bella is my favourite character because she has so many tools with specific applications, but making jHP overhead again doesn't really expand her toolkit or help her so I would much rather have that power budget spent on something else if the team thinks the character needs help.

(PLEASE MAKE HER COMMAND GRABS CANCELLABLE INTO EACH OTHER LIKE A REKKA, SHE NEEDS IT /s)

I’m not sure if I completely understand your point about jhp revert being useless, jhp is a better overhead option then j2mp, it gives better conversion saves otg and isnt minus on block or punishable on land cancel. As ive stated before having multiple options to get a similar mix or beat a defensive option isnt rare in sg nor is it a problem. Has anyone ever complained about band having jmk, giant step, grab, and l train?

I dont think bella will ever be gettings buffs to fix her weaknesses in matchups nor do i really think it would be healthy. She is supposed to struggle in that regard i think. It would be nice if she could have a better time pre hit but id rather have a more consistent time post hit.

Bella jhp is a good button currently, I want to make it clear that im not denying that. It definitely has its uses but making it overhead again wouldn't be taking that use away at all or limiting her at all. Im not going to be less likely to use bella jhp if the scaling is back to what it was before. You can still use the button in the same ways.

 

[CaioLugon]

The problem with bella j.hp is that in the corner it just removes all thought from her pressure. It's huge, disjointed, almost impossible contest, gives you a free confirm and its plus to the point of allowing her to stay in by itself. If this button reverts back to hitting overhead on top of that we might as well bring back retail pillar too.

 

[DomiWizza]

I think we should fix bella teleporting to the ground before considering any sort of buff to her kit :P

I think bella is still a good and privileged character and she still has a fast overhead so to me, asking to revert that just seems like you don't want to lab conversions from j2MP into stronger mixups, and just want to be able to do whatever you want

I don't think every character should be able to do everything by themselves, it's more interesting to solve problems/weaknesses creatively with the many options you have to build your team, but im not saying that there aren't characters with issues that can't be entirely solved with assists, to me, eliza could use some positive changes.

 

[Karibu]

I just personally think that Bella's jHP is a fantastic tool that has a lot of different applications (low/ throw crush, combo, corner pressure) and giving it the overhead property back would only really crowd her other options out, if jHP is a high then why use j2MP?

This obviously would make Bella stronger but I don't think it would make her more fun or more expressive.

So I personally would prefer to put power in other parts of her kit (giving a purpose to grab bag, better hitbox on Horns etc etc)

 

[Stuff]

I have a hard time agreeing that "every playstyle works" because there's always the caveat of "but it's way better to just reset as it's the most rewarded option in the game" or "why bother when resetting is just the best, why put in extra effort for minimal gains" but hey that's just me, guy who hates doing resets or combos.

IDK I can't help but feel like the "free expression, everything works actually" crowd are generally people that do resets which is what gets rewarded and feels good to them but I'm sitting here going "damn I wish I could throw nails in less than a whole second plus" and to me I feel like you're missing out on actually winning if you opt for like no damage or resets and exclusively going for neutral situations (because I think those are more fun but it's less fun knowing that I will die from anything and my opponent won't, I don't feel rewarded for what I want to do and there's maybe three characters that do what I want and only two of those work well together (Val/Robo/PW[looking forward to B Dahlia if she's actually a zoner]). So in my eyes expression is limited by how most of these characters get made and what the game already rewards in the first place. Example: robo does more chip, everyone hates it because god forbid even though they take two touches like a champ, it gets removed, I cry.

Anyway, other than me complaining, what I really wanted to mention was that I also don't think everyone being broken and everyone being balanced are mutually exclusive to fun and expressive and "no wrong answers" that's sort've why I think the A B or C style can work and through limitations or lack there of it's the players that make the expression not so much the availability of the tools, it's about what the player does with what they got, that can be interesting with lack of tools for a kit with nothing but tools. Personally I find limitations make for more interesting characters as you work with your limitations rather than just be an amalgamation that can do anything because that can easily go one way and be just as boring. But again, that's just what I think, obviously we don't have to agree.

 

[Nuuance]

EDIT: Couldve went about communicating in a different way. I think it's ok to feel frustrated about certain things, but trying to convey them in a way till where your own opinions/misgivings dont cloud what youre trying to say can be tough. Anyways take it for what it is. Kind of chilled out a lot more since then & understand what happens happens...and the rest is upto me, but i do hope the game isnt afraid to try something new if the power & time to do so is there. thanks

Absolutely not meant to be a dramatic post or anything but i think I’m done. Uninstalled the game after the Eliza thing. it’s just a game & theres nothing really to be upset about but it’s like this has stopped being fun for a while.

we’re a community. And regardless of who’s annoyed by who or what disagreements, we share this. You guys are fucking sick. That’s why I stuck around & im sure many of you have…the people are dope. But like how are we supposed to keep that up when people don’t even wanna make allowances for the very people you need to enjoy the game? We can’t play this by ourselves…

its sad to me other games, even street fighter, get these pivotal updates but for some reason the game that’s supposed to take the limiter off in terms of expression is being hampered quite frankly by a fear of change & something unfamiliar.

im very happy for the thousands of hours & even the disagreements...but this is not the spirit of the game. At all.

things change. life itself & covid has showcased that. Who would’ve thought Ggpo and arcsys would get together, or Skullgirls even be alive again. It’s literally the hidden timeline. After all that’s happened it won’t die. But it genuinely feels like Sg ironically will die from refusing to evolve — despite every single other fg evolving & people eventually enjoying/liking it.

end of day much will be opinion so again…I’m sure someone could disregard this as whatever. But what I’ve said hasn’t been wrong. These talks continue to just circle & the dev/s will not acknowledge anything which is even more confusing. It feels like almost saying ‘you guys don’t know what you’re talking about, my vision is more informed than you guys.’ Obviously that’s not explicitly said, but it is in actions — for the past year. I don’t get it.

eliza Needs love. Annie needs love. Painwheel needs love. Squigly needs love. The fact that’s triggering to some is very sad to me. Or mentioning cerebella or fukua. it’d be different if these players were bad or not involved in the community supporting and helping people in good faith. I don’t always agree but I remember this isn’t just my game. And my feelings aren’t always right no matter my reasoning. It’d be nice if others could do the same.

overall it just feels like there’s a general disregard for anything that doesn’t immediately benefit his or herself & its stopped being fun for a while.

didnt mean for this to be a ‘serious’ post or whatnot & even so I don’t even see it that way, but like I alluded to…I just don’t care anymore. if things change id like to come back but I fear we’re almost past the point of no return & it’d probably be better to focus on other things. So all the best to everyone & no bad blood at any players. I just don’t like this right now. hopefully something in this post makes sense or makes people reconsider.

be well

 

[shuckle]

What?

 

[Triviality]

Absolutely not meant to be a dramatic post or anything but i think I’m done. Uninstalled the game after the Eliza thing. it’s just a game & theres nothing really to be upset about but it’s like this has stopped being fun for a while.

we’re a community. And regardless of who’s annoyed by who or what disagreements, we share this. You guys are fucking sick. That’s why I stuck around & im sure many of you have…the people are dope. But like how are we supposed to keep that up when people don’t even wanna make allowances for the very people you need to enjoy the game? We can’t play this by ourselves…

its sad to me other games, even street fighter, get these pivotal updates but for some reason the game that’s supposed to take the limiter off in terms of expression is being hampered quite frankly by a fear of change & something unfamiliar.

im very happy for the thousands of hours & even the disagreements...but this is not the spirit of the game. At all.

things change. life itself & covid has showcased that. Who would’ve thought Ggpo and arcsys would get together, or Skullgirls even be alive again. It’s literally the hidden timeline. After all that’s happened it won’t die. But it genuinely feels like Sg ironically will die from refusing to evolve — despite every single other fg evolving & people eventually enjoying/liking it.

end of day much will be opinion so again…I’m sure someone could disregard this as whatever. But what I’ve said hasn’t been wrong. These talks continue to just circle & the dev/s will not acknowledge anything which is even more confusing. It feels like almost saying ‘you guys don’t know what you’re talking about, my vision is more informed than you guys.’ Obviously that’s not explicitly said, but it is in actions — for the past year. I don’t get it.

eliza Needs love. Annie needs love. Painwheel needs love. Squigly needs love. The fact that’s triggering to some is very sad to me. Or mentioning cerebella or fukua. it’d be different if these players were bad or not involved in the community supporting and helping people in good faith. I don’t always agree but I remember this isn’t just my game. And my feelings aren’t always right no matter my reasoning. It’d be nice if others could do the same.

overall it just feels like there’s a general disregard for anything that doesn’t immediately benefit his or herself & its stopped being fun for a while.

didnt mean for this to be a ‘serious’ post or whatnot & even so I don’t even see it that way, but like I alluded to…I just don’t care anymore. if things change id like to come back but I fear we’re almost past the point of no return & it’d probably be better to focus on other things. So all the best to everyone & no bad blood at any players. I just don’t like this right now. hopefully something in this post makes sense or makes people reconsider.

be well

its just beta discussion take a breather friend

 

[Ikkisoad]

I understand that if everyone is broken the game could be more fun to play, and currently I have a blast with my team besides when my bypass doesn't have a hitbox. But if everyone gets good at everything there will be no space for the so called expression for neither the player nor the character.

If everyone is broken, people will just opt for the one that gives you the best for the best reward vs effort price. Which is why I think it is cool that characters should be kept on what we would call an archetype. If that wasn't in mind when balancing I don't think Robo's idj oh would be gone, even though it was gated by hard execution. It also gives space for creativity on team building.

And lets not forget that the current cast changed a lot throughout the years, and this season pass cycle brought new stuff to old characters, Brella is just around the corner and we will still get 2 new characters at least. So this thread is surely being looked out by the team that is behind the balance.

Spoiler: Broken vs Broken

 

[Makdeo]

I know it's played for memes at this point, but I still cannot mentally comprehend what prompted the Eliza changes.

-She has a fullscreen only, 37 frame startup cmd grab that is the most telegraphed move in the game, which also does 0 damage
-her dps are legitimately bad: H.dp only being useful in neutral to try and smoke some approaches or when eliza does sweep >h.dp in neutral.
L.dp is the only actual dp she has and its only ever used as a reversal and never an actual anti air move.
M.dp only exists as a meme for people that fuck up L.dp input by accident.
-the only move in normal form i would say is "good" is horus dive, and even then it can easily be played around if you're waiting for it.

the only thing that really made her still worthwhile to play was Sekhmet actually being a good character with her being able to flip out of her options on the ground, as well as having a legitimately good burst bait option, in the form of the H.axe backdash setup.

so good lord above, tell me what prompted Eliza no longer being able to backdash out of H.axe. Earlier in the thread, there were talks of old Bella J.hp, and how it was a "oppresive button". Although the context as to why that move was brought up is vastly different then what this comment is about, i still would like to use it a as proper example.
If we are to compare it to old Bella J.hp, or the multitude of different options that are considered as "Oppresive" in this game:

Was H.axe backdash REALLY that oppresive?
Was H.axe backdash REALLY such a good option for eliza, that it had to have been removed?

And, to add salt to the wound, what does she get in return? what buff does she get to compensate for such a damaging nerf?


Throne
ladies and gents, we did it, we really did it.
Throne: one of, if not the worst projectile in the game, now has an extra 2f of hitpause on hit ONLY, and has a slightly reduced hurtbox.



I know, and understand, that this comment is coming off as a rant more then anything, but I really wanted to emphasize why I believe that the changes she received are Nonsensical in design.

 

[SonicFox]

I still think characters like Peacock and Fortune need toning down. I don’t like this idea of “players are more likely to hold that” and then things like Pillar/Annie Damage or Bella J.HP get nerfed, while those two characters get nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

I am of the belief that if this parh continues, you will see the community lean towards only playing those characters. Remember, any nerfs for any character not those 2 are buffs for them.

If you ask me, for Peacock, I’d personally remove her DP entirely. It makes no sense a character that has literal combo breakers, minimal player interaction, IAD mixups, uncontestable safe setplay, god anti air, most annoying DP punish, God neutral control, Best post throw setup, fullscreen mixups, Top 1 Move in the game (Item Drop), and god tier zoning to not have SOME aspect of her toned down or straight up completely removed.

She’s simply put a rulebreaker and it makes no sense that she isn’t the focus of nerfs yet.

I am of the latter, and even if her DP was removed, she would still be considered top 1 still too. Characters have been getting nerfed for far less, so I really do think we need to discuss this character and what she’s actually allowed to do compared to everyone else.

In regards to Ms Fortune, I thought the beta nerf to J.LK was justified so I’m really surprised to see it get reverted.

 

[Yatoto]

I know it's played for memes at this point, but I still cannot mentally comprehend what prompted the Eliza changes.

-She has a fullscreen only, 37 frame startup cmd grab that is the most telegraphed move in the game, which also does 0 damage
-her dps are legitimately bad: H.dp only being useful in neutral to try and smoke some approaches or when eliza does sweep >h.dp in neutral.
L.dp is the only actual dp she has and its only ever used as a reversal and never an actual anti air move.
M.dp only exists as a meme for people that fuck up L.dp input by accident.
-the only move in normal form i would say is "good" is horus dive, and even then it can easily be played around if you're waiting for it.

the only thing that really made her still worthwhile to play was Sekhmet actually being a good character with her being able to flip out of her options on the ground, as well as having a legitimately good burst bait option, in the form of the H.axe backdash setup.

so good lord above, tell me what prompted Eliza no longer being able to backdash out of H.axe. Earlier in the thread, there were talks of old Bella J.hp, and how it was a "oppresive button". Although the context as to why that move was brought up is vastly different then what this comment is about, i still would like to use it a as proper example.
If we are to compare it to old Bella J.hp, or the multitude of different options that are considered as "Oppresive" in this game:

Was H.axe backdash REALLY that oppresive?
Was H.axe backdash REALLY such a good option for eliza, that it had to have been removed?

And, to add salt to the wound, what does she get in return? what buff does she get to compensate for such a damaging nerf?


Throne
ladies and gents, we did it, we really did it.
Throne: one of, if not the worst projectile in the game, now has an extra 2f of hitpause on hit ONLY, and has a slightly reduced hurtbox.



I know, and understand, that this comment is coming off as a rant more then anything, but I really wanted to emphasize why I believe that the changes she received are Nonsensical in design.

Upper Khat, at least from my experience, its not meant to be a actual DP, its more like a mid range poke and its really good at that function. At high level play, you will a see a lot of Eliza Players use H Upp. Khat to poke the opponent and get some nice conversions if it hits, and if misses or is blocked it will not be so easy to punish Eliza because of the distance.
About the Sekhmet changes i agree, the nerf was pretty uneeded because Sekhmet was already at constant loss if he not get to hit the opponent because of the life drain, and now you have lost a pretty good tool that sekhmet have to some minor buffs to Eliza. I think that is fine to buff Eliza but nerfing Sekhmet, but as it is now, i dont think that the buffs that Eliza got were enough to justify the nerfs. Dont get me wrong, c.hk getting armor a few frames earlier is a really nice buff and is something that eliza kinda needed, but the ability to link lights into heavies and to have her heavies be 3 frames faster is not something that eliza really needs at the moment.
I think some of the things that Eliza would benefit from would be changes to Lady Of Slaugther, making less weird for another character to dhc after LoS, A look at some of her buttons having the hurtbox appear before the hitbox, maybe the ability to use Nekh Bite as a dhc (For example: Sniper Shot -> Nekh Bite) by using her taunt and stuff like that.
Overall, i have hopes for future Eliza changes and i look forward to what the dev team has planned for her.

 

[Golbat]

I think we're gonna be seeing a lot of experiment with Bella j.HP in the future since that's guaranteed page clicks for skullheart.

Real change notes aside, I think the only think I'm antsy about is Star Power stars dealing chip damage. I'm not sure if this was intended to promote diversifying your choices while in star power, but giving Annie chip damage on top of the projectile angle/speed and whatever frame advantage seems a bit much as a tradeoff for the increased activation cost.

 

[ibubi]

If you ask me, for Peacock, I’d personally remove her DP entirely. [...]

[...] even if her DP was removed, she would still be considered top 1 still too.

This sort of feeling is everywhere when it comes to suggesting Peacock nerfs and I don't understand why. What's the point of coming to the negotiating table with nerfs that, by your own admission, would do nothing to put the character in line with the rest of the cast? Criticism of Peacock nerfs thus far by her players have never been about the nerfs making the character too weak or anything of the sort, but rather the opposite: they've made the character feel worse to play while also doing absolutely nothing to take her out of top 2, let alone top 3.
If this "she'd still be top 1 even with these changes" stuff is just a rhetorical flourish and you genuinely believe M Bang, or assist+tp 50/50s, or M George combo breaking are her strongest tools and she'd be normalized without them then say that. Otherwise, the community really has to start standing behind changes that actually stand a chance of toning her down, like removing or heavily lowering the viability of safe 50/50 item vortex, not behind changes that they already believe will be ineffective.

 

[Turvon]

The problem with bella j.hp is that in the corner it just removes all thought from her pressure. It's huge, disjointed, almost impossible contest, gives you a free confirm and its plus to the point of allowing her to stay in by itself. If this button reverts back to hitting overhead on top of that we might as well bring back retail pillar too

The problem with bella j.hp is that in the corner it just removes all thought from her pressure. It's huge, disjointed, almost impossible contest, gives you a free confirm and its plus to the point of allowing her to stay in by itself. If this button reverts back to hitting overhead on top of that we might as well bring back retail pillar too.

just land cancel her

 

[Triviality]

holy shit i totally forgot you could just upback land cancel against her j.hp as an option LMAOOOOO

 

[mpgame99]

I guess I’m just confused cause j.hp isn’t why the character is falling out of meta. She just has bad MUs against the current top tiers and j.hp being an overhead again wouldn’t really do anything about that. I’m not like totally against her getting some buffs but I just don’t see why j.hp would be the point you would focus on if you wanted her to have something.

Also I wanna come out and say that everything I’ve been saying has been assuming that pea/fortune are obviously gonna get turned down at some point. If they’re really just gonna let them rock as war criminals then do whatever to everyone else lmao

 

[Turvon]

I just personally think that Bella's jHP is a fantastic tool that has a lot of different applications (low/ throw crush, combo, corner pressure) and giving it the overhead property back would only really crowd her other options out, if jHP is a high then why use j2MP?

This obviously would make Bella stronger but I don't think it would make her more fun or more expressive.

So I personally would prefer to put power in other parts of her kit (giving a purpose to grab bag, better hitbox on Horns etc etc)

j2mp was the faster option at times, especially while falling close to the ground and could crossup but it isnt very good for instant overheads because its minus, with jhp being a mid now her only overhead option is minus which is pretty bad in a game where everyone else who has an instant overhead is plus on it.

 

[Turvon]

can we go back to nerfing Ms. Fortune's dp? its kinda nuts that she has a fully invluln dp thats also a godlike movement option that leads to more godlike movement options(her airdash and double jump which tbh is pretty crazy a puppet character with insane pressure and movement already outside of her air options in her dp and her run that low profiles everything like her has both but whatever)

 

[Triviality]

can we go back to nerfing Ms. Fortune's dp? its kinda nuts that she has a fully invluln dp thats also a godlike movement option that leads to more godlike movement options(her airdash and double jump which tbh is pretty crazy a puppet character with insane pressure and movement already outside of her air options in her dp and her run that low profiles everything like her has both but whatever)

I kinda think her ability to stall her place in the air with gato is the point to focus at, I frequently find that to be the point of strength when she comes in at you from the air.

"Lmao my dp is a movement option" was always a meme to me and is still beatable

 

[dekillsage]

Land cancel on that j.hp was weird cuz you could still get elbow'd or j.lp'd for trying it

You can replace the J.hp conversation with Eliza axe back dash or double L lugar. I think players just don't want to see characters who aren't even the best get nerfs as compensation for buffs, or even just nerfs in general. Especially since a few of the options that have been toned down and removed have been options we've dealt with for years. It feels like trolling.

I would also rather see Peacock and Fortune not get toned down because I really have enjoyed how powerful characters in retail are right now. (fortunes 2lk loops on headless is a rule breaker that may end us all, but I want to see it more).


Umbrella

I'm disappointed with the Umbrella changes. The changes to assists feel like trolling. The payoff for setting up salt grinder will never surpass the utility of other assists like copter, beam, dp assist, brass etc. I feel the same way about her other assists that need ravenous to function. She went from being a great teammate to I hope you play Peacock or else run another teammate.

Cyrax bubble in the previous beta is imo how it should be. The fact it didn't interact with other things made it unique and interesting. It gave her an approach that wasn't too powerful because dash blocking into push block does exist in this game. At the moment it just loses to every armor assist and now I really can't stop zoners lol. It popping my M bubble is also super meh.

I liked how her damage and hunger worked in prepatch more. Imo it was perfect then, now it feels like too much set up for reward that's good but... idk I can just iad j.lk with Filia twice instead, this is a bit much.

Reflector super being projectile invincible is cool.

I really hope she doesn't release this way! If she was released the way she was before I really thought she would be a huge game changer and important pick for a lot of people. I don't feel that way anymore.

 

[Triviality]

Especially since a few of the options that have been toned down and removed have been options we've dealt with for years. It feels like trolling.

 

[Liam]

I humbly request we keep Umbrella discussion out of this thread - I moved over every post that was Umbrella focused that I could find to it, but some posts containing feedback for Umbrella and not-Umbrella can't easily be dealt with:

Umbrella Alpha Gameplay Discussion Thread

To keep tech, questions, bugs, feedback, and miscellaneous discussion about Umbrella's ongoing gameplay development in one accessible location for HVS, here is the the ordained Umbrella thread. >>>>> This is NOT a thread to discuss balance changes or feedback for characters other than Umbrella.

skullheart.com

 

[CaioLugon]

Other than the obvious head messing up combos I'd really wanna know what people propose for nerfing fortune. She's always been a character that's been very underrepresented and imo current retail bella, fortune and double are the best standards for what we should be aiming for with character strength.

 

[fayestra]

Real change notes aside, I think the only think I'm antsy about is Star Power stars dealing chip damage. I'm not sure if this was intended to promote diversifying your choices while in star power, but giving Annie chip damage on top of the projectile angle/speed and whatever frame advantage seems a bit much as a tradeoff for the increased activation cost.

Seconding this. Install pressure was already a "pushblock or die" option that gave a lot of characters a hard time, and the chip damage buff feels like a step in the wrong direction. I could definitely see blockstring pressure being optimized to deal obscene amounts of safe chip, especially for checkmate scenarios. There's also the group of players who didn't like committing to install since you had to spend meter to end it, which this update isn't doing them any favors. It doesn't add any interesting options either, just making her existing ones stronger, so it's likely not gonna win over anyone who didn't already like her install. (imo her install was already plenty strong before, just in a way that a lot of people weren't interested in)

 

[ProfNJ]

It seems apparent that even outside a bit of animosity towards Pea/MF's (hopefully temporary) reversions, a lot of the points of contention in this thread stem from there not being a more direct dive into what problems people have with their characters. I don't think that there is a clear apprehension towards characters like Bella getting some kind of help, or the aforementioned two being toned down in some way. Despite that, it might make better conversation to try and figure out new, if not more effective ways to tackle the underlying issues. In order to do that though, said issues could stand to be clarified.

If the actual issue is that Bella has problems dealing with pushblock on her own, are there other ways to tackle that issue besides looking at jHP? Maybe we can look at giving new uses to some of her more filler/underutilized moves. Give L LnL more frame advantage, so that it fills a different role than its armored counterparts by keeping her in against defending opponents or something idk. If the argument is that she already has enough tools to open you up, maybe we can look at increasing the reward off the things she has already? Of course, maybe some just want to do the thing they used to be able to do, and that's very understandable. Personally I'm cool with Bella jHP being overhead, that shit is fun.

Speaking of doing things I used to, I'd really like to see Sekhmet Axe get the backdash cancel back. The skeleton's options on offense are pretty linear anyway, and having a way to make the axe somewhat safe (and only against some characters) and/or having a pretty nice way to bait burst did not seem egregious enough to feel like said linearity is being undermined.

Honestly, on some level I'm more interested in giving skeleton more options, as unlike the summons Sekhmet feels like the most unique and interesting tool Eliza has. While the version of Eliza we have scratches the mode change itch quite a bit, it'd be cool to further lean into using the skeleton in tandem with the lady.

That being said, as it's way more likely she isn't getting even more new moves, I'd like the LK and HK versions to feel as useful as Horus does. Please consider Throne allowing OTG pickup and having a friendlier launch angle, so that it's more flexible on point and assist. It's hard for me to think of a change to command throw that isnt cut the scaling and let Eliza do damage off it but it could also use some help.

I don't play Beo myself so I'm speaking from the perspective from someone fighting against him/watching him in action, but that character in his current one-note state doesn't make sense when stacked up against the rest of the cast. He feels like a sitting duck unless he is in his single dream situation, in a way that no other character does, and even after the taunt changes he feels far too reliant on Band. I'd defer to those who play the character on any possible changes, but he just seems to have no other way of being played outside of Taunt (preferably) mid-combo > spend hype in combo > kill or HKD and repeat, with any amount of the match spent not directly in the opponent's face being a tragedy. Though it has already undergone testing, I still wonder if giving him different ways to use hype if not changing how hype works could be done without completely alienating his current playerbase. Regardless, to me there's a certain level of flexibility and expression in how people play every character except Beo, and his current iteration feels like it limits him from being alongside them.

It's 2AM and I'm probably rambling but I hope this isn't too hard to read. To close out I'd also like for us to consider if there's a way to touch Item Drop to make Pea's vortex less oppressive without removing the vortex entirely or smoking it as a zoning/combo tool.