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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

ibubi said:
This sort of feeling is everywhere when it comes to suggesting Peacock nerfs and I don't understand why. What's the point of coming to the negotiating table with nerfs that, by your own admission, would do nothing to put the character in line with the rest of the cast? Criticism of Peacock nerfs thus far by her players have never been about the nerfs making the character too weak or anything of the sort, but rather the opposite: they've made the character feel worse to play while also doing absolutely nothing to take her out of top 2, let alone top 3.
If this "she'd still be top 1 even with these changes" stuff is just a rhetorical flourish and you genuinely believe M Bang, or assist+tp 50/50s, or M George combo breaking are her strongest tools and she'd be normalized without them then say that. Otherwise, the community really has to start standing behind changes that actually stand a chance of toning her down, like removing or heavily lowering the viability of safe 50/50 item vortex, not behind changes that they already believe will be ineffective.
My belief is that at the very minimum, she removing her DP makes it so she becomes glass cannon. She can keep her broken tools in neutral and keep doing the things that peacock players find “fun” about her, but now when I am RIGHT, and when I am in, I get to maul her.

You’ll already see a tremendous amount of patience due to the guarantee that once a player is in, it’s party time, meaning the nerf is working effectively. Wanting to nerf anything more than that is at the discretion of the devs or whatever the community pleads, but we still have to come together to address this character’s actual issues.

I am only addressing one of plenty that I think a change would already be a huge detriment. Yes certain characters by design just end up top tier, and I think it’s hard to take away too many things without ruining the character, so I can accept her being top tier if changes are made that allows me to contest her more.

We need to start SOMEWHERE. Lowering her defensive capabilities I think is a good start for what her tools on offense allow for.

Taking her out of top 1 or 2 is not my interest. It’s normalizing some of her tools compared to what she is allowed to do that interests me. I’m a firm believer that the only way she leaves those spots is if another DLC character shows up, or some nerf so large renders here absolutely garbage and I don’t think anyone wants that.

DP being gone will make all the difference in almost every matchup while keeping her still like “Peacock.”
 
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I'm going to start by saying that in terms of balance I'm coming back around to my pre-2020 opinion that skullgirls is a very well balanced game and no character is incredibly OP, even if peacock had all of her nerfs reverted she wouldn't ruin the game for me.
The discussion around bella jHP does kinda feel like some people forget what it was like. Bella jHP wasn't a "just do X lmao" to deal with it kind of move, bella could play around your options very well. The two things I've seen people say for the ways to deal with it are land cancel it and pushblock it.
As a reset it was common for there to not be a big enough gap to land cancel it and the same is true after a blocked jHP if the bella had good execution. It also barely mattered if you did land cancel it, it was only -10 with pushback and bella recovered in the air. Bella jHP jump back jHP required a frame perfect land cancel jab from fortune to punish otherwise it would whiff.
Pushblocking jHP still left Bella plus and reasonable close, obviously you could play around Bella's options after I'm not trying to say that Bella won just by making you block jHP once but it still left her at advantage. Dash 2LK/MGR both would reach or jump in with jMP+assist if they tried to get out by jumping forward even without the assist air to air jMP would leave you from +2~13 point blank on block depending on how late you pressed it. I also remember it giving her a post hit vortex on par with doubles except when you got hit by bella you died. All this to say that Bella might be okay with all of this back and if she does get it back I'll just hold that no problem but it was a significant nerf and it would be a significant buff. Here's a quick video with examples for some of this.

on a much less fleshed out opinion I think that we need time with changes, the last ~3 months to play with the changes actually felt like enough time to get a feel for what they did. I've been looking at some old tier lists and tier list discussions from between the 2017 2nd encore+ patch and 2020 that I could find and it makes it clear that the community opinions on which characters are the strongest and weakest can change even without any changes to the characters, I don't want 3 years between patches but looking back it's nice to keep in mind that having more time with a patch might change how you feel about specific parts of it.
 
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Just wanted to give my opinion on balancing SG. I'm pretty new at the game, I've played for a little less than a year now so take this with a grain of salt.
The main reason I like versus style games is having characters with hella dumb and broken tools, I think playing strong characters is very fun.
Therefore I would like it if no one was nerfed, I would rather every character be at the level of Peacock and Fortune. I think those two characters are very fun the way they are. I would love it if the weaker characters got buffed to get in line with the top tiers.
 
Im not really a fan of the idea of completely removing characters moves, especially Vanilla/Encore characters.

Just make MP Bang worse, why is it still punishable**** and not just punishable.

Ill post my overall thoughts about the meta/changes eventually.

Also Bella can have Jhp be an overhead or not, its not going to change her mu chart or her actual problems. She doesn't need 2 instant overheads to open people up
 
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SonicFox said:
My belief is that at the very minimum, she removing her DP makes it so she becomes glass cannon. She can keep her broken tools in neutral and keep doing the things that peacock players find “fun” about her, but now when I am RIGHT, and when I am in, I get to maul her.
I really just wish it was as minus as it was when it got nerfed the first time. Very difficult to punish at tip range, especially when the Peacock can just autopilot cancel into Lenny at that range and then you kind of have to guess if you're even allowed to punish, because they can just bang again if you're not in range.

I've never really cared she had a strong reversal, just that blocking it at certain ranges leads into a guess a lot of the time.

In terms of Eliza, Eliza is the strongest she's ever been right now in my opinion. 5hp xx backflip being snap punishable was a reasonable nerf, and the guessing game is still kind of rigged in Eliza's favor with skeleton if you factor just neutral jumping after 5hp as another layer to skeleton mix. The buffs to 5hp/5hk and throne are extremely substantial and I wish people would spend more time with them rather than just saying the character is still bad.

As a final note I'd be somewhat...cautious about saying we want to return characters to their former glory, and totally unerf them or whatever. The problem with this is the question then becomes how far do you want to go back? A lot of you weren't around for the SDE days.


If people want this version of Fortune back I'm all for it, but overall, Skullgirls has become a better game normalizing characters, not a worse one, especially if you look at the game's history. I don't think any character is really getting kneecapped with small, reasonable nerfs the way people to seem to think they are. Furthermore, I could sit here and argue that these Fortune changes are "less fun" and "make the character less interesting to play" but that's not necessarily a good argument for them to come back.

If you make everyone broken, it doesn't necessarily make the game better. SG's design goal was and always was to be BALANCED mvc2 (with some guilty gear dna in there). Most of the design and balance decisions have historically been made with this in mind; it's not uncommon for powerful characters to be normalized, in fact the opposite, it is how the game has worked for 8+ years.

edit: KhaosMuffins is the goat. @KhaosMuffins please come back king
 
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Buffs to make Eliza more effective in team building, and increase the viability and utility of her worst specials:
Lady of Slaughter needs to wall splat so you can pick up in corner if you have preserved OTG or Crimson Scourge becomes a DHC capable super.
Throne needs to launch towards the origin or straight up and not have a blue bounce, for the least amount of change to make it as effective as possible on hit.
Sewer grab needs to do damage or not scale the combo as much as it does even after the fix.
 
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Thanks for all the hard work thus far, Liam and co! Programming might as well be magic to the average player, so I just want to say that the degree of work you're putting into this game is acknowledged and appreciated.

There's a lot of discussion in this thread that is naive to the constraints, resources and timelines you're working with, as I'm sure you're already acutely aware of. I'm getting flashbacks to a surreal meeting in my career where a product rep tried to dictate the implementation details of a distributed network to a dev ops team coordinating a significant scaling project. If anything, the additional effort you've given above and beyond the call of duty may have magnified a community-level misunderstanding of the capacity available to undertake the changes I see being discussed. I'm blown away (in a positive sense) that the dev team took on extensive reworks to Eliza's resource mechanics and implemented roster-wide dash buffer changes (an ergonomic change that has really helped my hands out), all while continuing dev work on the season pass.

I hope that you're able to protect and preserve your passion for the game while simultaneously developing it. It's a lot to deal with while working the often gruelling hours associated with dev-work, particularly when it's a project you feel a strong sense of obligation towards. The roots of the dev-team as deeply embedded in the community and "one of us" adds an additional dimension that I don't envy, alongside exposure to end-user feedback!

Thanks for all the phenomenal work you've put out! Your vision and direction for the game has all of my confidence.
 
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Players dislike fighting peacock on a level far beyond any other character. If the goal is to balance around making the game fun to play, she's the only problem character in the game. She's disliked across all skill levels so it's not because she's a scrub killer. I'm not sure how the team chooses to balance the game, but I hope they aren't just basing it on beta threads. Only the most passionate people that can tolerate endless arguing are going to contribute, so it's very biased.

300 participant sample

Question: Peacock is frustrating to fight against
Answers: X-Axis (Likert scale)

Frustration with Peacock.png



This one sums the results of "______ is frustrating to fight against" for each of the characters.

Sum Frustration.png



Fukua is the second most frustrating character, for comparison.

Frustration with Fukua.png



Here's the level of frustration by how often people play.

Peacock by Play Freq.png

I agree with sonic that making her defense worse is the way to go, but I'm not a subject matter expert.
 
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Bookworm said:
Players dislike fighting peacock on a level far beyond any other character. If the goal is to balance around making the game fun to play, she's the only problem character in the game. She's disliked across all skill levels so it's not because she's a scrub killer. I'm not sure how the team chooses to balance the game, but I hope they aren't just basing it on beta threads. Only the most passionate people that can tolerate endless arguing are going to contribute, so it's very biased.
I'm going to be honest with you chief. Nobody is going to take this data seriously until you disclose where your sample size came from, nor will they take it seriously when the questions asked are extremely broad.

It's not a revelation that beginner and intermediate players do not enjoy fighting Peacock (in the same way, these same players also usually despise Beo/Band). Likewise, data saying a character is "unfun" to fight against isn't necessarily helpful as it doesn't really ascertain what the problem is with the character and if characters are able to deal with these issues.
 
Random passing thoughts after playing beta and skimming the thread:

- Annie install feels too expensive to want to use now. Maybe reduce the cost of using attacks a tad?
- Peacock should probably have kept the bomb damage scaling when trading
- Peacock probably shouldn't have DP removed entirely but it should be as punishable as any other uppercut DP
- I'm pretty indifferent if Cerebella jHP got overhead back or not
- I think it would be neat(tm) if Cerebella's grab bag did something more
- Maybe hot take but I'm fine with Ms.Fortune as she is. Only thing that bothers me is head occasionally messing up combos when you hit her
- Don't really think Sekhmet needed the nerf but don't care too much in either direction
- One of the things that makes Eliza an awkward teammate IMO is how Lady of Slaughter ends. I think maybe having it end lower to the ground to DHC into other stuff more easily and maybe having it wallsplat to pick up from when you DHC into it would be neat.
 
hamie96 said:
I'm going to be honest with you chief. Nobody is going to take this data seriously until you disclose where your sample size came from, nor will they take it seriously when the questions asked are extremely broad.

It's not a revelation that beginner and intermediate players do not enjoy fighting Peacock (in the same way, these same players also usually despise Beo/Band). Likewise, data saying a character is "unfun" to fight against isn't necessarily helpful as it doesn't really ascertain what the problem is with the character and if characters are able to deal with these issues.
Convenience sample from seven discords including the official one.
www.nicholasdayhse.com

Skullgirls Survey: Purpose and Methods (and Biases)

Fighting games are a really interesting genre when it comes to user experience research. There's so many small decisions you have to make even while you aren't "doing" anything, you have to understand exactly what your opponent is capable of at any moment, there's demanding techniques that need...
www.nicholasdayhse.com www.nicholasdayhse.com
www.nicholasdayhse.com

Peacock: Villain or Anti Hero?

Sitting down at my computer, overwhelmed by the massive data set I somehow was able to collect, I had to think about what I should look at first. I have a lot of things I want to look at, but I the answer was obvious: Peacock.The Skullgirls BogeymanGoing into this I knew Peacock was by far the...
www.nicholasdayhse.com www.nicholasdayhse.com
 
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the eternal solopeacock here.

Just make her DP minus whatever should be enough to punish her.

That should be enough of a nerf for team peacocks and wouldnt affect solo peacocks that much, because it's super punishable as a solo peacock.
 
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The only change I would wanna see being done is can Double please have her L Luger tool back? From what I heard, you used to be able to perform L Luger into Dash c. LK.
 
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ELIZA

Hi its me sinclair i have only 1 thing to say about eliza and that this patch was everything I wanted. The first patch was something I wanted then this patch was something I was asking for FOREVER. Eliza is in a great spot. I still consider posting a mini qol post for her to make her even more viable in high tournament level gameplay but I wont do that today because cocktail of medication makes my brain not formulate sentences that make sense unless i put all my power in it >.< Anyway I wanted to add that the 5h backdash being gone isn't too bad for eliza. You can still do a lot of bullshit with sekh like instant jm which they have to do a frame perfect throw to punish you or just respect it.

Well yeah thanks Liam and team for adding these changes. It's like a dream come true. I played some really nice high-level games vs EU and NA and it felt very very smooth and good. 5HK change (something I wanted forever) makes it feel like i need to commit less to big chungus super minus moves, I get to dip my toes in the water before I commit to a move with eliza (like horus or khat). 2HK made peacock gameplay feel smoother and approaching robo was made way way easier. The addition of nekbite feels like I can punish everyone who tries to counter me too late or messes up slightly (like sweeping me, i get to counter sweep with nekbite which is so satisfying). Oh yeah, kara l spiral mix is SO easy now. Insane. Thank you so much! I do feel like these changes are the right thing for Eliza and I can only wonder what other great things are in store for her. There are still some mini changes i'd like to see that could potentially make her tournament viable but i'll make a post about that some other day....

Despite the chaos i hope everyone is doing well here and is healthy and living a great life.

TLDR; very happy with the eliza changes. Sekh still gets to do a lot of bullshit despite the 5h backdash being gone. 5HK change opened the doors to being less committed to moves that could cause me my life if i guess wrong.
 
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Swiftfox-Dash said:
[why is orange vial]

I just wanted to put a little more support into this, but not necessarily in the "remove it from the game" because it's a genuinely interesting concept, but a general rework. I've mentioned prior that level 2/3 (lag) vial should ABSOLUTELY go away on burst hit. If you fucked up and I'm right, I should not stay penalized. It's my personal belief that vials are in a position where they are marginally too strong when built around a good composition, but otherwise fine when not. I don't think she sacrifices much to build vials. I'm not asking the godlike neutral character to give up a tool in exchange to keep her incredible resource mechanic. I would rather the resource to be taken down a notch. Forgoing orange vial for green vial to take advantage of the undizzy drain + ability to maximize scaling? Damn. This character rules.


I'm resigned to M Bang being a funky little nuisance (I do agree that a more punishable M bang felt fair). While we can't prevent it from hitting behind her at times (Dual Destinies double j.HP clip here), I think it shouldn't have a wallbounce. Why does she get a combo from it?
 
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Swiftfox-Dash said:
Just my two cents on this topic at hand:
As it currently stands obviously I would prefer if Bella's j.hp was a high at the cost of increased scaling if it is a combo starter. When the nerf was first put through, Bella did get universal ground throw conversions as sort of compensation, making her seem to focus more on low/throw. I would be okay with that but the only caveat I have is that in almost every situation, I'd rather for go the fast untechable ddrop or the more damaging combo from MGR. The throw conversion is neat, but I'd rather have her actual command grabs buffed. Being able to get pummel horse or such off of midscreen Ddrop Dynamo to combo may be a bit much but could be fun to try. Though I'd personally prefer to buff MGR. Decrease the deadzone and maybe, you know, give it throw invulnerability during the startup like every command grab in the game has (it currently only has them during the active frames).

Also on the topic of removing/changing tools, what are people's opinion on orange vial? Despite things like beo setplay, peacock left right mixups or headless fortune in the corner, I feel this is the most egregious tool in the game that makes you feel like you have no counterplay except just choosing an option at random (block low, block high, block crossup, mash throw, mash super) and praying you picked right. Oh and if you picked wrong you eat a full combo that has no damage scaling penality, no meter gain penalty, no combo stage penalty and loops right back into itself. Worse yet, say you get the hard read in one of the most disadvantageous states this game has, you're still delayed and are probably going to drop the combo and just get hit for your troubles. I don't feel Valentine is broken by any means, but I am curious how Val players might feel if this tool was altered to another effect (such as meter draining, locking out supers, removing enemy hitstop on supers, etc). However I know orange vial is a strategy that Val's have been using for years so that may be a bit extreme. But please make it go away if Val gets hit at least.

Oh right, in terms of peacock changes. Peacock feels great in beta. The item drop nerf recovery does affect some corner combos but I think Peacock's will be alright. I was thought the scaling on bombs when they interrupt enemy combos would stay as that seemed quite fair to keep. Oh and Peacock's increased vulnerable frames have definitely gotten me hit a few times, which means the change is doing something, and that's honestly perfectly fine. Letting people better throw/poke her out of teleport is completely fair. Though now I'm sad that she can't teleport on reaction to Annie beam super, but she has a tight window to use Lenny to block most of it for her.
I still petition to remove Road Roller, change the bounce, or tie it to her taunt ok thanks. Oh and nerf trios/buff duos
LMFAO
 
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I feel like throwing in my 2 cents before the next PS4 update. With the exception of the new character I don't feel like much should change about the game as a whole. What I mean by this is it would be great if old characters got some changes to help them play their game more consistently but I don't want them to gain new tools and play styles. For example I would love to see PW get things like higher hitstun on normals to make stray hits easier to convert and do the big damage she is known for but I don't want her to get some crazy new property on 236H that lets her all of a sudden start throwing it out at neutral as an AA. At the moment I feel that most character are in a good spot balance wise and we don't need to go out of our way to make every character work with every team.

What I think should be talked about more is the current assist meta streamline team building. Like it's cool that there are some assists that can pull a missed matched duo together but when assists like Beam and Brass completely invalidate 90% of the rest of the assists in the game there is little reason not to use them. I honestly don't know the best way to solve this problem. I may just be over reacting and missing some counter play that makes this point meaningless but it's something I don't see discussed often.

Last note is on Peacock M Bang. IMO this move is fundamentally flawed. Ignoring the fact that a zoner having a reversal that is difficult to punish and gives them a combo on hit is pretty crazy this move is simply too fast. From start to finish this move is 50 frames giving you 1 second to react and go for a punish if it's even possible. Now if I'm going to be honest offline this isn't much of an issue as with enough practice you can be ready to deal with it. The problem lies with online and more specifically with roll back netcode. When your connection is not super clean or if there is any lag when Peacock goes for M Bang you have even less time to react to the move and deal with it accordingly. If my memory is correct this move was not a reversal in vanilla so it makes sense why it is so fast but it doesn't make sense for it to stay this way given how different it is from other reversals. Take Fukua for example, she has a very similar reversal to Peacock with even 1 frame less time to punish but no one complains because she is almost always in range for a punish and you have a lot more time to react to the move happening. I really liked the last change we tried for M Bang because it slows it down enough for you to see it happen but a remember hearing complaints that the move was too slow to use anymore. So this may all sound contradictory to what I said earlier about not changing the old character but a zoner having the most frustrating reversal in the game is something that should be looked at.

Ok I'm done rambling. Thanks for reading and now I get one joke. Give Filia the Tommy Gun her uncle mafia guy uses in that one Marie special, it would be funny. (Or give it to B.D I just want to shoot the gun)
 
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Swiftfox-Dash said:
Also on the topic of removing/changing tools, what are people's opinion on orange vial? Despite things like beo setplay, peacock left right mixups or headless fortune in the corner, I feel this is the most egregious tool in the game that makes you feel like you have no counterplay except just choosing an option at random (block low, block high, block crossup, mash throw, mash super) and praying you picked right. Oh and if you picked wrong you eat a full combo that has no damage scaling penality, no meter gain penalty, no combo stage penalty and loops right back into itself. Worse yet, say you get the hard read in one of the most disadvantageous states this game has, you're still delayed and are probably going to drop the combo and just get hit for your troubles. I don't feel Valentine is broken by any means, but I am curious how Val players might feel if this tool was altered to another effect (such as meter draining, locking out supers, removing enemy hitstop on supers, etc). However I know orange vial is a strategy that Val's have been using for years so that may be a bit extreme. But please make it go away if Val gets hit at least.

Mike retained this design philosophy on resources vs resources. Vials don't go away cause Valentine spent time to acquire those resources. And so to get rid of this resource, you yourself must spend a resource, Its the reason that Snap and Supers get rid of the poison on your character but just hitting her doesn't

To that regard its the same philosophy that Bomb's don't go away for peacock on hit, or fukuas love dart, or robo's head projectiles, these characters rely on the time and space they give up in neutral to set these up. Its hard to say this for Peacock though since setting up a bomb is a great resoruce that takes little effort

That or why Squigly's Level 3 went away if you hit her with super at one point, but I think that got changed to snap?

However there is inconsistencies here, I guess if we wanted to maintain this mantra one could make it so parasoul could keep tears on screen after she gets hit, (I already kind of deal with this on tear assist so I don't mind fighting a point parasoul with this change)

And there should be resources that got rid of Bombs on hit as well, like I wouldn't be opposed to bombs going away if you hit peacock with a super or snap, but there are certain matchups where people rely on trading with bomb for favorable trades
(Para sniper shot)
(Beo Arm)

I think the big precedent with a change to cyclable resources would be Band taunt. If Val cycling assists for free vials that loop into itself is such a problem, just bar her from using vials she loads in the same combo she loads them,

but personally thats too funky and people HATED that for Beo hype (Which would have been better for him imo but he needed more stuff)

The val matchup is a hard one and Cloud actually knows how to play around peacock, especially with his corner pressure (See Evo Online)
Personally I don't want orange vial nerfed at all, I'm gonna conquer that fucking playstyle one day, watch
 
This PROBABLY wouldn't hit in this balance cycle, but if teleport + assist is here to stay, would it be possible to get some sort of visual indicator of which teleport she is doing so it's not constantly a guess to punish teleport + assist? If I could see the hole she's GOING to appear in addition to the one she's going into, I feel like people would complain a lot less, because they would at least know if it would cross up. I'm OK with the community having to develop counterplay to stuff instead of complaining but all you have is an audio cue that might not be there when it comes to play on a PS4 with 0 audio in a tournament.

She gets to keep the option that is now cemented as a thing she can do, it just becomes much more reasonable to develop counterplay for.
 
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FuLLBLeeD said:
This PROBABLY wouldn't hit in this balance cycle, but if teleport + assist is here to stay, would it be possible to get some sort of visual indicator of which teleport she is doing so it's not constantly a guess to punish teleport + assist? If I could see the hole she's GOING to appear in addition to the one she's going into, I feel like people would complain a lot less, because they would at least know if it would cross up. I'm OK with the community having to develop counterplay to stuff instead of complaining but all you have is an audio cue that might not be there when it comes to play on a PS4 with 0 audio in a tournament.

She gets to keep the option that is now cemented as a thing she can do, it just becomes much more reasonable to develop counterplay for.
Have something stick out of the hole she creates, like a little wile e. coyote sign with flavor text
 
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I'd personally like the removal of peacocks teleports, Instead it could be 2 of those punch teleports that hit low,H could be fullscreen,M mid and L could be that tracking bomb she has, Id also give her back the ability to use 3 bombs. Peacock as a character already has good movement tools and the ability to just escape options with her teleport and create disgusting mixup situations off it are pretty disgusting, Furthermore Doubling down on her zoner aspect seems like a really nice space to place her cause It could make new characters that have strong zoning tools not get overshadowed by peacock for having said better neutral tools,
Ms is kinda nuts I agree with her movement options post dp, Maybe locking double jump post dp would help alleviate some of the air control she has and can help you as the opponent predict her movement a tad more in the neutral, Id let her retain the air dash for zoning, Just feels like Fortune forces scambles more then the rest of the cast due to this and her fast lp, But perhaps scramble queen was her design space

This might sound wacky, But Can we please get the return of a singular M shadow for fukua with the prerequisite of taunt?This could also b a thing for Pw to give Full nail storage for one attack or one armored pinion in neutral Idk but It could help. Using taunt to return a move back for a singular use or upgrade a singular neutral option needs to be explored more especially for characters that are lacking in neutral, Im looking at Beo when I say that cause man, He needs like a cage match super or something that works like sing, Im just shooting in the dark/ farting in the wind but you get the point its unexplored space.

This change would really do all that much initially although I suspect some of us may route stuff or try to make our usage of taunt in neutral safe. Anyways it limits her old m shadow as a neutral tool, While simultaneously giving her more options in both punish and neutral game. Eliza needs help, Im not sure what can be done about her besides giving sekhmet a couple more options maybe an anti-air grab or something Idk, they just need help.

No cap- I think orange vial sucks and should work like Modok Jaming Bomb in umvc3, I come from marvel 3 online, so like the lag vials really not that bad depending on how good your yomi is haha
 
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Annie dp assist is still too strong, its really big and covers a large chunk of the screen, does good damage and it is neigh impossible to stuff it. give it the beat extend treatment where it gets extra vulnerable frames
 
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I think Annie DP is actually fine as-is, it's very similar to updo and has the same weaknesses and beatable in the same ways as updo however the only thing I'd say is that the carry is kind of ridiculous but still even compared to it's nearest neighbor, H beat extend, you still don't get an insane mixup option or side switch into happy birthday (unless your character is super fast) like you can with beat extend in addition to still being able to hit you even if you try to jump past it, or in some cases even lockdown. Also H beat doesn't have that extra vulnerability penalty either.

It's just a DP assist that works for that specific need, a get off me, I'd understand if it meant you could pick up characters behind you and then happy birthday or it had vacuum for mix up potential but PoD does neither. The damage on it is also standard, 1.1k most DP assists do that amount.

The high carry is probably the only thing I'd say over-gratifying but overall a standard DP assist, if it gets extra vuln like L or M beat then I think it should be applied to all DP assists.

Edit: I do not want more DP assists to get these penalties, currently in this meta it feels necessary to have one and making them easier to stuff would make defense even harder than it already is.
 
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Just wanted to pop in and say that I think this patch in general is pretty great. I also appreciate the explanations from Liam of the thought process/goals for each set of changes that we've been getting the past few patches.
- I think this version of Annie is much more interesting than the previous patch on point while keeping her as a solid glue character, giving more team building options.
- The Eliza buffs are great and I'd like to give her current version a decent amount of time so people can really get a better feel for the buffs. She's likely in a good place now but we'll need to see how that develops ofc. I would have liked to see backdash after sH stay since I think it allowed for some fun mindgames & creativity. That said, I never thought Sekh block pressure/mix was that strong at higher levels so I think its removal doesn't really impact her overall strength. So I'm not too sad to see it go, even if I liked it, and I think this is a pretty big net plus for Eliza.
- I don't care for the partial reversion of the catheads nerf but I've made my opinion on this pretty clear in this thread so I won't repeat myself.
- I liked the nerfs to Fortune's defence and to Pea overall so I'm a bit sad to see them go. That said, I think the game is in a great spot right now and, imo, the current power levels in the game are very close between characters and are at a really gratifying place where a lot of creativity and character/team diversity is not just possible but strong at a competitive level. So I'm pretty happy for non-season pass characters to stay mostly as is (hopefully with some QoL stuff to round off jank that doesn't affect actual strength but can just be frustrating).

Triviality said:
design philosophy on resources vs resources. Vials don't go away cause Valentine spent time to acquire those resources. And so to get rid of this resource, you yourself must spend a resource, Its the reason that Snap and Supers get rid of the poison on your character but just hitting her doesn't

To that regard its the same philosophy that Bomb's don't go away for peacock on hit, or fukuas love dart, or robo's head projectiles, these characters rely on the time and space they give up in neutral to set these up.
This isn't really a design philosophy of SG's, at least not an intentional/core one from what I can see. The decisions on which tools/projectiles/etc go away on hit has always been a balance decision. The effort required to get the resource might factor into that balance decision but it's still always been secondary (which is why there are so many exceptions/contradictions if you try and view the game through this lense).
Orange vials specifically used to follow the same rules as poison & green vials pre-2016 patch, lvl 1 & 2 go away if Val is hit by anything while lvl 3 only goes away on super/snap. Orange vial was buffed so that you need to hit Val with a super/snap to get rid of it at any level as part of this patch because barely anyone used any vials other than poison at this point. The intent was to incentivise using all 3 vials (which is why green vial got extra otg hitstop) and this was just the method that was chosen for orange vial. It wasn't really a design philosophy decision but rather a balance one.

Edit: oops, orange vial got changed in a 2014 patch. 2016 patch changed green vial.
 
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I decided to make a list regarding the current balance in Season 1 for SG:

Perfect:

Filia
Cerebella
Parasoul
Peacock
Big Band
Fukua

Could use a Few/Some Adjustments:

Ms. Fortune
Double
Robo-Fortune
Valentine
Squigly
Beowulf
Annie
Umbrella

Needs Help:

Painwheel
Eliza

NOTE: Please take this with a grain of salt since this is what I know so far after watching and hearing various streams and opinions from players.
 
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hamie96 said:
Posting this clip because as it currently stands, that is inconsistent with her other vials. Only orange vial doesn't go away on hit.
Wow, egg on my face! Thank you for posting this!

I have no clue lol, that was just an example I brought up because I remember that was the points brought up in regards to why Orange Vial not going away on hit, the inconsistency just confuses me now, maybe its cause orange vial can be completely nullfified based on player skill and the others cant? Who knows at this point
 
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Triviality said:
Wow, egg on my face! Thank you for posting this!

I have no clue lol, that was just an example I brought up because I remember that was the points brought up in regards to why Orange Vial not going away on hit, the inconsistency just confuses me now, maybe its cause orange vial can be completely nullfified based on player skill and the others cant? Who knows at this point

Love your pom btw
No worries, I think it's important to discuss since these inconsistencies are interesting (possibly to make orange vial more useful?). I wasn't around during the 2E patches so I'm not sure, but I fathom that's most likely the reason. Whether she actually needs it is something I'll leave to people with way more experience.

Also thanks, hopefully we get a Garfield skin someday.
 
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As I explained above, vials aren't a design philosophy inconsistency, they're the way they are because it was a conscious balance decision in 2016 since people hardly used any vial other than poison.
Lex said:
This isn't really a design philosophy of SG's. The decisions on which tools/projectiles/etc go away on hit has always been a balance decision. [...] Orange vials specifically used to follow the same rules as poison & green vials pre-2016 patch, lvl 1 & 2 go away if Val is hit by anything while lvl 3 only goes away on super/snap. Orange vial was buffed [...] It wasn't really a design philosophy decision but rather a balance one.
 
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Lex said:
As I explained above, vials aren't a design philosophy inconsistency, they're the way they are because it was a conscious balance decision in 2016 since people hardly used any vial other than poison.
Do you remember which patch?
 
It was the Beo patch. No one used lag vial and around that time there was thread in here about why people don’t use it and I guess it lead to the changes. For reference val/excella wasn’t a thing until like 2015 and a lot of Val’s barely bothered with vials in the first place and if they did it was purple.
 
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mpgame99 said:
It was the Beo patch. No one used lag vial and around that time there was thread in here about why people don’t use it and I guess it lead to the changes. For reference val/excella wasn’t a thing until like 2015 and a lot of Val’s barely bothered with vials in the first place and if they did it was purple.
I can try to find it for maybe notes? Beo patch refers to his release i assume and not his reworks?
 
It was the Beo release but the patch notes on mizuumi don’t have the reasons why. You would probably have to look through the steam community hub on the endless beta to find the date of the exact change and look there. If you find the thread here that might help to
 
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mpgame99 said:
It was the Beo release but the patch notes on mizuumi don’t have the reasons why. You would probably have to look through the steam community hub on the endless beta to find the date of the exact change and look there. If you find the thread here that might help to
Yeye thats what i meant, on it! Thanks mp
 
Following up on Valentine Orange Vial (Because I find it very interesting at this point)

The inconsistency was brought up in October 27th of 2014 They read as

Valentine:

- Bugfix: Valentine faces the proper way after Savage Bypass on block or when it doesn't cross behind the opponent.
- Bugfix: Valetine's counter super will not step out of the corner if she is in the corner, but will still step forward otherwise.
- Bugfix: Valentine's s.MK hitboxes expanded downward and inward so that the 2nd part misses less on crouching characters.
- Bugfix: Adjust the way that s.MK works so that there is no longer 1 frame between several of the hits where if you do s.HK the opponent will recover in time to block it.
- Counter super +5f active counter period, -5f recovery period.
- Adjust angle of air shuriken/syringe tosses. LP is shallower, MP is unchanged, HP is flatter.
- All levels of lag vial only go away if Valentine is hit by a super or snapback, and count down at half speed when she is in hitstun.
- Savage Bypass assist starts ahead of where it used to.
- Air Savage Bypass allows Valentine to move afterward on hit only. Limited to 2 per jump, and they must be different strengths.
- Air Savage Bypass dmg L 900->850, M 1000->925, H 1100->1000.
- s.MP all hits combo to s.HP, s.MP->MP drags downward vs air to improve comboability.

There were no notes or comments but I cross referenced the date on skullheart with visible threads including the keyword valentine before the date this went live, and this seems to be the prevalent thread

Why do some people consider Valentine a bad character?

Before I make some content outlining exactly why I believe Valentine is an amazing character, I'd like to get some concentrated feedback from disappointed Val players about why they don't consider Valentine a strong character. I'm making this a thread so that I don't have to scour the forums...
skullheart.com skullheart.com

This thread is godlike lmao i wish I was there

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The thread brings up Orange Vial but there was no response from any dev. Mike just threw in the orange vial buff at the date that this thread came and people reacted to it live, if I had to guess, this interaction evoked that buff

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It more or less got a lot of buffs (green vial too) because it wasn't used, but the power of input delay set ups draining Undizzy just wasn't prevalent at the time to be honest. (We didn't stop going for incoming at full undizzy and doing undizzy drain set ups until recently). It even used to drain twice as slow if you were hitting Valentine which was overkill, so I removed that part at least. (I think it should drain even faster if you're hitting Valentine honestly, you deserve it if you manage to hit her while underwater, haha.)

Green vial got a lot of buffs too as Lex said to make it more compelling to use. Air throw conversion using the OTG hitstop increase, and everything to do with draining Undizzy I believe was added afterwards. Purple vial also received nerfs, like the "stop draining at 10% health" rule to try and move people away from it.

It usually takes a lot of exploration before utility outweighs damage.
 
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