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I don't know if changes to old characters to round them out are still being considered, but after playing Parasoul for a while this is what I would suggest
-Fix/buff 5LP hitstun such that the on hit advantage goes from -9 > -3 and -10 to > -4 (or similar) to make the situation where she can’t confirm it less unsafe, and so it’s better on hit than on block
-Make the bullets from Inferno Brigade (level 3) drag the opponent towards the center of the attack (like Robo beam super) to prevent scenarios where it doesn’t do much damage at all (such as SSJ > DHC level 3) and to normalize the timing of confirming it
-Buff the recovery of Egret Dive a bit so she can move or block faster after negating projectiles
This last one I'm not sure exactly how to accomplish this:
-Buff the 1 bar confirm ability of Napalm Pillar when the assist is in front of the point which makes comboing the point impossible (A), but nerf the safety on bikes on block (B)
A: Sniper causes the existing ‘extra recovery on air hit’ effect only when it starts a combo. But this would also buff her DHCs
Or, bike super can come from the other side of the screen by holding backwards (like Double car super). But this would also buff the confirm ability of the super after detonations
Or, allow Napalm Pillar to cancel into Egret Call by pressing LK only on hit for one bar. But there's no precedent for spending meter like this on any other character.
B: Bikes from bike super have less blockstun / hitstop
And/or, more recovery for Parasoul if bikes are blocked
Im honestly down to see a version of the game where Parasoul’s air sniper shot recovery is the same as grounded as well as egret dive not only diving farther but recovering faster.
Painwheel could use a lot of love, but instead of just talking about buffs or QoL changes, I’d like to propose some changes that are more in line with how characters were spiced up in the last few patch cycles. Eliza skeleton and blood mechanics got reworked and cleaned up, and beo received two very good new tools to spend his hype, as well as getting easier access to the hype charges themselves. Painwheel has an entire mechanic with her stored armor damage that could be reimagined in interesting ways, providing a resource tied toolkit expansion to her currently limited/streamlined gameplan and options.
Spoilering to keep visual clutter down since I wrote a lot
The Tl;dr of how her hatred guard damage storage works currently, is when painwheel armors through something, she stores that damage, up to 33% of opponents total team hp, and then returns a portion of that damage back with any move that *can* have armor. (33% on lights, 50% on medium, 66% on heavies, with the damage scaled to the combo scaling (very important b/c most pw starters from neutral do not have good scaling), and 120% on the last hit of lvl 3, not scaled to the combo)
The idea behind the concept is for painwheel to get a bit more damage on reward for armoring something, and potentially get a very large payoff at the cost of a decent chunk of HP by armoring through assist calls repeatedly and then retreating.
Don’t want to numbers dump, though i did so spreadsheet work, and tl;dr if you armor through something and then CH them you get like 500-800 more damage, and if you armor through a full ground string they take a decent chunk more. Doing [5mp] through a beo jhp pays out with 1594 dmg on that hit (+ about 550 from the stored damage) while doing charged sweep vs a high damage ground string, annie 2lk 2mp 2hp will do an extra 2k damage from the stored damage if it counterhits. That is an impressive chunk, though keep in mind theres a lot of counterplay for the person getting armored (hit confirm to sweeps, multi hits, call assist, launcher suki cancel)
And that is the complete sum of the mechanic, its extra damage in situations she is already getting a counter hit starter, or if you armor through assists a decent amount, a slight compensation for how her most common starters (jmp and air throw) scale the combo to about half.
The problem with the mechanic (besides its strengths being justification for why she has the worst armor of all the armored moves in the game) is that it is a basically invisible mechanic that does not affect your decision making in meaningful ways in almost all situations: It is more reward for when she is already right, and NOT a mechanic that is worthwhile building a strategy around, or even committing any mental attention to.
I can armor H brass assists, and take 1750 damage each time, and then the next time i get a hit I cash out at best 1155 from each move i armored (2lk 2mk 2hp hitconfirm) and most likely closer to 500-600 off throw/jmp confirms (high hitting jmp routing being jmp fc jmk fc jmk 2mp 2hp is 50% scaling by the time the heavy will hit). That is a very very bad payoff for taking almost 2k dmg and committing air time and a flight charge to armor an assist that the opponent is probably moving directly behind.
Ultimately, it is a mechanic that has almost zero impact on decision making outside going way net minus on HP vs high dmg assists, and armoring lenny via dhc (very funny though). I’ve gone months of playing painwheel completely forgetting it is a mechanic, and i’ve had other pw players (ratbaby, PME) tell me the exact same thing. It just has reason to be in the mental stack of the character, and it could be made much cooler.
In order to make the mechanic more visible in players decision making, as well as give painwheel some love and new tools, I would like to propose a rework to how she cashes out the stored damage. Instead of just raw damage being stacked onto as a one time thing, I would like her to get that damage via cashing out %’s of the stored hp to do different routes, or get access to things like install buer effects outside of install.
None of these numbers are anything set is stone, but potentially:
Everytime painwheel armored through 750 worth of damage, she gets a Hatred Guage stock she can cash out (more UI work would be cringe for the team but yeah.) You can put a healthy cap on the amount of charged she can get if needed. Painwheel would then be able to spend a stock of the hatred guage to do unique things, such as:
hitting a punch button during a buer would spend a stock to make that buer do its install effect (ie, L buer doing stagger, etc etc).
Press two kicks during nails to skip the charge up/store the nails for next time using it
Spend 1-2 stocks to 8 way airdash while shes flying with direction+KK (needs more elegant input to prevent awkward overlap)
Spend a stock to gain another flight when shes ran out in an air time
If a stock is available, calling pinion would give it a hit of armor
I think that giving her cool new ways to cash out and make very boring mechanic more interesting is a net plus to the game and character. widening her took kit is very appreciated for a character who looks imposing but 90% of the time boils down to fly upback call assist wait. and it can give her buffs in a way that doesn't buff 7fly assist, bc 80% of the scene does not have fun when that's happening, pw players included.
that's my rare skullheart thread for the month, it's not even complainwheeling I swear
y'all can go back to Bella jhp talk now just let me store nails
edit
nice, definitely agree. Cashing out full stocks if you bide your time & save up would be ideal. Overall I just want something making install more accessible whether making it a level 1 & simply toning down damage somewhat or Nope's dope idea of a semi-perpetual install (or combintion of both). Whatever it takes to keep it from primarily being DHC-worthy. Apart from that, hope to see stocks useable for air dashes (maybe invuln startup like zamasu -- you are spending a resource you worked hard getting) for expression & also think her lights have normal frame data isnt a big deal. opens her up to throws more anyways knowing people might try to armor through meaties.
Eliza finally got the meter use removed, but the drops of blood not being able to get cashed out or do something special after biting feels really empty as picking up doesnt really matter much. It's nice if you can but hardly matters if you dont.. If her specials arent gonna be better directly, being able to enhance them in a similar way cashing out blood you collect & losing out on the health you regained kicks it up a notch.
sekh is cool but oddly, people dont bother using much outside of conversions (which you literally need sekh for) or just super optimal damage itself. Making people choose between oki & picking up drops would be more interesting as well as making s.hk recover faster for said oki. Most other characters have forever to setup something, eliza barely has much time because she's spending most of it running back over towards them. A more satisfying play loop too.
Edit:
....ummm but actually are we ever going to receive any communication about anything at all on the future of the game. dont want to sound entitled, it's not that, but moreso asking for the courtesy since we've all spent so much time playing and essentially play-testing. There's not been official word on the future of the cast & updates besides DLC. Would be nice. DLC is wonderful and tbh im more than happy to pour in a few more hundred just off sheer principle, but im hoping theres more than just DLC & nerfs. For many who just want to keep playing the same team & arent interested in most of the DLC it's been very bittersweet considering annie & umbrella still have some substantial hangups.
please change umb lvl 3 to be a 360 input please its so painful having to deal with sns + reflector then getting shotgun instead, or the game just fucking me in the ass completely and giving me shotgun anyways
idk why they even fucking decided to stick lvl 3 on a qcb pp motion when every single throw super in the game follows the same formula of being a 360.
please change umb lvl 3 to be a 360 input please its so painful having to deal with sns + reflector then getting shotgun instead, or the game just fucking me in the ass completely and giving me shotgun anyways
idk why they even fucking decided to stick lvl 3 on a qcb pp motion when every single throw super in the game follows the same formula of being a 360.
I mentioned this earlier and posted in the Discord, but here's an Idea I've had for a while to rework Dahlia's M and H Reloads:
The dots are red rounds while S1 and S2 are each a different type of special round. Important note: when it says S1 on multiple bullets, both of those bullets are the same type of special bullet. Basically, M-Reload front-loads a bunch of special rounds for neutral, and leaves a handful of red rounds for use mid-combo. H-Reload does the opposite, giving you a bunch of red rounds for neutral while leaving the special rounds to use in combos.
For Eliza: If it's determined that she should not have the ability to use Crimson Scourge as a DHC at any time, I have another suggestion. Her new taunt effect isn't very useful as losing pressure to try and pick up a few extra health droplets that normally wouldn't fall too far from you anyway isn't worth losing the pressure on the opponent. I propose to change her taunt to basically an inverse of her previous taunt: Using taunt allows Eliza one use of Crimson Scourge without being in Sekhmet. This makes the player have to choose between trying to keep pressure with constant resets but have less defensive/synergy options, OR they can choose to utilize her hard knockdown buttons to buff their character to have a great reversal super on deck/DHC alpha counter. They would have to have played Eliza a bit to get this and either get the opponent incapacitated or try going for taunt after a kill which can be risky. I think this change would round her out perfectly and making it "one use per taunt" will encourage decisions between using it as a reversal or a combo DHC since you'd need taunt to use it again. I do think Throne and Sewer Grab are a little weak as specials go and could use a small tweak to knockback and damage scaling respectively but otherwise I think the character would be perfect with these additions. Hopefully you consider trying it in an alpha patch^^
Since this got people in a tizzy but nobody wants to talk about it in this thread for some reason, is it reasonable to suggest that Valentine's 2MK pulls the opponent inward to address things like this?
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Sure Val could've dashed here to get this specific punish, but having a consistent chain to just launch the opponent without having to pray that it doesn't drop (or scaling the hell out of your combo with 5MP) doesn't sound too crazy to me.
Can Umbrella's DP just be a normal DP? The way it currently is makes it so pw can't even stop at a normal since she's minus most of the time since 2MK>5HP isn't a blocksting (or most things into a heavy for that matter [haha pw...]), umbrella just gets to hit pw for free with her dp
(she can however, fly cancel and unfly and block the dp but what about every other dumb option ravenous umbrela has)
Which means pw has to be at most -5 (discounting stopping at lights but jesus what an ask with this character with stubby lights) which kind of omega sucks when you have a character with a 4f jab and a 10-14f overhead (idk if rising jLP is overhead or hits pw but I'm p sure jMP is.)
can pw please just have a real blockstring from the buttons she's normally tapping?
Because right now the only thing that's a valid blockstring for pw is 5MP > 5HP and that's asking for a lot because my main poke (2LK) hits MUCH further than 5MP and asking me to be a hitconfirm god with just 2LK is an even huger ask.
Also please fix pw 5MP on umbrella it's so annoying how it drops just because I missed movement by 1 frame (because you have to literally micro walk for exactly 1f on a 5f link so on umbrella you have micro walk 1f and press 5MP within a 4f window.). I get squigly just fine, that's right, squigly. So please please please fix that.
This match up just... sucks. And pw has a lot of bad match ups but this one is starting to take the cake. Though I can see B dahlia v pw being even worse.
But if there's anything to take away from my rambling it's this: Please give Painwheel a real blockstring. Pretty please with a cherry on top. She's gonna need more than that with all these new characters but bare minimum a real blockstring would send me to heaven. Fixing 5MP against umbrella would have me see God.
Like, I know the next patch is being worked on but please please please please add this too pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Can Umbrella's DP just be a normal DP? The way it currently is makes it so pw can't even stop at a normal since she's minus most of the time since 2MK>5HP isn't a blocksting (or most things into a heavy for that matter [haha pw...]), umbrella just gets to hit pw for free with her dp
(she can however, fly cancel and unfly and block the dp but what about every other dumb option ravenous umbrela has)
Which means pw has to be at most -5 (discounting stopping at lights but jesus what an ask with this character with stubby lights) which kind of omega sucks when you have a character with a 4f jab and a 10-14f overhead (idk if rising jLP is overhead or hits pw but I'm p sure jMP is.)
can pw please just have a real blockstring from the buttons she's normally tapping?
Because right now the only thing that's a valid blockstring for pw is 5MP > 5HP and that's asking for a lot because my main poke (2LK) hits MUCH further than 5MP and asking me to be a hitconfirm god with just 2LK is an even huger ask.
Also please fix pw 5MP on umbrella it's so annoying how it drops just because I missed movement by 1 frame (because you have to literally micro walk for exactly 1f on a 5f link so on umbrella you have micro walk 1f and press 5MP within a 4f window.). I get squigly just fine, that's right, squigly. So please please please fix that.
This match up just... sucks. And pw has a lot of bad match ups but this one is starting to take the cake. Though I can see B dahlia v pw being even worse.
But if there's anything to take away from my rambling it's this: Please give Painwheel a real blockstring. Pretty please with a cherry on top. She's gonna need more than that with all these new characters but bare minimum a real blockstring would send me to heaven. Fixing 5MP against umbrella would have me see God.
Like, I know the next patch is being worked on but please please please please add this too pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Yes indeed partner, playing good Umbrellas like you and nope have really cemented my opinion that the pw v umb matchup sucks. It doesn't even make sense to me why umbrella has other forms she's basically in ravenous the entire game lol. The other forms just seem like combo tools much like another character with forms as a mechanic. and being in starving is p whatever since you just have to do one thing and you're back to being the ultimate lifeform.
Though pw having no blockstrings has been a complaint I've had for years, this character in particular makes it way more noticeable than it used to, glaringly even. But that's the norm for pw tbh.
I personally felt I was struggling the most, though you play both of pw's worst matchups (imo) and sure I run beam but that's what makes pw even remotely useable. And being a character that strictly relies on its assist is sad. (Yes, more than Beo)
Overall it's clear to me PW is the character suffering the most from power creep and desperately needs work.
Yes indeed partner, playing good Umbrellas like you and nope have really cemented my opinion that the pw v umb matchup sucks. It doesn't even make sense to me why umbrella has other forms she's basically in ravenous the entire game lol. The other forms just seem like combo tools much like another character with forms as a mechanic. and being in starving is p whatever since you just have to do one thing and you're back to being the ultimate lifeform.
Though pw having no blockstrings has been a complaint I've had for years, this character in particular makes it way more noticeable than it used to, glaringly even. But that's the norm for pw tbh.
I personally felt I was struggling the most, though you play both of pw's worst matchups (imo) and sure I run beam but that's what makes pw even remotely useable. And being a character that strictly relies on its assist is sad. (Yes, more than Beo)
Overall it's clear to me PW is the character suffering the most from power creep and desperately needs work.
Can Umbrella's DP just be a normal DP? The way it currently is makes it so pw can't even stop at a normal since she's minus most of the time since 2MK>5HP isn't a blocksting (or most things into a heavy for that matter [haha pw...]), umbrella just gets to hit pw for free with her dp
(she can however, fly cancel and unfly and block the dp but what about every other dumb option ravenous umbrela has)
Which means pw has to be at most -5 (discounting stopping at lights but jesus what an ask with this character with stubby lights) which kind of omega sucks when you have a character with a 4f jab and a 10-14f overhead (idk if rising jLP is overhead or hits pw but I'm p sure jMP is.)
can pw please just have a real blockstring from the buttons she's normally tapping?
Because right now the only thing that's a valid blockstring for pw is 5MP > 5HP and that's asking for a lot because my main poke (2LK) hits MUCH further than 5MP and asking me to be a hitconfirm god with just 2LK is an even huger ask.
Also please fix pw 5MP on umbrella it's so annoying how it drops just because I missed movement by 1 frame (because you have to literally micro walk for exactly 1f on a 5f link so on umbrella you have micro walk 1f and press 5MP within a 4f window.). I get squigly just fine, that's right, squigly. So please please please fix that.
This match up just... sucks. And pw has a lot of bad match ups but this one is starting to take the cake. Though I can see B dahlia v pw being even worse.
But if there's anything to take away from my rambling it's this: Please give Painwheel a real blockstring. Pretty please with a cherry on top. She's gonna need more than that with all these new characters but bare minimum a real blockstring would send me to heaven. Fixing 5MP against umbrella would have me see God.
Like, I know the next patch is being worked on but please please please please add this too pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Lmao the thought of a new annie player mashing stinger and winning because you decided to hit a second button is peak comedy
It can come in handy as a frametrap (It's still a tight gap but a gap is a gap) but also the thing is that I can frame trap just by charging my button an extra frame or two or just delaying the button myself so it's really strange to me that it's not just a blockstring on its own.
Can Umbrella's 2hp not be the worst launcher of all time?
Why is the hitbox so small, it's already a multihit so it's bad for scaling, why did it also need an awful awful garbage hitbox?
Oh yeah that reminds me, regarding Val's 2HP, I only played Val for like a week and found her 2HP to be very irritating to use.
What if her launcher just had a floor hitbox to the right of her for 1f? That way any dumb thing that drops with it (barring turning the wrong way) probably won't and without making it a massive AA (though that wouldn't be a bad thing necessarily for 1f) And maybe then things that need raw 2HP could work more frequently instead of having her die because of it.
For Eliza: If it's determined that she should not have the ability to use Crimson Scourge as a DHC at any time, I have another suggestion. Her new taunt effect isn't very useful as losing pressure to try and pick up a few extra health droplets that normally wouldn't fall too far from you anyway isn't worth losing the pressure on the opponent. I propose to change her taunt to basically an inverse of her previous taunt: Using taunt allows Eliza one use of Crimson Scourge without being in Sekhmet.
I think people have a bad taste with "Character needs taunts in their setplay" because then theorycrafting goes the way of beo where "Character is one tier higher/lower depending on whether or not they have resource building assist"
Its i think of more value to just continue fighting for Nekhbreaker and LOS to both be actual level 1's supers instead of funny haha damage cashouts
This makes the player have to choose between trying to keep pressure with constant resets but have less defensive/synergy options, OR they can choose to utilize her hard knockdown buttons to buff their character to have a great reversal super on deck/DHC alpha counter. They would have to have played Eliza a bit to get this and either get the opponent incapacitated or try going for taunt after a kill which can be risky.
Maybe we should give her some lingering or delayed effects to her summons. effectively giving players choice in how they take down a character is nice and Dahlia has been a breath of fresh air in that player choice player freedom aspect, but for eliza her main strength right now IS to reset someone to death instead of going for hard knockdowns. Sekhmets instant oppression but heavy risk openings once that oppression is over is her thesis at the moment.
I think people have a bad taste with "Character needs taunts in their setplay" because then theorycrafting goes the way of beo where "Character is one tier higher/lower depending on whether or not they have resource building assist"
Its i think of more value to just continue fighting for Nekhbreaker and LOS to both be actual level 1's supers instead of funny haha damage cashouts
Maybe we should give her some lingering or delayed effects to her summons. effectively giving players choice in how they take down a character is nice and Dahlia has been a breath of fresh air in that player choice player freedom aspect, but for eliza her main strength right now IS to reset someone to death instead of going for hard knockdowns. Sekhmets instant oppression but heavy risk openings once that oppression is over is her thesis at the moment.
I was thinking more along the lines of how Band's taunt is utilized. Not many people talk about him being reliant on setplay assists for his taunt, and Crimson Scourge isn't necessarily being utilized for setplay, rather giving her a much needed buff to her abysmal defensive options while also putting a bandaid on her synergy issues.
Nekhbreaker is kinda fine as a DHC Super since you go in from air strings leaving undizzy on the table. I don't see what else you'd really want from it besides invul, but I dunno if that's really necessary. LOS is a damage cash out super. It's not meant to be used as a reversal and the only really problematic things about it is that its synergy with the cast is lackluster at best if trying to DHC out of it.
I figured the taunt change would be the easiest way to make significant changes to her without having to further rework blood and summons to do more for her than they do now. There hasn't been a lot of feedback on what is feasible for the team to do with their resources, especially with the amount of work that goes into DLC, so I tried to simplify the solution as much as I could.
I was thinking more along the lines of how Band's taunt is utilized. Not many people talk about him being reliant on setplay assists for his taunt, and Crimson Scourge isn't necessarily being utilized for setplay, rather giving her a much needed buff to her abysmal defensive options while also putting a bandaid on her synergy issues.
Nekhbreaker is kinda fine as a DHC Super since you go in from air strings leaving undizzy on the table. I don't see what else you'd really want from it besides invul, but I dunno if that's really necessary. LOS is a damage cash out super. It's not meant to be used as a reversal and the only really problematic things about it is that its synergy with the cast is lackluster at best if trying to DHC out of it.
I figured the taunt change would be the easiest way to make significant changes to her without having to further rework blood and summons to do more for her than they do now. There hasn't been a lot of feedback on what is feasible for the team to do with their resources, especially with the amount of work that goes into DLC, so I tried to simplify the solution as much as I could.
Bands supers are actually good without taunt though
Overall it's clear to me PW is the character suffering the most from power creep and desperately needs work.
I disagree.
Also, I'm having a hard time to understand how having a blockstring is that useful in SG. And about the hitgrab DP, I took some minutes to lab and you can do 2MK fly 3 jLP and still block if brella does DP as a reversal so I think it is fine as it is.
And how is Brella a bad match up for Painwheel, Brella has a hard time getting in, you can just lame her into "blocking with her face" and bait her DP just fine.
If you lame out umbrella she just gets to stack puddles and build meter while being in ravenous and then can throw out her iris super which covers the entire floor forcing pw to do something and that's where rav umb is very good. Very similar to the squigly match up, fighting that way only lets that character get stronger and you're worse off in the long run but being aggressive isn't necessarily a good idea either but you gotta do it. But it's a matter of opinion I'm not stating facts. The problem with that dp in particular is that pw can't pressure umbrella the same way any other character can or against any other character. Her armor becomes less useful because charging against a little gremlin with fast normals is generally a bad idea and that's where the DP comes in so it makes pw have less options to pressure with. But again, it's a matter of opinion. And at the end of the day I prefer PW just get massively buffed because it's a PW only problem. (honestly a lot of stuff I have problems with in general seem to be pw only problems so I'd rather see her get stronger first then see how it goes.)
Not having a valid blockstring does this which means most every character can just super you:
If you want to frametrap I don't see why you can't just stagger a button instead while adding stability for a character. I think it's a fair ask.
also on the 2LK 2MK fly jLP thing, that leaves pw open to a 5MP in rav CH if umb pbs the 2LK, it's just a rough match up, you have to be really mindful about how you pressure her. Honestly this character puts me way out of my comfort zone.
But the bubbles do, they're a giant hitbox interaction waiting to happen, my bad. The puddles weren't what I was worried about but at the moment I confused what they were 'cause they weren't even part of the equation. Having a bubble out is very scary
But the bubbles do, they're a giant hitbox interaction waiting to happen, my bad. The puddles weren't what I was worried about but at the moment I confused what they were 'cause they weren't even part of the equation. Having a bubble out is very scary
yeah bubble camping is more the issue in the matchup (see fight back 17, me vs PME), but i counter by saying dealing with pw with lifelead and ESPECIALLY assist is annoying as umb since she can hardly catch up.
Here are some of my suggested changes for the top tiers right now
Fortune:
j.lk range reduced. This move is honestly the majority of the reason ms fortune is overtuned imo. The range at which this character can threaten overhead/low is absolutely absurd, all of the sudden things like blocked stray dp assist hits at far range are a lot more threatening when the point has the potential to non comitally instant overhead you from that range. Also things like rising jlk hitting some crouching characters from such a far range when she already has an iad seems so overkill. Even if they are standblocking or upbacking the rising jlk she can put you in a pushblock mixup with her regular confirm.
With fortune having such a large area she can threaten high low, it also makes pushblocking feel like an extremely frustrating fight against the game cause you will block the high low then she just dashes up and does it again because she is +17 after a early pb'd jlk and doesnt even need to dash for that long to be in range for another high low . Other characters like Filia and Eliza can do something similar but are way easier to anti air, land cancel and pbgc. Overall I feel like j.lk is the main thing that NEEDS to change about this character if nothing else, she shouldn't have more sticking power then characters with lower damage, meterbuild and mobility then her.
Headroll invul removed: Ms fortune already has fiber she doesn't need a reversal that is -2 at worst and can even be plus with good spacing. It even has pushback so you almost never have to take anything for getting it baited. Maybe the idea was you can punish her + the head if she guesses wrong but anyone who has played against fortune can tell you how this literally never happens. With tools like a safe on whiff dp, one of the best upforwards/neutral jumps in the game she is way too good at playing minus frames for this to be anything close to a bad spot.
Headless:
Right know hitting the head doesn't give anything close to enough reward for the entire cast. Unless you have something like double cmk/chp into gun + lockdown assist or beo chair jhp, the majority of the time all hitting the head in neutral is going to be doing is dealing a hilariously irrelevant amount of damage and letting the fortune call assist jump at you and meme you for thinking hitting the head is worth it.
I propose all lights doing a minimum amount to the head, something like 750 per hit to really make the fortune have to care about the head getting hit. Also I think the head should have a bigger hitbox, that shits mad hard to hit for how hard it can fuck you up for slightly whiffing a hit on it.
Corner clk head loops removed: Allow her to do way too much damage especially with max ud loops, don't think there's much else to say besides that and I don't think its a good look for the game to have a character so blatantly ignoring IPS.
Peacock:
Lenny increased to 2 bars: This super is way too good in its current state for it to only be 1 bar ESPECIALLY with how quickly peacock herself prints meter. It makes her zoning extremely oppressive, allows her some of the strongest meter dump in the game, and just throwing it by itself creates a wildcard situation that the peacock can control at any time with argus. Even if she gets hit with it out the opponent has to know a combo for lenny + point while also taking into account the amount of damage the lenny has taken and time passed, not to mention variable starters and screen positioning. Even this scenario is in her favor because while if you fuck up you take full damage counterhit lenny for 7.4k, and are fullscreen vs a peacock, while she takes a scaled regular hit lenny for maybe 2k if your lucky and she gets to do her wincondition of zoning. This is easily the strongest lvl 1 super and would probably be the strongest lvl 2 super if it got nerfed to that.
M bang recovery frames increased to 50: This is skullgirls so its not out of the ordinary for a zoner to have a dp but having it by far have the least recovery frames of any dp on top of an already top tier character is way too much. Its a chore getting in on peacock so if I correctly bait her reversal let me hch. This makes stuff like dp + lockdown assist stronger for her.
Also not sure how to go about this exactly but I would like if her safety during mix would be nerfed. The benefit of playing a character that every character in the game has to approach is that when your in a mixup situation even if your mix is blocked they are forced to pushblock your plus frames and go back to getting zoned which is your win condition. With this and either player bursting being in peacocks favor, it really doesn't make sense for her to be able to block while 50/50ing you with item drop, the situation is already so much in her favor without this.
Annie:
Install reworked/changed: Right now this is install is very toxic to fight and not particularly fun to use. I heard a new install is getting worked idk if its true or not but if it is I hope it turns out well.
Headroll invul removed: Ms fortune already has fiber she doesn't need a reversal that is -2 at worst and can even be plus with good spacing. It even has pushback so you almost never have to take anything for getting it baited. Maybe the idea was you can punish her + the head if she guesses wrong but anyone who has played against fortune can tell you how this literally never happens. With tools like a safe on whiff dp, one of the best upforwards/neutral jumps in the game she is way too good at playing minus frames for this to be anything close to a bad spot.
Headless:
Right know hitting the head doesn't give anything close to enough reward for the entire cast. Unless you have something like double cmk/chp into gun + lockdown assist or beo chair jhp, the majority of the time all hitting the head in neutral is going to be doing is dealing a hilariously irrelevant amount of damage and letting the fortune call assist jump at you and meme you for thinking hitting the head is worth it.
I propose all lights doing a minimum amount to the head, something like 750 per hit to really make the fortune have to care about the head getting hit. Also I think the head should have a bigger hitbox, that shits mad hard to hit for how hard it can fuck you up for slightly whiffing a hit on it.
Corner clk head loops removed: Allow her to do way too much damage especially with max ud loops, don't think there's much else to say besides that and I don't think its a good look for the game to have a character so blatantly ignoring IPS.
What would you propose to compensate for the lack of invuln on headroll? It currently only serves as a reversal as you can't combo into it barring assists so you'd just be making this move completely useless. It's 30f and throwable and land cancelable and if you jump to bait it you can punish it while able baiting fiber at the same time or air reset fortune and she has the threat of neither option.
I can agree with the fact that not every character gets a good punish on the head, that can be a lot better esp if characters could actually hit the head behind them because some characters can, just most of them can't, which is silly.
The minimum damage of 750 though? Fortune would lose so much health esp if the head is going to be easier to hit, she'd be taking 1-2k easily with a change like that, I think it would be wiser to just make it easier to hit first and see how that goes, then experiment with that later.
M bang recovery frames increased to 50: This is skullgirls so its not out of the ordinary for a zoner to have a dp but having it by far have the least recovery frames of any dp on top of an already top tier character is way too much. Its a chore getting in on peacock so if I correctly bait her reversal let me hch. This makes stuff like dp + lockdown assist stronger for her.
Serious question, why does everyone seem to struggle with DPs that you can just jump over and HCH punish? I have had the hardest time understanding why M bang is such an issue other than "I tried safe jumping Peacock" or "I over-committed" and while the other options exist and work, this other one really just has to work too? Like neutral jumping in front of Peacock is a pretty good bait too and it works so I find it very confusing that it needs to be more minus.
I propose all lights doing a minimum amount to the head, something like 750 per hit to really make the fortune have to care about the head getting hit. Also I think the head should have a bigger hitbox, that shits mad hard to hit for how hard it can fuck you up for slightly whiffing a hit on it.
Doing a fixed amount of damage would really be not a good change, specially a high amount of damage like 750. To put things in perspective, characters that can link lights into itself (Fukua and Filia for example) would be doing more damage than M Brass, and only 250 less than H Brass on fortune by doing 2 Light buttons. I know that people dont like Fortune, but this change would be a insane nerf to the part that is already the most hard to play with of the character, forcing people to use head-on more.
What would you propose to compensate for the lack of invuln on headroll? It currently only serves as a reversal as you can't combo into it barring assists so you'd just be making this move completely useless. It's 30f and throwable and land cancelable and if you jump to bait it you can punish it while able baiting fiber at the same time or air reset fortune and she has the threat of neither option.
I can agree with the fact that not every character gets a good punish on the head, that can be a lot better esp if characters could actually hit the head behind them because some characters can, just most of them can't, which is silly.
The minimum damage of 750 though? Fortune would lose so much health esp if the head is going to be easier to hit, she'd be taking 1-2k easily with a change like that, I think it would be wiser to just make it easier to hit first and see how that goes, then experiment with that later.
Serious question, why does everyone seem to struggle with DPs that you can just jump over and HCH punish? I have had the hardest time understanding why M bang is such an issue other than "I tried safe jumping Peacock" or "I over-committed" and while the other options exist and work, this other one really just has to work too? Like neutral jumping in front of Peacock is a pretty good bait too and it works so I find it very confusing that it needs to be more minus.
You have air headtoss as a very good way take off the head with a hitbox so its not like you cant take off the head anymore its just the grounded version would be less useful. But I wouldn't mind a speed buff to compensate so the move isnt worthless, maybe its like frame 10 with no invul? Open to other suggestions of course.
The problem with jumping reversals is that unless if they do anything but reversal you are giving up all pressure or potentially getting pressured yourself. Also with this specific scenario headroll being so slow can actually to its benefit, if you were to do something like neutral jump + block into falling button to beat fiber and headroll, the invul could last long enough to where by the time the falling button you are still invul and would beat it out. All of this of course doesnt take into account the fortune choosing her 3rd of 4 strong defensive options where she lvl 1's, goes under you and because your neutral jumping you cant turn around to get a hitbox out and punish.
Obviously there can be solutions with assists, alpha coutners, char specific stuff and such but the fact that there is so much for me to consider when I am the one who is plus or resetting the fortune is kind of ridiculous. You need to be very plus for jumping the reversal in this situation to work, which is very possible post hit but pre hit is very difficult. It also comes with complications of only being able to do very plus resets which get predictable fast.
Another thing that I forgot to mention in the OG post is that theres a very common situation in this game that headroll basically solves. When player 1 early pushblocks a string in a way that they stay in and could get a pbgc reversal out of the string and player 2 recognizes this, they are forced to either stop the string early and attempt to block the reversal, or think player 1 reads them doing that and will try to do a button to start their pressure/punish the recovery of the string and continues the string in order to counterhit the buttton. They could also do a reversal on their own pressure to "big brain" the situation but obviously that loses to just regular block (and makes you look stupid if it doesnt work). However if fortune is player 2 she needs to worry about none of this, she can just take note of the pbgc and toss out headroll. This would out invul frame the majority of reversals, beat buttons out, and if its blocked she is either irrelevantly minus or plus. All for no downside or meter besides having to switch modes to headless.
As for the head damage i just personally disagree, assuming a very unfavorable situation where headless fortune is fullscreen and the head is right infront of the opponent they can get 2 maybe 3 crouching lights out before the fortune dashes up and jumpin counterhits the recovery. That would max 2.2k dmg or about 1/8th of your hp in 3v3 which i feel like is a properly punishing amount. Also we have similar things in eliza where whiffing/blocking an axe loses her around 500 hp in in addition to gradually draining hp and being minus.
Doing a fixed amount of damage would really be not a good change, specially a high amount of damage like 750. To put things in perspective, characters that can link lights into itself (Fukua and Filia for example) would doing more damage than M Brass, and only 250 less than H Brass on fortune by doing 2 Light buttons. I know that people dont like Fortune, but this change would be a insane nerf to the part that is already the most hard to play with of the character, forcing people to use head-on more.
Filia clp currently does not hit fortune head, which might change if the head hitbox got bigger but yeah I see where your coming from but I still feel the amount of appropriate for the risk involved with hitting the head. The number could definitely be played around with but I think this is the best solution to give everyone a chance to hit the head in a relevant way instead of just some characters. If fukua's c.lkx2 ends up being too strong you could just do half the amount per clk.
Wouldn't it be better to just make headroll more minus? I'm not sure you'd want combo into stagger into crazy set up on demand.
Like, I don't have a problem with headroll at all but if it's gonna get changed I'd rather it just be that it's more punishable if you mess up though the whole idea is that headroll is a one time use DP like H chair and they both achieve the same thing. I'd rather it be put on the backburner and see what the nerfs everyone agrees on would do first instead of having all of them at once.
tfw tongue tied after spending 30 minutes on a post and discarding
I'll just say that 5lp hitting crouchers is really dumb for a move thats 5f, +5 on block (even chains into itself over and over until you do low/high mix), occasionally smacks people out of the air due to its size
in the context of fortunes kit its broken and the only time she needs to be thinking about using 2lk is to snuff low profile buttons like umb/squig 2lk
if fortune gets that shit clearly filia should too : o )
Lenny increased to 2 bars: This super is way too good in its current state for it to only be 1 bar ESPECIALLY with how quickly peacock herself prints meter. It makes her zoning extremely oppressive, allows her some of the strongest meter dump in the game, and just throwing it by itself creates a wildcard situation that the peacock can control at any time with argus. Even if she gets hit with it out the opponent has to know a combo for lenny + point while also taking into account the amount of damage the lenny has taken and time passed, not to mention variable starters and screen positioning. Even this scenario is in her favor because while if you fuck up you take full damage counterhit lenny for 7.4k, and are fullscreen vs a peacock, while she takes a scaled regular hit lenny for maybe 2k if your lucky and she gets to do her wincondition of zoning. This is easily the strongest lvl 1 super and would probably be the strongest lvl 2 super if it got nerfed to that.
I'd be fine with it staying 1bar if it had some timer of a sort, but I'm down to clown on the town to nerf it to 2bar (if it does get nerfed to 2bar lvl3 might be higher dmg so lvl 3 should just be a hitgrab tbh)
legit anything like a visual cue of lenny turning a flashing color of its own palette or better yet, a robo-esque timer
I'd be fine with it staying 1bar if it had some timer of a sort, but I'm down to clown on the town to nerf it to 2bar (if it does get nerfed to 2bar lvl3 might be higher dmg so lvl 3 should just be a hitgrab tbh)
legit anything like a visual cue of lenny turning a flashing color of its own palette or better yet, a robo-esque timer
I don't really like HUD timers, but having lenny make it really obvious visually when he's gonna explode sounds cool. Currently, I think you can(?) react to the start of the explosion animation, but it's far harder than if he flashed slightly.
I don't really like HUD timers, but having lenny make it really obvious visually when he's gonna explode sounds cool. Currently, I think you can(?) react to the start of the explosion animation, but it's far harder than if he flashed slightly.
You can react to it, but with all the visual noise (specially against Peacock) it's not worth the risk, imo.
I'd love for just gameplay purposes a life bar, but yeah that would be kinda ugly. Anything would be better than how it is right now, though, it's very frustrating to deal with.
Having it flash ~half a second before exploding would work just fine, too. Or something.
is it possible to have the fuse itself actually visibly scale/burn down? can delete a bit of length from the fuse for the important frames and leave the fire part of the asset the same. gradually shorten until it explodes & have the flame flash like 2 seconds before explosion then maybe 32f or so before exploding there's a red flash for the bomb itself. seems like a decent touch not needing any bars.
That or every few seconds one of the 'shine marks' disappears & the last one flashes before finally exploding perhaps
Oh & for fortune, i think hitting head should be 2-2.5x cooldown. leave damage alone but just take it out the action because rn it's just too short. headroll just make more negative. dont wanna make much worse, just more punishable like stuff said. Also yes, trying a couple nerfs first to see if that satisfies rather than all. Like before, i think damage should be main focus over everything making damage values lower across the board, rather than touch meter gain since meter's shared across the whole team. dont shoot her, but enough to need 4-5 touches or so. I like her mobility & tip of the toes nature, but make her work harder & give others better tools in general. never having mained fortune im ok with her 5lp, even jlk. Biggest gripe is to have head hit cooldowns be much better
Is it wrong to want everyone to just build more meter? This would be a nerf to fortune (and the other characters that can build a lot) while helping every other character with pitiful meter gain and this would also make some teams work a lot better because some teams can be good but it's not because the team is too meter hungry and therefore can't work even though in a perfect world this wouldn't be the case and more synergies could exist.
ex: pw squigly is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too meter hungry and neither really build much, if everyone built less team orders like this would be way worse off. But if pw and squigly built more then this team I feel would be very strong or at least more viable, these two have some level of synergy but they can't work together because they both like a battery to use all that meter that they both require. The solution would be to run pea or band or fortune as their meter builds are p good but I wish other characters could fulfill that role too or that they could do it themselves. Meter is like SGs greatest resource atm barring raw damage so if more characters could have it to better compete, I think this would be healthier rather than nerf a few and leave the dirt ones in the dirt. Though I guess we can tone down and tone up other characters, idk I just think more meter gain across the board would be nice for other teams to be able to compete with more ease.
pw with anything that isn't band fortune or peacock is generally too meter hungry imo but a universal meter buff would make the other teams more competitively viable. I'm not saying they gotta be like peacock tier or anything but like if pw built more or whatever other character built more, more teams would just work better and that would be cool because a lot of variety gets lost due to so few characters with such strong utility factors other characters just can't replicate.
Is it wrong to want everyone to just build more meter? This would be a nerf to fortune (and the other characters that can build a lot) while helping every other character with pitiful meter gain and this would also make some teams work a lot better because some teams can be good but it's not because the team is too meter hungry and therefore can't work even though in a perfect world this wouldn't be the case and more synergies could exist.
ex: pw squigly is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too meter hungry and neither really build much, if everyone built less team orders like this would be way worse off. But if pw and squigly built more then this team I feel would be very strong or at least more viable, these two have some level of synergy but they can't work together because they both like a battery to use all that meter that they both require. The solution would be to run pea or band or fortune as their meter builds are p good but I wish other characters could fulfill that role too or that they could do it themselves. Meter is like SGs greatest resource atm barring raw damage so if more characters could have it to better compete, I think this would be healthier rather than nerf a few and leave the dirt ones in the dirt. Though I guess we can tone down and tone up other characters, idk I just think more meter gain across the board would be nice for other teams to be able to compete with more ease.
pw with anything that isn't band fortune or peacock is generally too meter hungry imo but a universal meter buff would make the other teams more competitively viable. I'm not saying they gotta be like peacock tier or anything but like if pw built more or whatever other character built more, more teams would just work better and that would be cool because a lot of variety gets lost due to so few characters with such strong utility factors other characters just can't replicate.
I actually like this a lot. I could see Fukua benefitting immensely from this as part of her problem is she needs to use meter basically any time she wants to use throw in a low/throw pre-hit situation or mix for confirms. Fukua's zoning is relegated to one projectile whose meter gain is based off distance traveled (so when using the up close darts they barely give anything at all), and shadows that if held sap her health as well, and don't build that much. She doesn't get a great amount from her combos either. Not only would better meter gain allow her to spend it more freely for confirms, but she could also do more double level 1 super routing for better damage overall, making the tradeoff of losing her health feel more worth it since she'd get more out of it. PW I definitely feel needs this as well, especially if install is gonna stay level 2.
Is it wrong to want everyone to just build more meter? This would be a nerf to fortune (and the other characters that can build a lot) while helping every other character with pitiful meter gain and this would also make some teams work a lot better because some teams can be good but it's not because the team is too meter hungry and therefore can't work even though in a perfect world this wouldn't be the case and more synergies could exist.
ex: pw squigly is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too meter hungry and neither really build much, if everyone built less team orders like this would be way worse off. But if pw and squigly built more then this team I feel would be very strong or at least more viable, these two have some level of synergy but they can't work together because they both like a battery to use all that meter that they both require. The solution would be to run pea or band or fortune as their meter builds are p good but I wish other characters could fulfill that role too or that they could do it themselves. Meter is like SGs greatest resource atm barring raw damage so if more characters could have it to better compete, I think this would be healthier rather than nerf a few and leave the dirt ones in the dirt. Though I guess we can tone down and tone up other characters, idk I just think more meter gain across the board would be nice for other teams to be able to compete with more ease.
pw with anything that isn't band fortune or peacock is generally too meter hungry imo but a universal meter buff would make the other teams more competitively viable. I'm not saying they gotta be like peacock tier or anything but like if pw built more or whatever other character built more, more teams would just work better and that would be cool because a lot of variety gets lost due to so few characters with such strong utility factors other characters just can't replicate.
totally agree. Even option to increase meter gain x2-3 or start with more meter for private player matches (like how sf6 gonna allow private modifiers). Main thing coming to mind is snaps having option to hold through superflash giving the option instead for a higher wallbounce & reset OTG while more importantly take away a decent amount of undizzy & free IPS for one more string. Wouldnt mind trying -55 undizzy cuz people have the lattitude to continue w/a special & heavy normal with just a smidge left for a light to finish off the last string. Scale so it's about as much as a decent lvl 1.
We dont have a rapid/roman cancel tho id love to see a reworked annie with that as part of her own unique mechanic since she's sol jr. only doing supers and the occasional counterassault gets a bit repetitive sometimes. Having more options for combo creativity would be cool for meter.
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