The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[ruby_chan]

My thoughts on beowulf:
I feel beowulf's in an alright spot for me aside from needing a few buffs and nerfs.

The most immediate buff he needs right now is his mobility. Right now, he struggles against zoners and other characters with better mobility because he doesn't possess any movement options that get him in aside from his hopdash, j.d HK, and wulf blitzer, all of which are very linear. He can't get in on his opponents round start w/out assists to back him up and he suffers in his disadvantageous state because he has no escape options from his mobility alone. This is also compounded by the fact that he suffers extra chip damage without his chair, which is his only escape option without using meter through his dp.
I suggest that to combat this issue, 1) during j.d Hk, allow beowulf to drift farther in any direction the player chooses afterwards so that beowulf can maneuver around the opponent from his limited position, 2) allow 1 EX blitzer to let beowulf input any attack afterwards so that he isn't helpless in the air at the cost of hype, 3) allow airwulf to inputted in the air so that beowulf has an escape option in the air, 4) make beowulf take less chip damage when equipped with his chair, and 5) allow hurting hurl to be EX'd by hype so that he has more options to spend hype on for beneficial effects. I also think that for his assists, remove the cool down from his chair assists and allow players to choose his chairless assists so that he's more effective as an assist character covering his team with dp's and armor assists.

Now, for his nerfs, I think his overall damage and hype usage should be toned down a bit since the most effective strategies around beowulf is building a team around him and synergizing hype gain with resources assists like A-train, which doesnt sound like it offers a lot of variety on playstyles people generally want with him. I suggest that for his nerfs, his damage output should heavily scale after he uses EX grendel killa so that he has to reset, giving characters a chance to escape his ToD's, his taunt should only build max hype if he hits with any of his attacks (including supers and chair projectile; excluding hitgrabs/command grab if as a first hit) or whiffs normals that build him hype and loses all his hype if he's counterhit during or after his taunt, giving characters the opportunity to strike him the moment he tries building hype. This ensures that beowulf's gameplan doesn't solely revolve around activating taunt for instant max hype during his tod's and instead revolves around flexible ways to gain hype through/ without interacting with his opponents.

This is all I have to say about beowulf for now. Most of it is me spitballing ideas for how to make beowulf good and less polarizing. Hope to know what you think about my ideas for beowulf, since we're now in open season.

P.s: it's been a while since I posted on this thread, gosh, alot has changed since then.

Not sure which version of the game you are playing but some of the things mentioned are either not realistic sense, misinformation, or just questionable

4) make beowulf take less chip damage when equipped with his chair

- Beo already doesn't take chip damage when chair is equipped, the most chip he gets when chair is equipped is when he is hit my projectiles, specials, or supers which is more or less standard across the entire cast. He mainly only takes additional chip damage from normal moves (light punch, medium kick, etc) when chairless.

5) allow hurting hurl to be EX'd by hype so that he has more options to spend hype on for beneficial effects.

- Not sure what you mean by it but if the idea is that if he can do recall after chair toss then its something that's already there so idk what ex-ing chair toss is gonna do

his taunt should only build max hype if he hits with any of his attacks (including supers and chair projectile; excluding hitgrabs/command grab if as a first hit) or whiffs normals that build him hype and loses all his hype if he's counterhit during or after his taunt, giving characters the opportunity to strike him the moment he tries building hype. This ensures that beowulf's gameplan doesn't solely revolve around activating taunt for instant max hype during his tod's and instead revolves around flexible ways to gain hype through/ without interacting with his opponents.

- This was something that was tested previously in other beta patches that Liam mentioned when they said

Liam: "For some patches closer to his release I'll remind you that Beowulf couldn't build three hype with taunt, and had less ways to dump a ton of hype on EX moves during a combo, since many EX finishers didn't regrab - he may have been worse, but he wasn't shackled to resource assists for doing a ton of damage."

so it just leads back to the initial logjam issue that was previously mentioned.

Hopefully this makes sense or just clears things up for future reference and not to discourage you from writing what you think but just making sure that everyone is on the same page for the discussions

 

[KomodoSwagDragon]

can we take a look at the silhouette of dahlia’s counter when the counter fails? I feel like it is too similar to when the counter is active so it’s hard to tell in match when the counter is actually punishable.

 

[ahemtoday]

can we take a look at the silhouette of dahlia’s counter when the counter fails? I feel like it is too similar to when the counter is active so it’s hard to tell in match when the counter is actually punishable.

If art resources are limited, I'm not really sure there's a way to fix that right now...

 

[Karate jesus]

Hey everyone,

Really happy to see some Beowulf discussion being made and thought I would give my thoughts and opinions on the character.

Spoiler: Hype/Resources

I think Beowulf being able to build resources in combos effectively feels satisfying. Mic drop and 5HK stagger provide great rewards for a solo, having at least 1 hype after a reset after meeting these requirements.
I agree with Ruby_chan's suggestions addressing the issues that A-train and Salt Grinder have, which enable his gameplan to have meterless 2 touches compared to other assists, and allowing Chair-On 5HP to have a couple extra frames. And finally, being able to snap when Chairless would be very much appreciated.

Spoiler: QOL

Having a buffer after headbutt (as mentioned by iDante) so that 2MP isn’t a one frame link on Beo/Eliza would be nice, it depends on whether he should be allowed to also do it on heavies also since he’ll gain more damaging routes.
Ruby’s idea to remove the chip damage on Chairless and instead taking some additional damage would be an interesting idea, since Chairless needs a downside so that Beowulf players don't mindlessly throw their chairs away.

These where some of the suggestions that I am unsure of

Spoiler: Chair Recall

Chair Recall getting to keep its hitbox after getting hit doesn't really sound fair even for max hype. I feel like it would lead to how everyone feels about Peacock George’s, where the opponent will have to reroute their combo, either losing damage or risk losing their turn since the chair can be in multiple different places, altering the outcome.
Currently I think it's a great utility option and you still get to keep your chair, allowing you to reversal on the next mixup.

Spoiler: EX Chair Pickup

EX Chair Pickup sounds interesting but the waiting for the cooldown isn’t really that big of an issue imo. There are some scenarios where I can think that this would feel great, like hitting both characters with H chair and skipping the cooldown to get a snap, but then if you’re a few frames off from picking up your chair, you would have wasted hype for nothing.
I just feel that it would be more of a nuisance rather than a buff.

Spoiler: Chair Recall (Hold)

Chair Recall (Hold) caught my attention as currently, it leaves Beowulf with very little reward.
I wouldn’t blame people if they didn’t even know it was even a thing. I get that not every move has to have a purpose, but why would you bother wasting time for 1 hype when you could have just taunted and get your chair? To make this move worth it, you would have to give Beowulf a reason to choose this instead of taunt, maybe reducing the cost of recall by one so that you can still have an EX grab stance but obviously don’t let him stack this so that we see 1 hype recalls.

Here’s some ideas that I thought could be considered

Spoiler: Chairless

I understand the need for a punishment for Beowulf being in this state but I feel as if it's too harsh and just unsatisfying to reset with.
I say it's harsh considering how much you lose compared to having chair on such as no longer being able to double snap, taking chip while blocking normals and having no ways for dealing with multi hitting jump-ins just makes the correct decisions feel not as rewarding.
His resets also just feel bland in the sense that he doesn't have anything that's unique to him in this stance compared to having his chair. While I’m grateful for the ability to pick up chair to cancel the animations, not playing around your chair just leaves everyone ending their combos into 2LP/2LK into high/low/throw which he can already do with his chair on, making it feel predictable.
I would personally like to see Chairless become some sort of side-grade, where you still have some downsides but you can think about the situation and say "would it have been better to be Chairless there" and vice versa for chair on rather than being superglued to his chair.

Spoiler: Speeding up combos

As Umbrella had her combos sped up. Would this also be possible for Beowulf? People do tend to complain about the length and duration of his combos (which are notably extended with assists) and take a bit longer than most of the cast.

Spoiler: Crouch Cancel Rework

Before we get the pitchforks out, I’m fully aware that this will most likely never be added back, but taking another look at Crouch Cancelling working ON HIT ONLY could be something worthwhile.
I’ve been able to keep a version of crouch cancelling working on my Switch and go back from time to time to explore what could have been possible.
From what I’ve been able to recreate, I think the resets you were able to get off on hit provided more interesting ways to open people up for a character who’s considered linear.
The most stupid part of it was its outright broken ability on block to do hop overheads in a row and being able to safejump most PBGC meterless reversals which sounds miserable to play against. Another annoying aspect of it was being able to cancel the dash lockout off Wulf Blitzer, allowing for high, low, throw, H Chair Toss on block. When you consider that he can be -2 and have all these options, it should just be removed entirely, even on hit shouldn’t get to have this.
Beowulf isn’t reliant on this technique, I just think if we only keep the ON HIT aspects of it, then I think people won’t feel as annoyed getting hit by overhead into overhead, and allow for more player expression if this is possible to implement as I’m no game developer.

Currently this is the best iteration of Beowulf that we’ve gotten and being able to explore more of his move set has been amazing. I don't expect my ideas to land but I hope that everyone can peacefully discuss their views/opinions on Beowulf.

 

[Phantasms]

Current beta Annie.

While her getting back most of her damage fixed most of the problems I had with the previous beta version of her I think her new install needs to be looked into.

Old install is cracked and while I loved abusing it I can agree it wasn't healthy to have in the game but it was worth using.

Beta Install
I like the the idea and concept of the new install however it currently isn't actually worth using. Flat out it is just too expensive for what it actually does and gives you. For the cost of 3 meter you get an upgraded fire ball but since we have the new slower start up it's not as useful in general. You get powered up moves that makes the super deplete faster. And the RC is great but you get one. You also get to do supers in this mode but that cost even more meter. I have seen people use her install then switch her out to get upgraded fire ball assist which is cool but again cost 3 meter to do and dahlia can do the same with 1 meter and all electric shots.

Annie is a character who can already 3 touch with 1 meter pretty easily so why would I spend 3 meter to do the same? If I am left with just Annie left and I have 3 meter I would never waste it on install cause that wouldn't help me. if I am in neutral with 3 bars I'm not popping install cause it's a waste of meter. As a dhc I'm not popping install cause she has other options and speaking of...

If Annie has 3 meter she is better off using gravity sling shot in every case. It does damage, it tracks, it skips most neutral situations, and lets you set up a mix even when blocked and locks down on block. If Annie has 3 bars that would just be a better spend of meter and even then because her mix is so good post hit you can just kill them with an extra mix and less meter.

Other installs
Current robo install cost 3 meter but changes the properties of beams making them stronger, opens new combo routes and resets, changes her movement to make her faster and have an air dash, and lets her act frame 1 out of it, a timed explosion, which can be extended buy spending cat heads and health, that does good damage and lets you continue the combo after on hit and is mostly safe on block, Finally when she is subbed out she has one of the best alpha counters in the game making it more than worth the price of 3 bars.
Current Hatred just makes painwheel stronger and with a 2 meter cost you can dhc into it for 1 and get the full benefit of more damage, more armor, faster charges, and all that good stuff. It's not a god send but it cost 2 meter and i think is worth it as a dhc or other purposes and while this may get changed to work differently the point I'm trying to make is that it's worth the cost.
Current feeding time. I would consider eating a character with umbrella an install and while it cost 3 bars and you have to kill the character to use it you get it until umbrella dies or you taunt. You get more ravenous and while new ravenous is it's own conversation if you are trying to do this you are already killing the character and spending the meter anyway so its a nice cherry on top plus the small niche of Val not being able to revive that character is funny like a dead body snap. Basically I feel all the other installs are worth using in some cases and are worth their cost while Beta install isn't.

Ideas to improve install-
Note for all these changes please add a separate meter timer to show how much time she has left instead of just her highlight which during the game is hard to see. And also these changes take into account rc boosting (Meteor strike rc as to not spend meter and gain momentum) and is the reason most of these have the ability to use meter on anything except photo bop taken out. While RC boosting is fun
Make the Super cost 2 bars instead of 3 and let Annie have 2 RC's (1 for every meter spent). Also take away the use of other supers inside install except photo bop which can only be done in install for the cost of 3 meter(still using remaining meter to increase damage just minimum 3) and used with the old qcb.pp input. With just these changes it makes it more enticing to actually activate install. This really wouldn't be outrageous however if this super is used as a dhc I think you should only get 1 rc since you only spent 1 meter on the install. I personally don't think this version of the super that I came up with is too strong but if needed just take away her ability to gain meter in install or have an activation requirement like Annie has to be below 50% health to activate and have her character icon glow or something to show she can use it.
Another version I can see is it costing 1 meter giving her 1 rc in the process, Half the current time she has now, make you gain no meter while active but can use all supers which has their damage slightly increased, and make it like an actual devil trigger making her faster and making her iad lockout shorter but keep all the new moves and mechanics that are in the beta. she can spend 3 bars for photo bop as well with taunt input.
Finally if you want to keep it 3 meter give her 3 RC's always whether it's dhc or raw and return her original heavy fireball start up speed. Take away doing supers except photo bop (can only be done in install) which cost no meter but will take all remaining meter no matter what to add damage to it. Also again, change the input back to qcb.pp.

What each install is supposed to represent.
Original install was honestly just dark phoenix except you can activate it whenever you have meter not just dying with max and that's not fun lets all be honest here. My first idea was making it more how dragon install is in guilty gear while the second is more of how devil trigger is in marvel 3. The third one was just bare minimum changes to make someone say it has potential and could be used but I personally don't like that route of thinking and would prefer either of the other 2.

The point I'm making is while her install is cool it's just not worth spending the meter when you can just do another mix and save it or spend it more efficiently. Let's be clear in install you still have to mix no mater what cause it's not a cash out super so why spend the meter to mix when you can just mix. Also if anyone says just let Annie have infinite rc's they are crazy cause there is a reason in every fighting game with an RC type of mechanic it takes resources or is limited in some way and that's because it's extremely strong. Don't get me wrong if you give her infinite RC in install people will use it and it will be funny but i don't like that way of fixing it not cause it wont work but it would have similar problems to old install plus since she has air dp with no limits she can just dp rc over and over until she is off the screen and can time you out. yes you can just limit how many times she can do rc in the air but this is just a simple problem i came up with and there would be a lot more with that kind of power so instead of trying to balance all of them just don't do it.

 

[iDante_SG]

I'll say this right now: I'm stingy when it comes to changes to Beo since most of what I wanted out of this character was granted to me, shout-outs to Liam, so I'm stuck in my ways as one can put it. But I say this again in here and on numerous Discord servers, but I genuinely believe this is THE Beo that's perfect, for the most part, and fine the way he is. I couldn't ask for a better character from all the buffs, taunt improvements that he can do efficiently as a solo, and new ways to utilize hype in different aspects, EX Blitzer and Chair Recall. I more or less agree to a chunk of what Ruby put out there, but I can't agree with it all.

- What was mentioned here before making it 2-3 active frames instead of it being only one frame, I'm OK with that. MY hella cap idea, and I will get dogpiled for this one, is making it slightly faster as well. That's not even a QoL, that's a buff, so I'm not be tripping about it when it doesn't get faster.

- I know a handful of Beo players who really want the leniency for the EX series to be a thing since it's never ever fun screwing up for that kill combo.
It's easy for me since I can use the macros I never use for teams and assign them the proper buttons for EXs, but I feel for y'all on that. :`)

- I don't agree with removing the chip from chairless. I was already super surprised to see it get buffed from 50 extra chip from normals to 35 since that's the core weakness of that design. And thinking about how dealing with zoners and doing chairless sweep will somehow make me take more damage for trying to inch my way towards them.
Reading what Jesus wrote; I do agree that even I don't know TOO much about chairless resets unique to itself, outside of wacky character specifics in the corner and a "weaker" version of H chair in the corner incoming set up. I know it's a generalization of it, but there's more to resetting with him that LP/LK > high/low/throw, but as I said, I don't know too many resets unique to chairless itself.

Jesus, being chairless has the downside of us losing a DP, losing our better normals, chair c.HP in particular, taking extra chip damage, and our routing, unless you're a lightweight, is worse off as we can't maximize the damage from Wulf Shoot into EX series. At least in the perspective as a solo, Beo/hype gain assists just kinda mitigate the non-sense.

- I believe it's fine as that's the consequence of us losing the chair and having a weakness tied to it. While I would LOVE for chairless double snap to be a real thing as a solo, I def won't hold my breath for it as one way we can already mitigate this is doing your first c.HP into chair recall, do the corner carry combo, blah blah. But I understand that requires three hype do to, which you don't have then it's oh well to me. But it's not like it matters much anyways since Beo can TAUNT during double snap combos and continue afterwards, per team and even as a solo, which is huge for him in my eyes, and that hardly feels consequential. Spent three hype for the recall, gained it back again. "Chairless snaps" are a real thing though, you just have to have any assists that launches the assists higher than the second hit of the trashcan snap, i.e Beat Extend and that can be done anywhere for one bar already.

- I agree with Jesus, it'll absolutely feel rubbish if you just happen to pick up the chair a smidge early on a combo so you spent hype on something you shouldn't have. That's a no from me on that part.

- As a solo, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe it wouldn't be unfair, however when he's being played with hype gaining assists, that quickly turns into "free" combo breakers. Spending three hype, probably get the hit, get it back from assists.

- I...really don't care for holding down Chair Recall as there is no need for it and it can stay as is for all I care. I think it's a meme, honestly. Any actual combo cases where it's used isn't really worth it as it coulda been used for EX series.



What I REALLY want for him as we're throwing pennies in the well here:
- Headless not screwing up his combos, via certain scenarios Blitzers or OTG c.MK, though I believe that's already being looked at.

- What I mentioned before, and others advocating, Beo/Eliza not being a frame perfect c.MP after a headbutt. It working on heavies, would be cool, but I ain't holding my breath for that one.

- Fix the NUMEROUS bugs this man has; most of it from grab stances. He's so riddled with fleas, it's kinda cray cray.
I'm sure all of it has been doc'd already, but whenever Beo gets his patch cycle for it, I'm a happy camper.



I know all in all this is ultimately a team game so what I say may or may not matter much, BUT I still want to voice my takes as someone who's been playing this character since his first Betawulf days years ago as a solo. With in total of playing him on a trio equivalent to two weeks. :^)

 

[Karate jesus]

After hearing what iDante had to say, I thought I should provide my updated thoughts.

• Making chair 5HP faster doesn’t sound too egregious since the speed of most standing heavies range from 18-21 frames. Unless you wanna make it even faster than yeah, it might be cap.

• Maybe I’m being too pessimistic when it comes down to Chairless as a whole since it provides a different playstyle and comparing it to having chair on is unfair. It might not be ideal for solos but we’ll just have to work around it since teams can negate this like you said.

• With Chairless double snap, I can see how Beowulves would just call assist > taunt > convert and rinse repeat and solos being to drag them out and wallbounce to get taunt and convert until they get all their resources for the next character which could be too rewarding while still having the ability to force incoming on solos. It couldn’t hurt to try it but if it’s too good then I’ll be fine to just recall after Chairless 2HP and combo into snap.

• After putting some more thought into Recall keeping its hitbox I think it would be even worse than George since at least he’s restricted to walking on the ground whereas Recall tracks to where Beowulf is.This would mean that you would have to end your combo or have enough invulnerability frames to phase through it, rather than trying to move around it. Another issue is since you action chair recall frame one while the hitbox comes out at frame 17. People will just input this as soon as they land from a reset and just have recall try to turn steal for them.

• Wulf Blitzer and 2MK on OTG not hitting Ms Fortunes head would be a great change since he relies on his OTG pickups to go into a grab ender.

• Bug fixes would greatly be appreciated since stuff like finishing with a headbutt/knee and not getting the crumple, leading Beowulf not having enough time to taunt and be ready for the incoming just feels unfortunate being out of your control.

That's all I got to say for now. Should be interesting to hear more peoples views on Beowulf as discussion is always welcome.

 

[ruby_chan]

After reading from both Dante and Karate Jesus, I can also agree on a lot of the points as well mentioned although for discussion sake, there is some things I like to go further on and/or just have looked into until more feedback and such is presented.




Hype/Resource:
From my understanding and reading from both players, building hype isn't a general issue with Beo to obtain even as a solo.
The current "logjam" seems to be more related to resource assist like A-Train and Salt Grinder enabling the gameplan of 2 touching meterlessly and then potentially ToD-ing the next character for 3 bars but in-turn because a lot of Beo's strong mixups/setups/combos are tied to his resource of chair and hype, he relies on a resource assist to be at his strongest.

QoL/Bug Fixes:
Definitely agree on QoL changes that both mentioned of a buffer after headbutt so that there isn't a one-frame link to combo c.MP after headbutt on both Beo and Eliza. I'm perfectly fine if the buffer helps to make c.MP hit after headbutt more universal on both Light and Medium weights andcontinue to hit c.LK after headbutt on the Heavy weights. I also agree that Fortune Headless shouldn't mess up the combos on scenarios like OTG c.MK.
I know there has been a lot of bugs reported for Beowulf so hopefully a lot of the bug fixes like the crumple bug or throw scaling bug gets patched out soon but I know these things definitely take some time.

Chairless:
I know this is a rather big one to address since I get both parties on the scenario. I can understand Beo not getting chip from normals would be a tall order and chairless needs to have a downside/punishment for not taking care of your resource but as well Beo Chairless already has a lot of downsides outside of taking chip from normals. As it's been mentioned, Chairless Beo already loses A LOT whether it's not having his better neutral buttons like c.HP and j.HP, more potent/threating mixups, psuedo-double jump with j.2HK, and the universal mechanic of snapping (unless when grab stance), I think having the additional chip is excessive. It also doesn't help as much when most combos and mixups already require him to throw his chair via Chair Toss so you'll generally be having to give up your resource/lifeline to continue advantage or just keeping yourself safe. As Karate Jesus mentioned, I think it should feel like Chairless is a "Stance" where in some situations you would want to be Chairless rather than having to Chair equipped always or else you're essentially dead.

Chair Recall:
Again, I know it's a tall ask for recall hitbox to stay active even when getting hit as the fear would be similar to that of Peacock's Georges. While I understand the fear, the rule isn't consistent across the board for projectiles being combo breakers. Current retail examples obviously are Peacock with George, Robo-Fortune with Headdrone (Mine, RAM), Umbrella L bubble (Ptootie), and even to a certain extent (which I know I'm pushing on this one a lot) Dahlia w/ Ice Shot so I would like to believe that if I'm using my all 3 Hype (which hype already being a main resource as it is), there should be a little more compensation. As mentioned before, if this is something that is not plausible, then Recall being 2 Hype would be a good middle ground as it wouldn't be as belligerent if Recall was 1 Hype and as it stands 3 Hype is already everything on the table so at least if its costing 2 Hype then you can get a follow up after.

EX Chair Pickup:
Yea.......no it's just food for thought, was just something that came to mind but I understand where the faults may lie.

Crouch Cancel:
OKAY YES I KNOW THIS IS A SUPER SENSITIVE TOPIC BUT I STILL WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THIS SO PLEASE LET ME SAY WORDS BEFORE THIS PART OF THE DISCUSSION GETS REPORTED.
I do agree with a lot of Karate Jesus's statements. I think a lot of the stuff that it provided to Beowulf was both indeed eye-opening and broken. While it latest very very very shortly, a lot of the things it did ON-HIT was rather interesting as it brought potentially new mix-ups to an already linear character and would have provided a lot more expression on hit that would be just ABC OKI. Now OUTSIDE OF ON-HIT, yea this was problematic since Beo can work around Push-blocks and do instant overheads back-to-back would not be the most fun to fight against on defense. As mentioned, Beo isn't reliant on this but the potential on-hit things it would have provided would have been interesting to see if it got time to be developed more. I also would like to see something similar to this in the future but as to how you go about it, I don't know how it would get done but hopefully it's something that can be done.




That's all I got at the moment but again open for more discussion from the other players and hopefully more news to come in the future.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Please consider adding a Vulkan rendering option (or make OpenGL rendering selectable on Windows). We don't know when dx9 support is gonna die, would be great to future proof!

 

[Will]

I also think Parasoul is fine so I often just leave her alone. The things I wrote down for Parasoul to try awhile ago are:
- M Egret goes slightly further and leaves faster.
- H Egret becomes uninterruptible a few frames sooner.
- 6LP expanded hitbox upwards a bit to catch up forward better.
- Ever so slightly longer throw range.

And adding:
- Seeing about having characters more consistently land in the middle of level 3, as Gelato brought up.

I miss old TK tear so much but I'll just let bygones be bygones there.

I'm also inclined to continue to leaving her jab alone as is despite complaints: you know what they say, comedy is tragedy plus time.

Hi, Liam. Unrelated to Parasoul but I was wondering if there are anymore plans for more Marie changes/adjustments once we get all the other characters out of the way? I've been playing this character since the open beta and while for the most part I do enjoy playing her, there are things about this character that I wish were different. That being said, I don't want to go too in-depth on my thoughts for how I feel about Marie currently if there are no changes planned but figured I'd ask anyways just in case

 

[cloudKing211]

Unsure if any Painwheel discussion has happened recently, but I think that i’d like to bump these ideas I had previously:

HI install Rework:

Reduced to level 1
Catheads level reduced metergain/no metergain for duration
Enhanced level 1 supers cost 2 bars instead of 1 bar/can choose to use 1 bar versions instead

Either 5lk or 2lp changed to be 6 frame startup
2mp drag down on hit
normalizing her point (or stop point moving forward on some of her normals)
tweak jlk and jlp hitboxes, or add few more frames of hitstun (blockstun unchanged)
2mk will reach after max range 2lk

 

[Liam]

Catching up... This post is a bit hasty, sorry if things feel a bit more scattered than usual.

Can we remove the undizzy cost from snapbacks in this beta? I don't know a clear reason why it costs any at all, and was under the impression it should function like a super does for the bar.

I think this is just an oversight because snaps don't define any undizzy value, so it assumes it's a special move and sets it to 20. Fairly straight forward fix, I'll see if I have time.

Yo the 3M not giving Umbrella SNS worked super well I never get that misinput now. Should Parasoul get the same thing? She can get charge moves by doing 1 -> 3 which is weird since afaik no one else can do that.

I actually thought Bella and Band worked like that, but I guess it's just the renoirs - crazy. That would probably resolve a lot of dash up cLK becoming L Egret, but most of those have been ironed out using other methods for her specifically. (After dashing recently, she must end in forward to get L Egret)

The push block change is so crazy to experience. I'm so used to just never getting it half the time and now I get it all the time.

I'm very glad to hear that. Outside of the issue where the dummy doesn't pushblock correctly, hopefully it's stable enough to move to retail eventually.

Can older characters get their hurtboxes looked at when in otg state?

Only say that because Filia is one of the few characters who's hurtbox works with everything I'm not trying to see it get a dlc hurtbox lol

It's not really a DLC hurtbox issue even, most characters (even the initial 8) just have hurtboxes stretching all the way down into the floor during their OTG state to prevent cLK from whiffing under them when trying to do a thing, like this. It's very inconsequential to adjust IMO so that doesn't happen, I've wanted to do it for awhile. Not looking at changing other Filia hurtboxes here.

Could we have assist combinations also looked at?

I'm not planning on looking at this or right stick assist macros right now.

I forgot about this up until just recently and it seems it'd be good qol for inputs if its not too difficult to impelment. When the point is doing a combo can the input lockout on the 2 landing frames be disabled? It makes sense in pretty much every other scenario but when doing a combo it just feels unecessary and leads to me wondering where my input went when it does come up.

I do think it would be somewhat risky and tricky to implement, you also have 4-5 frames to buffer the normal if you just wait after that 2F which feels like a very reasonable window to hit reliably, so I don't really think this is necessary. I worry about unintended side effects, and it's difficult to know "if they're in a combo" or perhaps they just happen to be in hitstun and got hit with a stray projectile on the other side of the screen.

FPS Logging

Please consider adding a Vulkan rendering option (or make OpenGL rendering selectable on Windows). We don't know when dx9 support is gonna die, would be great to future proof!

I empathize, but right now and with the limited time we have available, I think these large scale features aren't realistic for us to implement. FWIW, I'm sure FPS logging could be done by a third party program. NVIDIA already has features that do this automatically in the background from my understanding.

I like the the idea and concept of the new install however it currently isn't actually worth using.

This is not aimed at you spefically at all and I don't mean for you to catch smoke for it: but I have heard this exact same sentiment verbatim for every version of Annie's install we've tried, including the version that is currently live on retail, and even from some of the best players in the world! I am going to go with my gut and if people consider it to be weak I will excitedly take that reality over it being too powerful.

People said Umbrella was bottom one on release for example and look at how that turned out. If things feel super powerful immediately coming out of a beta period, that gives me cause for concern with the way things have naturally worked out over time for all of the DLC characters we've seen starting all the way back to Squigly.

Hi, Liam. Unrelated to Parasoul but I was wondering if there are anymore plans for more Marie changes/adjustments

There are a few things I wanted to look at for Marie but I don't think it will be anything massive, mostly to bunny / taunt behaviours, L Gigan Punch, etc.

---

I only had three days to work last week due to some office stuff, so I'm a bit behind, but the next patch (or the patch shortly after the next patch) is looking at some of these things:

PAINWHEEL

She's gotten some straight up buffs (in addition to QoL) to a bunch of things that I think will really move the needle in terms of consistency effectiveness as a point character. I did nerf install DHC damage and recovery, but it lasts a bit longer when used on point now. Clouds post came in after I wrote this, but many things listed there in his post have been implemented already.

I am not planning on shipping nail storage. I also experimented with hatred guard charging up some thing (the next buer you do is the installed version), but without a good visual indicator, it feels off. I may circle back to that at some point if we have time.

UMBRELLA

I think she should have control over her hunger bar. Not being able to drain it on ur own besides taunting is a good change i think, but having it go to max hunger of the next state takes out all the "management" of hunger management I feel.

The management is engaged with a different, simpler, more streamlined way after the rework which is a pretty big part of how it all fits together. One of the goals of this is to also make Umbrella a bit easier to wrap your head around and play. With your proposed changes, we're back to Salt Grinder, grind 1 pip, SQRT, then fall back into Ravenous, and right back where we started.

I think she should have very weak versions of bubbles in ravenous. M bubble should be an immediate pop instead of a projectile you can pop later. H bubble should be an up close combo tool only. Immediate capture if you're in range but if not, there should be no projectile presence. This is so she still has some combo options in ravenous but without the campy lame neutral she had in retail.

I don't think that's a bad suggestion. I will mess around with it.

Satiated:
She needs to be able to actually combo in this state.

Nothing about her combo game in Satiated changed or was supposed to change, so that's all the same old as you've pointed out. Satiated is sort of a limbo state in between two extremes and always has been, but I don't think that's a bad thing and it wasn't expected to change. She can leave it immediately to enter Overstuffed, or she can wait a bit longer and enter Ravenous.

If it feels like that state is taking too long to end when you're intentionally trying to get to Ravenous and are trying to wait it out, that's totally fine feedback though. We could try bringing back Hunger Meter drain on P normals so that combos speed up towards Ravenous to make that waiting period even shorter, etc. Making sure Satiated has reasonable paths towards Ravenous and Overstuffed is okay, and while it won't be anywhere near as fast and as extreme as old Bobblin' loops, if it needs adjustments that's cool with me, I don't mind either way as long as there's an intentional lock out before you're hitting Ravenous again, hence not being able to Salt Grinder for 1 chew in Ravenous to stay in Ravenous indefinitely.

/!\ Feedback Welcome /!\

Overstuffed:

The mode needs a bit of tuning and the damage is out of control, we're on the same page there. I think it's expected that this version of Umbrella does end up in Overstuffed more often than Ravenous because that's the state she can go to whenever, but I don't think that's a bad thing. If Ravenous is still happening after periods of neutral, or waiting, or intentional taunting, then she's eventually going to enter a state where she becomes very scary and rushes you down for a hit with some extremely powerful tools, which I think is cool!

One thing I'm eyeing here is her ability to leave Overstuffed mid combo by using bubbles. I think it would be more committal to remove that and have her forced to play in Overstuffed for a bit and let it drain out. That way if you go to Overstuffed to cash out on big damage, but the resets and neutral you play with are more committal instead of dropping back down to Satiated for SQRT and other similar things in the same combo you got to Overstuffed.

SUPER GOLD BURST CHANGES

Next iteration, I want make the Super Gold Burst punishable in the 240+ Undizzy start situation instead of always being invincible, but you don't lose out on your Undizzy when activating it (but will still lose some from the counter hit starter) so that it has less reward.

DOUBLE

WRT to M Luger, there are so many strings and tools that force you to pushblock lest the character take their turn infinitely (Marie M Twirl, Squigly stancel, Bella runstop, Parasoul shot, Fukua jHK stuff, Robo sMP, Umbrella SnS, Annie Crescent, Dahlia other shots, to name a few.), particularly on the characters that do NOT have airdashes or similar abilities to open you up for mix up. It felt to me like those that don't IAD into your face (which also end up being pretty high tier characters) often got ground specials with good frame data instead to encourage you to PB them away to reset, but Double didn't have a great one of these. Looking at air dasher pressure, or strings from characters with similar roles to Double and the plus frames they are getting away with (hello Crescent), I wanted to experiment with Double having a way of doing that too if she spaced it well, and also thought it was sort of strange to have the high reward free combo bullet be the safest one, so that got swapped around a bit - and that's that.

So, how do we feel about it? Could also see adjusting the blockstun increase to 2 instead of 4 or something similar, or just going back to how it was before. I don't have super strong feelings.

FUKUA

Next update brings back health drain on shadows, but:
• She restores life spent on that shadow when it hits a character
• Immediate healing sources for shadow drain health (Lv3, armored cmd grab, taunt) are increased.
• Fireballs restore lost life from shadow drain when they return on successful hit.

More avenues to go in and get life back if you're hitting with them, or land cmd grab / Lv3, but holding L Shadow with 99% up time will start to hurt eventually. Doing combos and making a comeback with holding shadows won't hurt her unless you bank on a held shadow reset and it doesn't work out.

BEOWULF

I don't think we'll have much time to change much about this character, but I think that's alright. I am likely going to look at max Undizzy regrab things though, and if he has to spend 1 bar instead of 0 in some scenarios, I think that is alright personally.

Hi! does anyone know if the team is planning on dropping the patch before CB or not?

I will post about this as soon as I can, just double checking with some things internally first. Hopefully will post about this tomorrow!

 

[ruby_chan]

BEOWULF

I don't think we'll have much time to change much about this character, but I think that's alright. I am likely going to look at max Undizzy regrab things though, and if he has to spend 1 bar instead of 0 in some scenarios, I think that is alright personally.

Thanks for the update Liam.
Just wanting to make sure on the max undizzy grab stuff, is this more when it’s 240 UD already or like the usual ender string?
As well as the spending 1 bar instead of 0, I’m assuming that’s the 2 touch scenario stuff?

Unfortunate not much will get changed but it is what it is. But I’ll await for the changes to drop on beta. Thanks for your hard work as always

 

[Taterade]

I don't think Fukua's holding L shadow was enough to need all these rules and hoops to jump through for getting health back compared to the no health drain trial.

 

[Liam]

RELEASE TIMELINE

Note that none of this is set in stone and is still a bit in limbo, so please take this all with a grain of salt.

I'll be blunt and transparent: I have little time left to work on this patch before my attention will be required elsewhere. I would ideally be finished with experimental changes and going into "emergency fix, polish, tweak" mode no later than May 1st, and the time I can be available after then is very limited - until then, 2E has my full attention for a change as you've seen. As you can imagine I have to do some triage here on the scope of future changes.

The patch we'd be playing on at CB would not be the current beta build live on April 23rd here - it would have some more tweaking and tuning and such as I've already mentioned above, but I know it's hard to predict the future changes more than anyone. I will be working as much I realistically can on these, and pushing patches as often as possible.

After that, we have a choice:
• A quick turnaround on a patch for Steam and PS4 is possible before Combo Breaker (that's over a month away) if we'd like to play on a theoretical new patch that is prepared around May 1st, and releases sometime later in May.
• If that's too soon, we could potentially delay the patch until after CB + SGCS is wrapped up, so releasing sometime like June 1st, but there will likely be no additional balance changes during the month of May - we'd just be waiting.
• We could maaaaayyybbeee also spot fix some egregious things for CB + SGCS finals, like just shipping Annie install changes and leaving everything else more or less alone. The feasibility of this though I'd need to check with the rest of the team on, I would really prefer to just delay it or ship it before CB.

We could look at another tournament of retail Ms. Fortune, old Annie install, old Lenny, etc, or we could try and polish up and finish this patch for the end of the SGCS season for something new. Consensus on this will be difficult. I would really prefer to hear from the people who are going to be attending Combo Breaker and competing right now.

 

[tossle]

I'd definitely prefer beta patch for CB. I'm incredibly biased because I do NOT want to compete with old unstable bad bypass Valentine ever again if possible though.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

As someone who is attending ComboBreaker I say let the patch rip beforehand. Time marches forever forward (but I don't think george should on hit).

 

[Adeveis]

A quick turnaround on a patch for Steam and PS4 is possible before Combo Breaker (that's over a month away) if we'd like to play on a theoretical new patch that is prepared around May 1st, and releases sometime later in May.

I'll put my vote in for this option.

 

[Taterade]

If we are not getting additional changes why wait? I'm good on watching a singular other tournament run with retail peacock, fortune, annie, no PGBC bug fix, and unchanged dizzy loop situation. I'm tired of watching this as a player, spectator, TO, person with a working brain etc.

 

[hunter half hands]

I personally dont care about cb results HOWEVER I think a lot of these changes on beta are way to big to push with only a month to learn before the biggest major for the game. I love new Umbrella very much and really like how she has been changed, I am having a lot of fun learning her again and getting a feel for the new character. I dont think its fair, however, to have Umbrella basically replaced entirely right before a major of this scale. Yes we all want pea nerfs and qol for the other characters BUT that is not the game people have been playing for nearly a year till now to prepare for this event and switching that now feels like pulling the rug out from under the competitors. Even Curtain Call, the qualifier for an event at CB we have been prepping for since Frosty, is being run on current retail so it seems just wrong to swap on these players like that. The changes are good, but good or bad that much change to the game this soon before an event of this scale is simply UNFAIR

 

[Ikkisoad]

I did nerf install DHC damage and recovery, but it lasts a bit longer when used on point now.

Already not happy about this, I'm not even saying "please let me keep my super strong plus on block DHC". I just think that Painwheel is just fine, she is already pretty good on point, pair her up with an assist and she does very well. We just see her mid almost all the time because HI for just 1 bar after a super from the point is just way stronger than doing it from point, and that's fine. And I also think her meter build is fine as it is the trade off for doing lots of HURTS.

Characters can have a prefered position, just like Valentine or Miss Fortune are played 99% of the time as points., so it is ok to have a character that is just stronger as mid.

Ofc some strictly QoL changes are welcome to Painwheel, but as someone who has been enjoying her the way she is now for almost 3 years it really saddens me that we are looking to shift her strengths around.

 

[Koala Bare]

I (am attending CB) really feel like the patch should drop after CB, I feel like a patch right before a major is kinda funky. Also, I feel like rushing the patch to drop before the tourney wouldnt give an adequate amount of time to address stuff in the game (though i could be talking out of my ass, im not a game designer)

 

[JasonFGC]

I'm also competing at CB, and while my characters aren't as heavily impacted by the patch, I would rather us run on retail cuz this really is unfair for some of these players, like, as much as I hate peacock, she's gotten some pretty big nerfs and umby's got a huge rework and players need to relearn her stuff. I feel like dropping a patch THIS late into the season is not a good decision, we've seen this with DBFZ, it's too volatile

 

[Iso]

I will only be competing at CB if I win the Final Blockbuster in SGCS, and even then I would be OK running games on retail if it meant players heavily affected by the balance patch don't have to relearn their characters in a month. There are a lot of fantastic Peas and Fortunes and Umbys that would have to relearn routing either partially for optimal killing potential, or from the ground up, worst case

 

[SonicFox]

I say shuffle the cards!

Run the patch before CB!

 

[Chrono_Tata]

I'm not attending CB nor do I consider myself to be a competitive player, so feel free to disregard my opinion, but just speaking in general, if SG wants to be taken seriously as a competitive game, I think pushing out a balance patch just before what most SG players think is the biggest event in the community is unthinkable. Not everyone is a pro player or have time to spend to lab changes less than a month before the tournament. Even in professional sports, I'm pretty sure if major rule changes were implemented with only less than a month left before a major tournament, it would be a riot.

As a compromise, why not run a side tournament on a beta build? I sort of remember that this had been done in the past.

 

[dekillsage]

Peacock players gonna get meme'd by PS4 timing anyways run the new patch if it can be put out at least 2 weeks prior

 

[Triviality]

Peacock players gonna get meme'd by PS4 timing anyways run the new patch if it can be put out at least 2 weeks prior

give me stronger battles

run the patch before cb

6 hit robo beam assist in det mode

 

[Uncle]

As a non-top player who is entering SG at CB, I say let the patch rock, though I do understand if people want the last SGCS tournament to be on the same patch as all the other SGCS tournaments. I also understand if people (me) don't want to play against and/or watch current Peacock and Fortune again for the nth time at our biggest tournament of the year.

 

[JuuseBox]

WRT to M Luger

I'm ngl it's kind of a nothing buff. You get no reward on hit in comparison to other examples like H crescent and Marie M shoulder, and the counterplay options are still very much there. Pbgc upforward is devastating if you overuse it in a blockstring. The plus frames are almost meaningless because it rarely changses the ranges at which you can catch up back, and at far ranges where you do get large plus frames it doesn't naturally string on block and ends up being fairly contestable.

A buff is a buff but I think reducing recovery (especially non super cancellable recovery - maybe even across her whole kit), increasing damage (and there by chip damage), or increasing meter gain, are vastly more useful changes at improving doubles game then blockstun on gun. In fact it just makes it easier to pb and deny the bonus +frames anyway...

often got ground specials with good frame data instead to encourage you to PB them away to reset, but Double didn't have a great one of these

I'd argue doubles version of this is and should be catheads, but her kit is so bad at building meter or threatening chip that it doesn't come together very nicely.

I think if double were to get buffs I think giving her a push in a direction where assists and team choices can better expand on an idea rather than just be a mix of many. Double is a very good character for sure, but it's interesting that the only successful use of double is point + bomber assist abuse. I think a change if any should better cement and create identity on point to create a team building niche past yet another bulldoze special + assist gameplan.

I am going to go with my gut and if people consider it to be weak I will excitedly take that reality over it being too powerful.

Fwiw I think install Annie is very good it just FEELS bad.

Spending 3 bars in a combo and getting under 10k damage, while having meter reduction penalties, not being a safe dhc, and having a one use option - although strong - feels terrible if it doesn't go your way.

I'd argue having it be a level 2 just so it can see more frequent use at least. Even so much as Level 1 with duration and damage decreases as necessary.

Again it's not about strength, it's really just about feel. Robo level 3 always gets value as an extra turn, HI always has safe dhc functionality, but for Annie install it feels like I don't have immediate pay off.

Also If H crescent wasn't the only install assist that drained install time that would be nice. Spending 3 bars and finding opportunities to set up a tag shouldn't be punished with only 9 calls at best of H crescent.

 

[Stuff]

I don't understand the fear of nerfing the most used assist in the game currently. I thought people wanted more assist viability? If all assists can't get buffed then that would do it.

Also regarding Painwheel, I'm really hoping that her flight hurtboxes get fixed so that her foot doesn't get clipped on certain movements, it's very silly.

Overall I don't have much of an opinion on the balancing, it just seems like it'll run its course anyway.

 

[JuuseBox]

Also where do we stand on Dahlia onslaught just not being an airdash for some reason.

What if we at the very least get the ability to call assists during onslaught like every other airdash.

 

[the_rpg_king]

Speaking of Beowulf, it would be nice if he gets a rework on his Hype system. But you know what would also be nice? If he gets an ingame Hype meter. Umbrella got her ingame Hunger meter and Black Dahlia got her ingame ammo meter, so I think that Beowulf gets his ingame Hype meter. It would be exciting as heck, wouldn't it?

 

[SoupIsLumpy]

Speaking of Beowulf, it would be nice if he gets a rework on his Hype system. But you know what would also be nice? If he gets an ingame Hype meter. Umbrella got her ingame Hunger meter and Black Dahlia got her ingame ammo meter, so I think that Beowulf gets his ingame Hype meter. It would be exciting as heck, wouldn't it?

Feels like that would just add unneeded visual clutter, Dahlia and and Umbrella's meters are there to track: What ammo types Dahlia has and in what order and What State Umbrella is in and (more importantly) for how long. A Hyper meter would just be there to count to three? Ignoring the fact that he reminds you of his hype count constantly, it's also far less important to know how much hype beowulf has because it's a difference of "get hit and you take a lot of damage" or "take a hit and probably die"

 

[the_rpg_king]

Feels like that would just add unneeded visual clutter, Dahlia and and Umbrella's meters are there to track: What ammo types Dahlia has and in what order and What State Umbrella is in and (more importantly) for how long. A Hyper meter would just be there to count to three? Ignoring the fact that he reminds you of his hype count constantly, it's also far less important to know how much hype beowulf has because it's a difference of "get hit and you take a lot of damage" or "take a hit and probably die"

Don't worry. It's gonna be divided into three bars to alleviate visual clutter. That reason for that is because Beowulf can use his Hype to unleash enhanced special moves and his Hype cancel. Besides, Annie can be able to enhance special moves, Star Cancel and more during her reworked Star Power.

 

[ahemtoday]

Don't worry. It's gonna be divided into three bars to alleviate visual clutter. That reason for that is because Beowulf can use his Hype to unleash enhanced special moves and his Hype cancel. Besides, Annie can be able to enhance special moves, Star Cancel and more during her reworked Star Power.

One solid meter and a meter divided into three bars are the exact same amount of visual clutter, I'd like to point out.

---

EDIT: As for my own thoughts on character-specific UI elements. It's true that pre–season 1 characters don't need them, but now that we have characters that do, I think the cat's out of the bottle. At this point, it makes sense to give Squigly stances and Beowulf hype UI elements to track them. It feels slightly odd that some character-specific resources get marked onscreen and other ones don't, even if there's a slight difference in complexity between them.

Of course, with art assets limited, I don't think any of that would really be possible, so maybe the point's moot.

 

[the_rpg_king]

One solid meter and a meter divided into three bars are the exact same amount of visual clutter, I'd like to point out.

---

EDIT: As for my own thoughts on character-specific UI elements. It's true that pre–season 1 characters don't need them, but now that we have characters that do, I think the cat's out of the bottle. At this point, it makes sense to give Squigly stances and Beowulf hype UI elements to track them. It feels slightly odd that some character-specific resources get marked onscreen and other ones don't, even if there's a slight difference in complexity between them.

Of course, with art assets limited, I don't think any of that would really be possible, so maybe the point's moot.

I see what you're going. Well, in this case, I'll take back my Hype meter idea and suggest UI elements to track Squigly's stances and charged status and Beowulf's current Hype level instead. That could be adequate.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Posting here because it's relevant, as this is probably the most active thread on the entire site.

A recent site upgrade caused some moderator statuses (like mine) to no longer work and therefore not give mod privileges. This has since been corrected. Unfortunately, during this time, the approval queue was not appropriately showing users who were waiting to get their accounts and post verified. I just went through and approved (or blacklisted because they were bots) 537 accounts. For those of you that had a post stuck in "waiting moderator approval" I apologize; it should show up here now. If it doesn't, please feel free to post it again. Sorry about the inconvenience! Now that the issue is resolved I'll be more on top of the approval queue so we can make sure everyone gets their 2 cents in on the balance update.

 

[the_rpg_king]

I was able to make a post about wanting a three-bar Hype meter for Beowulf before that happened, but I was told that it can cause visual clutter as I learned about it, so instead, a UI element that can track Squigly's stances and charged state, Valentine's equipped vials and Beowulf's Hype level would be nice.

 

[HellCofer180]

One solid meter and a meter divided into three bars are the exact same amount of visual clutter, I'd like to point out.

---

EDIT: As for my own thoughts on character-specific UI elements. It's true that pre–season 1 characters don't need them, but now that we have characters that do, I think the cat's out of the bottle. At this point, it makes sense to give Squigly stances and Beowulf hype UI elements to track them. It feels slightly odd that some character-specific resources get marked onscreen and other ones don't, even if there's a slight difference in complexity between them.

Of course, with art assets limited, I don't think any of that would really be possible, so maybe the point's moot.

Since there are some character resources that are less complex than others, why not reuse some art assets like character sigils to function like UI elements to track their resources, similar to how SG mobile does it? It's gonna cost a lot less this way instead of having to make new UI elements to accommodate for them.