The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[Triviality]

There is, potentially, a tiny parallel, to be drawn between this and the mass exodus of Fukua players (myself included) that occurred when "the shadow zoning neutral and the M Shadow vortex left right into a truck load of damage, gameplan" (her identity at the time, if you will) was removed.

The mass exodus for Fukua is kinda different since that was a complete rework of her kit/gameplan (Shadows), Annie's changes we're just kind of sweeping nerfs that didn't fundamentally change how she played

She got completely different shadows, Annie just kinda lost her aerial valentine left rights and some routes

Otherwise thank you for the words, looking forward to it!

please give me back mbomb

 

[the_rpg_king]

I am terribly terribly sorry I haven't been around to discuss all this at length with everyone, just keeping up with Season Pass development and deliverables has occupied more than all of my time. For those of you who left your feedback here, even if you didn't stick around to discuss it with others (something that can be taxing on the mind, I know as well as anyone), I have read it all - thank you!

We're still focusing on finishing Umbrella (that last 5% of polish always ends up taking 10 times longer than expected), creating her tutorial, trials, palettes, finishing her voice acting integration, polishing up the final version of her stage, etc, and preparing for future characters, so not as much time has gone into balance patch iteration as we're used to. That said, I think most of the contentious "experiments" that have been brought up that I've wanted to try, have been tried. I also think we can do without most of them!

I am going to give a quick update on things to come and a bit of a brain dump here, as that's all I have time for at the moment, but all of this stuff is always subject to change so quote me on things with great risk or even peril.

• I think a big portion of non-Annie experiments will see adjustments and probably removals. The metaphorical bucket of old character experiments that I'm aware of is more or less empty now, and I prefer to keep it that way. In general, players may be encouraged to "hold that" more often than they like when it comes to the older characters in the game.
  
  
• Annie (and other DLC characters after their releases, I'm sure) are still going to see changes. If Annie's effectiveness on point is going to stay closer to where it was before, then her DHC synergy and DHC damage is going to be reduced even further for example. We need pros and cons for picking different characters and team building. This part in bold: Choosing one character over another with benefits and drawbacks (like min-maxing a build in an RPG where you can never fully unlock every perk or max every stat) is healthy, and characters that check too many boxes make me uncomfortable. Characters will see adjustments if they encroach on the diversity of Skullgirls team building.
  
  
• For characters that have received larger changes recently (most notably, Eliza, Robo-Fortune, and to some extent Beowulf), we may try a few things at times to make sure things are in a healthy spot.
  
  
• The next build also has a ton of Umbrella changes, so stay tuned for those.

Hoping to get another update out soon (tm) on Steam, going to go back to focusing on that now!

So that's why there has not been a new Beta update for two months.

 

[Lawnalog]

After playing quite a bit of beta Peacock I feel the slow start up on m bomb and extra cooldown on lvl2 item are great changes for the game. But can we maybe add a frame or two of extra hitstun on s.hp to make it easier to do the s.hp > m bomb > l bomb combo??

 

[Stuff]

I think a big portion of non-Annie experiments will see adjustments and probably removals. The metaphorical bucket of old character experiments that I'm aware of is more or less empty now, and I prefer to keep it that way. In general, players may be encouraged to "hold that" more often than they like when it comes to the older characters in the game.

Dang, is this ggs for pw buffs? If so ggs I'll shake your hand, I appreciate the open forum to at least try.

 

[Shnarfl]

Dang, is this ggs for pw buffs? If so ggs I'll shake your hand, I appreciate the open forum to at least try.

Damn, imagine being such a fake painwheel player that you'd ever stop complaining. Where's the passion? Where's the heart of a true complainwheel?


Speaking of, I think something painwheel players would appreciate is a reduction of the start up frames of M and H nails between the charging part and actually releasing the nails. I don't think I've ever seen fully charged nails ever get launched, just because it's so unintuitive to wait so long before the fly cancel.

Basically, instead of Start -> Charge -> Long wait -> Release, make it Start -> Charge (longer if needed to compensate) -> Very short wait -> Release

All those charged nails that never got to see the light of days would appreciate it :)

 

[Stuff]

FWIW I think Painwheel is S tier (on paper) it's the only reason I picked her up, I thought she was the best and I still don't think I'm wrong so I was a very fake Painwheel haha. Also in playing Painwheel (debate-ably to high level) you notice just how many forced limitations she has compared to the rest of the cast, Flight cieling Flight timer, Flight cancel limit, Buer spending flight, flight speed is penalized going backwards, flight momentum is penalized if going backwards etc. (this game really hates how I want to play Painwheel [I can't even safe dhc to install to just throw nails anymore since the game forces you to play rushdown because of the timer, surprise surprise {A probably indirect nerf from reworking install, it's been years but I still miss her dammit}]). Most of her freedom is taken away, at least the parts of Painwheel I think are fun and interesting. She's not used in point for the most part, she's just the clean up or safe dhc, which makes me sad, I'd like her to be more of a point character but Sentinel was an anchor for the most part too so I guess that's just the fate of the flight characters.

The beauty of Painwheel is that someone else can complain for me (although even amongst Painwheel players I think I'm the odd one of the group LOL so maybe not).

I just want my theoretically S+ tier character to function in practice. I don't think the random turning around is really fixable without causing more bugs though so I know it's probably really hard to give something to PW without causing lots of problems. My Painwheel wishlist hasn't really changed much so if you wanna read that over, it's everywhere.

How's that for complaining? I'm old now I got other Stuff to do so if that's that then I'm good to go, if not I'm ready for round 2 lol.

Thanks for reading my headache inducing everything, Liam!

 

[Nuuance]

...maybe im reading it wrong but sounds like obscure experiments not explicitly asked for...not actual changes wanted for characters who havent had any major updates in years/arent finished. guessing strong established moves was mostly meant at this point in regards to 'hold that.' off your earlier thing tho, dont think half the cast needs even half the justification put forth for even more notable things. Asking for things you want with a character youve hung tough with & paid your money to support just like everyone else w/reasoning isnt complaining. half joke i get it, just saying. Like you said, open forum. The game will evolve regardless so might as well speak up.

 

[Liam]

Here's an update:

Skullgirls 2nd Encore - Beta Mode Update [2022-03-14] - Steam News

Hello, Liam here. It's been awhile since our last update! Here's what we've been working on: Creating and testing Umbrella's character tutorial and her trials. Polishing up the new version of Umbrella's stage. Finalizing all of Umbrella's palettes. Finishing Umbrella's gameplay, per all of the...

store.steampowered.com

EDIT: There was an error populating the Ms. Fortune changes, those changes should be live soon when Steam updates the page. Perhaps 30 minutes or so.

 

[BellaFeng4Eternity]

Thanks, Liam! Really liking the new changes to some of the pre-Season 1 characters and Annie and Umbrella. I'm interested in seeing where the game goes moving forward during Season 1 and onwards since this is the most balanced the game's been right now.

Now on an unrelated note, please make Fortune's Headless not break combos and I'm good.

 

[SonicFox]

In terms of Annie it feels great with most of her point stuff being reverted.

Something of note that I said before is that install *maaaaay* be too expensive now? Like I'd rather prefer a timer on it now rather than it be meter based if it's gonna be two bars like PW super. I feel I run out of meter too quickly if I want to make install meaningful to use in neutral.

The only other thing with Annie is that I think Meteor Strike should scale a little less than the way you made it or be just like retail. I don't see it becoming another Pillar of Creation mainly being that the point character DHCing into Meteor Strike must meet two requirements: Not using OTG, AND having them be in the corner, VS in retail Pillar of Creation being a MUST USE at all times. If teams want to create synergy around stinger to maximize damage off of it, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, even with how it functioned in retail. They both have their places now in this version as DHC's, with pillar always guaranteeing a conversion ANYWHERE and allowing an easy reset attempt into death. I think using Stinger for "corner" damage isn't necessarily a thing to be scared of, and it's functionality nowhere near rivals that of Pillar. Certain characters don't work well with MS while others work EXTREMELY well with it (Like Para and Double love it) and I see no reason for those that maximized their damage off of that over Pillar to get nerfed in that way.

It's one of those "I think it's fine staying the way it was" changes. It simply reminds me of a Diamond Dynamo conversion or something like that at least.

Other than that no gripes with Annie! I'm pretty happy with this build of her! Thank you dash and j.mp...

 

[Vineko]

About the Annie changes:
I'm fine with the nerfs being reverted, and I have no problem with the nerfs on Pillar of Destruction. However, I just don't get the Star Power changes. Star power for me was a really good annie mechanic, it expanded gameplay expression and allowed for creative and different routes and gameplans. It wasn't weak, but it certainly wasn't broken, and wasn't deserving of such heavy nerfs.

As far as commitment goes, using install was always very risky, since, against experient oponents, if you get hit even once you risk losing all your bar for nothing, which affects not only Annie but the rest of the team as well. Besides, using install was already a heavy burden on the meter, meaning that you are commiting a lot of resources for things that you could do a lot safer without using install. And that was even before the heavy nerfs on the cost of Star Power on this new patch.

So I ask that the changes on Star Power be reverted, as the install was never the problem in the first place.

Here are some clips where I use the install for a variety of reasons, showing that it really allowed for creativity and expression.

https://www.twitch.tv/skullgirlsbr/clip/AgreeableStrongCrabsChocolateRain-AOyzllMHgbIOBIBy

 

[Aristal]

My opinion on Eliza's changes:
I'm happy that the character is getting some attention but I'm also really worried about what exactly the devs are going to do with her, Sekmeth always felt like a high risk high reward way of playing Eliza, and now with the changes do carpenter axe its even riskier because it was hard to punish?

I know it could be frustrating to be playing against Sek and see her backflipping away from you, but she always lost the trade there even if you blocked because every time you block a mix up from Sek she loses HP and she keeps losing even more every time she takes the risk to do something again, and yes i know she would generally get that HP back if she eventually gets the hit but the punish you get on her would also be huge if she didn't get to recover all the HP she risked.

This changes not only makes one of the worst characters in the game even worse but also takes away the freedom of playing the character the way you want because of how limiting using Sekmeth is.

So i honestly don't see a reason to not let Eliza have a strong high risk high reward option on her hit (its not like there's other characters in the game that have low risk high reward options)

Don't get me wrong i loved the other changes and i feel like they are a step on the right direction but i don't feel like those changes were big enough to make her deserve some nerfs in other places of her kit

 

[Taterade]

"While the power of Sekhmet is reduced, base Eliza's power is increased as a trade off."
These changes would have been fine as a test if they hadn't come with a Sehkmet neutral and Crimson Scourge scaling nerf at all, considering the consensus on Eliza still being the outright worst character.


Sehkmet losing "skeleton footsies" on 5HP as a trade off for minor adjustments Eliza already needed before it became a gameplan is not the way, it already had the health loss on executing a move, backdashing and just for existing as downsides.
Throne is just a slow mid (in more way than one) special that is awkward to use and just doesn't have the properties to justify using it. The sweep buff is good but not a huge game changer in the match ups that already abused Eliza's weakness vs projectile zoning, but I'll reserve that until I've run into more than one peacock/robo to try and feel it out.
I'm down to find out that the light->heavy was a massive routing buff that I just missed the point of entirely but even if it is, it would be the only thing even remotely close to actually increasing base Eliza's power.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I thought the Fortune nerfs were pretty fair and didn't need to be reverted. I'll need to play this update more to have further feedback.

 

[Makdeo]

I thought the Fortune nerfs were too severe and did need to be reverted. I'll need to play this update more to have further feedback.

 

[Kima]

[Eliza]
I feel like the new Eliza changes are a step into the right direction!

Although the current changes for her are tiny, and aren't enough to give her the justice she needs to be on pair with other characters in this game. I'm hoping that the changes won't stop there, and she will continue to receive new updates to better reflect her strengths as a space control / punish character.

I don't personally mind Sekhmet being tuned down if that's necessary, but she needs relevant changes if you are planning to do that.


[Annie]
I believe she is in a good spot right now, Pillar is now a good super when Annie is on point again, and it doesn't feel unfair when doing it as a DHC anymore.

Her install however, not so much. 2 bars to activate it is a bit too expensive for what it gives, not only that but it gives tons of meter to your opponent when you are using it for combos, making it a very questionable choice unless you are planning to finish the match right there.

 

[Lawnalog]

I'm really loving the Annie level 3 jump change, the mix you get off of it is way to much fun ( I actually think its really cool ).

 

[Silktail]

I have a few thoughts so ill just seperate by character
Ms. Fortune-

I really do think that Ms. fortune's Rekka bug where the meter gained is always unscaled should be addressed. That was left in to keep her identity as a battery but she already has access to awesome frontloaded starters that generate alot of bar

there is no reason to leave a bug in intentionally that increases the on hit value of a character that has extremely good neutral

Double-
I really like the double changes but i still think annie overshadows some of the roles shed typically play

I'd love to see some power put back into doubles lvl 5. while annie has more versitile tools like install, and more damage efficient tools like pillar(and also install again), it'd be nice for double to have that big spender option to dhc into. I think it'd allow annie to maintain her identity as a great all arounder and generally good at spending bar, and doubles identity as the meter hungry toolbox.

Filia-
man i was using that airdash backwards through grounded opponents thing. Fair enough i guess but can i get wider drill hitboxes. they are cool anti air tools but almost impossible to commit to in any sane way.

Robo-
happy ;)

Painwheel-

she is extremely slow on the ground to incentivize air options, i get that. But i feel like she suffers too hard. I know alot of pw players talk about microspacing issues on buer but im not initiated enough to do any of that so i wont. i think clk has no right being over 10 frames, I could see it going down to as low as 8 frame startup but that might be getting ahead of myself. Generally, painwheels unarmored buttons should be a little faster in my opinion. thats why they were put there. yet still they are markably worse than everyone elses tools. she jab is 8 frames and its not even big. maybe if u need a drawback u can make her take more dmg in hatred gaurd? im spittballing.

Umbrella-
happy :0

Fukua-
I think sonic was right when they said that regular grab was not used enough. it should heal all ur shadow health. Its techable, less damaging and builds less bar. GIVE HER THAT HEALTH BACK. i dont think messing with her damage or neutral is a great idea. shes interesting to play in that shes a lil more honest till she gets a hit then she gobbles u up. SHE NEEDS SUSTAINANCE.

Peacock-
I like the shadow change but i think it should also apply to lvl 3 item. if the peacocks are able to hold the item just a bit longer to circumvent being punished, the nerf doesnt mean all that much, even if it will make the difference in a few scenarios.

Parasoul-
please make jab -2 on hit so u can block ssj after jabbing big band at max range.(pretty please)

Valentine-
Genuinely unsure if not always autocorrecting when youd expect is part of her identity but if that was something youd like to fix(i would) you could back up her center point in all the normals that cara on just the first frame. This would keep their crossup properties but allow valentine to be for lack of a better word LESS BLIND. edit-pls make bypass super a hitgrab so assists dont completely invalidate it.

 

[SonicFox]

Even though Im FAIRLY certain the Level 3 change with Annie is a bug, I think the bug that is occurring is KIIIIIIIIIIIIINDA sick lmaooo. MAKE IT A FEATURE

 

[Triviality]

Sekhmet being nerfed to be locked out of demon flip from from heavy button makes no sense when a good number of the cast all had options against that and your spending life to do demon flip

 

[Nuuance]

it just feels like there’s a general fear to change much of anything…and it’s deflating. some of the positive changes are a start but in all honesty this zero-sum balancing method is weird to me. since when has Sg been so conservative. Not even conservative, It’s borderline anemic rn. why talk about these things or have a beta channel/forums if more than half of what’s said is ignored & not even addressed. at least make past heated exchanges count for something. Or was this just to let players let off steam & not actually have substantial input like a placebo? It’s been a pattern from the beginning of this process. Annie’s install is deleted essentially…I’ve given up on her even having a viable core mechanic. robo is a cooler install character only needing one more bar & Eliza already hamstringed, but gets hamstringed more? I don’t get it. Meanwhile anonymous strive surveys are being paid attention to more than a tried & true community That’s been through quite a bit.

i truly understand fun can be a hot button word so it’s purely subjective & don’t wanna come off the wrong way but this isn’t fun. And doesn’t even make me feel bad about just putting the game down rn. I get this is a transitional period so stuffs understandably messy — but the direction things is well past concerning. if things keep going this way…I don’t see things improving. the politeness will turn into silence, then indifference.

let the characters be free. Please.

This game isnt so fragile that some shakeups will ruin things No matter how dire some changes seem. end of the day it’s just a game but again, this doesn’t motivate me or make me look forward to future updates at all to be plain

 

[Aristal]

Annie's changes were a bit weird to me, mainly the install changes.

In the post of the balance changes, the reasoning about the install changes was that her install would need a little bit of a meter commitment but the install was always a meter commitment, if you activate it and start using normals in neutral you are committing meter, if you activate it mid combo to do more damage you are committing meter, and even if you activate it and gets hit you are also committing meter, with all that being sad i see no reason why she needs even more commitment when using her install power.

And about the pillar changes i agree that the super was really strong on retail but i honestly didn't find it to be that strong on the last beta patch, i can see it needing more adjustment because it was reverted to be useful when used on point but i think it was a little bit overdone, from 70% scaling to 40% was a little bit too much IMO, i would suggest maybe leaving it at 55% scaling, this way if you want to do an early DHC combo you can still do it and gain some damage instead of actually doing more damage by just using super at the end of the combo.

IMO the same mistake that happened on the Eliza backflip changes also happened on the Annie changes, options that weren't even that strong being nerfed because other parts on her kit got buffed and making the character have less freedom on how they can be played.

 

[Sg Hen]

Ms. Fortune-

I really do think that Ms. fortune's Rekka bug where the meter gained is always unscaled should be addressed.

Fortune rekka meter gain scales like normal. It is somewhat higher than other rekka style specials like Eliza 623LP~MP~HP

Fortune 236Px3 builds 33.38 meter at minimum scaling: 2.5x3 kara meter+9x2 on-hit no scaling+7.88 on-hit 0.875 scaling
Fortune 236Px3 builds 12.9 meter at max scaling: 2.5x3 kara meter+1.8x3 on-hit 0.200 scaling
Eliza 623LP~MP~HP builds 22.25 meter at minimum scaling: 2.5x3 kara meter+6x2 on-hit no scaling+5.25 on-hit 0.875 scaling
Eliza 623LP~MP~HP builds 11.1 meter at max scaling: 2.5x3 kara meter+1.2x3 on-hit 0.200 scaling

Fortune's rekka is obviously good for meter build but as far as I know it's not bugged, and in my (maybe biased) opinion the meter build isn't that crazy on it especially at max scaling.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

After playing more last night I prefer the assist + teleport nerf for Peacock over the current one. Assist + teleport makes it so punishing the teleport is basically impossible with armored assists. I don't even care as much that teleport is as good as it is without the vulnerable frames, it's more that teleport + assist is a really skewed risk/reward option, you can basically just do it and the opponent has to hold it.

However, if anyone has labbed any way to deal with stuff like throw george, teleport + lock and load please let me know. Peacock had a nerf replaced with another nerf, so this one might be more substantial.

If item drop + assist is here to stay, teleport needs to have slightly more startup or something so you can actually hit her out of it. I don't really think there is anything in Skullgirls close to as powerful as this option in terms of risk vs reward. I'm fine with Peacock having a strong getaway tool in teleport, I think the community consensus is just that teleport + assist is just TOO MUCH for a character as strong as Peacock.

I've been on record saying Fortune and Peacock aren't THAT much better than the other characters and I truly believe this. I think you give Fortune the j.lk nerf (the fiber one was pointless and doesn't make the character less strong if we're being honest, people may disagree but the fiber nerf doesn't really address anything) and Peacock teleport + assist nerf, I think those characters are normalized and that's really all you have to do. It's also all you really can do as people are always going to complain about strong characters in fighting games. A full rework of Fortune head stuff is unlikely to happen at this point in my opinion, I'd imagine, players will just need to learn to route around it.

I feel these two nerfs is a good compromise between "people are always going to complain about strong characters making balancing impossible" and "these two characters could be toned down a little bit".

edit: I feel like the Peacock teleport nerf is substantial enough to matter, however, I still think she needs the item drop nerf as well

 

[Triviality]

This entire set in particular showed rabbles mastery and understanding of dealing with the peacock + armored assist matchup, and he vehemently hated that character

a bunch of teleport setups getting dodged

Funny honorable mention of swifts muscle memory getting me a free counter hit because he wanted to do that thing hes been doing for years on the last beta cycle

Dont mind me just dumping all the footage i can find of H-Teleport + Assist or + Bomb or Both not being free

I could go into it but theres so much counterplay available to most teams that a lot of players HAVE adopted to start taking more consistent tournament sets. Swiftfox has been getting hammered by people finally knowing how to play against his team

People need to be more anticipatory of peacock much like one is anticipatory of Double 50/50's. Yes they are strong and sometimes you hold it whether it because of the situation or character, but its so beatable and can lose all momentum for a player if done incorrectly or poorly. PME as a player is so genius because he plays in a way that shuts down peacocks fullscreen gameplan

@FuLLBLeeD

I also think fortune is fine

Headless Fortune and Peacock as characters force you to play a different game, and I and other players like that, its rewarding to beat them

Also there are tons of stuff in Skullgirls as a game where you kind of just have to hold it. Battle Butt + Brass, Annie Pressure, Squigly Orb, Robo Missiles, Pillar Butchers, Beam Nail, DP assists

idk i might just be spouting cause im not home rn but yeah once again these characters and the setups that are in argument of adjustments are still beatable, I as a player when going against other peacock players have beating their cheap setups in the back of my mind. I have other players who are out here doing a great job learning coutnerplay that I have to adjust to

 

[Triviality]

Regarding Eliza

The philosophy behind taking away Sekhmet form strength as "Compensation" for base form strength doesnt make sense because Sekhmet form strength is already low as it is. Heavy Axe into demon flip literally puts a "Cilia slide me" post it on her back

The base form Buffs feel nice, especially that change for lights to link into heavies, but that honestly feels like quality of life rather than an attempt to bring Eliza into the higher echelons of strength for other characters, moreso when other parts of her kit are being toned down

Eliza still has no setplay despite properties of her kit that would suggest otherwise and her base form specials arguably have more situations where they hinder her than help her.

idk man eliza needs love

 

[SonicFox]

With more testing on Annie's Install, I definitely think its too expensive for what its trying to accomplish. I can't even get camera super out anymore ;_;

 

[Taterade]

Eliza throne: this move is still in the dumpster fire, if it wants to be useful it might as well be a low with a pop up backwards towards its origin like Clide/L Shadow. As an assist it sometimes catches people throwing projectiles at the point but due to the distance involved you get conversions like it was a full screen brass call minus the armor, damage and presence. On point the best it can be is another way to try to 50/50 on a hard knockdown but its still just bad.
Forced myself to use it a bunch today and even trying to work it into the gameplan on purpose its just a why bother?

 

[JuuseBox]

I have the following concerns about Filia:

*I think filia should have better ways of hit confirming and should be more rewarded for getting a hit considering she is the rush down character
*C.mk being her only consistent hit confirm scales her combo and should not be her only option
*S.mp as a move lacks use as a spacing tool and as a block string move as being as plus as it is and as much block stun as it has is counter intuitive for its use
*C.hp as a normal lacks any use as a poking tool as filia lacks any good specials to cancel to for reward
Gregor/hairball being the only options is not a strong option as each are very minus on block
*My main concerns are over the difference in utility of Filias s.lp and Fortunes s.lp as it appears fortune has way more uses for her frame 5 jab
*Drill as a special feels too specialized to be a strong neutral option as it’s hit box and frame data are not strong. I would like to see either the frame data or the hit box improved to make the move more useful

I welcome any discussion over these points and welcome any counters or opinions on these suggestions

 

[hamie96]

I have the following concerns about Filia:

*I think filia should have better ways of hit confirming and should be more rewarded for getting a hit considering she is the rush down character
*C.mk being her only consistent hit confirm scales her combo and should not be her only option
*S.mp as a move lacks use as a spacing tool and as a block string move as being as plus as it is and as much block stun as it has is counter intuitive for its use
*C.hp as a normal lacks any use as a poking tool as filia lacks any good specials to cancel to for reward
Gregor/hairball being the only options is not a strong option as each are very minus on block
*My main concerns are over the difference in utility of Filias s.lp and Fortunes s.lp as it appears fortune has way more uses for her frame 5 jab
*Drill as a special feels too specialized to be a strong neutral option as it’s hit box and frame data are not strong. I would like to see either the frame data or the hit box improved to make the move more useful

I welcome any discussion over these points and welcome any counters or opinions on these suggestions

ratio

 

[Calexe]

bad english warning
After playing/watching people in this patch:

Spoiler: Umbrella

- I still don't know why DP had to lost throw invencible:
Again, it's slow, has a big dead zone, needs otg or bar to convert off, and now has a forced damage scaling.
I was hoping for at least, a startup speed reduction or even puddle interaction, but it's just nerfed now.
Please consider reverting back the full invulnerable on this, or at least giving it some damage back.

- jHP xx [anything] feels weird:
I think it's changed to avoid people to do jHP xx M bubble > heavy normal.
Now some of her hitconfirms in yellow/red are just weird, having Salt Grinder active frames reduced to 2 from 5 also affect a lot some safe routes (for example, Retina DHC > jHP > Salt Grinder > cHP)
It also affect her doublesnap confirm (jLK/jLP > delayed jHP).
As nope.avi said, this probably doesn't gut Umbrella but for sure feels weird to use/do.

- Forcing me to play around Ravenous feels bad:
I know I'm not a strong player but I loved to play around Satiated and having the choice of going Overstuffed for damage or Ravenous when I needed to play even more aggressive.
Now, with some of Hungern moves got changed to deal less damage when Satiated, we're forced to play around Ravenous, and she can't pass to Overstuffed from Ravenous without resources (puddles, stagger, assists, bar, etc)
Her damage in Ravenous is just the same with resources and sometimes, even more higher than Overstuffed, so her problem with "having way too much damage in Overstuffed" just became "having way too much damage in Ravenous".

- Some weights still way too inconsistent to do combo and routes.
Medium weights characters force you to do less creative routes, Band is pretty hard to use puddles and Double (IMO) is impossible to do overstuffed combos.
Tongue Twiss > Slurp Puddles can't even save otg agains't some character doens't matter how high it hits and regular Slurp loops are just possible into light characters
Can we have a small bounce increase in Overstuffed vs medium/heavy AND a QoL to Slurp Puddles?

- I don't like the idea of Wish Maker having its fuction denied by assists
It's okay to have collision with other projectiles and vanish when Umbrella is hit, but calling assists to destroy the long time tiny bubble is just sad

- Please, give me back Tongue Twister > Retina > dash fHP back
Having puddles is just another resource option, and I think it's okay to have both options to convert of Tongue Twister

Spoiler: Annie

- Star Power a bit too expensive now

- I don't this it's necessary to nerf Meteor Strike DHC
It's not like PoC that gives you a free time to hitconfirm, you have to save otg and/or be in the corner and the damage got reduced.
In all cases, I suggest a 60% scaling instead 45%

Spoiler: Eliza

- Sekhmet losing backflip after 5H is not good at all
I mean, why? She's losing her HP and she can't recover this HP loss without sacrificing a big portion of her damage (Sek 5M, 5LLL, Bite).

- Throne still really niche to use
Nothing to add here, at this point I think it's impossible to buff throne at all

 

[oddberry]

I have the following concerns about Filia:

*I think filia should have better ways of hit confirming and should be more rewarded for getting a hit considering she is the rush down character
*C.mk being her only consistent hit confirm scales her combo and should not be her only option
*S.mp as a move lacks use as a spacing tool and as a block string move as being as plus as it is and as much block stun as it has is counter intuitive for its use
*C.hp as a normal lacks any use as a poking tool as filia lacks any good specials to cancel to for reward
Gregor/hairball being the only options is not a strong option as each are very minus on block
*My main concerns are over the difference in utility of Filias s.lp and Fortunes s.lp as it appears fortune has way more uses for her frame 5 jab
*Drill as a special feels too specialized to be a strong neutral option as it’s hit box and frame data are not strong. I would like to see either the frame data or the hit box improved to make the move more useful

I welcome any discussion over these points and welcome any counters or opinions on these suggestions

honestly i feel like filia doesnt really need help in specifically the hit confirm area.
* cr.mk reaches deceptively far and is a good poke, and is easily confirmable. yeah it scales but you're already playing a low damage character AND you're going to reset anyways so it's not really substantial.
*s.mp is plus 8 on block. if they pb you're still plus 5 and can still push your turn. this button is really good i don't really see the point in buffing it unless you're talking as like a poke. which isn't really the point of that button anyways.
*c.hp is also a very good button. i understand that this normal exists on 2 other characters with easier hitconfirms from it, but they simply have different uses. filia is a short range character so it makes sense that she would have a harder time converting.
*drill is actually kind of bad i'll give you that one. i just think touching drill would be dangerous bc if it was good ppl would complain about it and it would get reverted.
to conclude, filia is a short range character that excels at short range. it makes sense that her longer range attacks would be weaker. also gregor solves like any hit confirm problem if ur fast enough

 

[Halibel]

My opinion on the Eliza changes is that the nerf to sekhmet was not a good thing in my opinion. I can explain why in my opinion
it should not have been nerfed.

Sorry for my English in advance.

The backlip Sekhmet uses is the only defensive tool sekhmet has, which doesnt even beat every option the enemy has to punish it even if you successfully backlip. In my opinion i believe that people feel like they "HAVE" to punish sekhmet and disregard the disadvantage she puts herself in trying to mix with the low > high. Sure she jumps back but she lost a substantial amount of health for even trying to mix the opponent and get rewarded for it.

I myself have been using sekhmet at a very high rate in my matches cause i do believe it is a strong tool, but not one without drawbacks. Overuse of this can quickly put Eliza in a severe health disadvantage. Every match has different variables and nothing stays constant. What is constant however is the nerf sekhmet got, which practically removed her ground mix game as a whole.

Right now you have to jump to get the overhead which is already slower and more unsafe. And you are not able to do sekhmets grounded low into the aerial overhead as well. Which removes sekhmets high / low pretty much entirely, Now your best option as grounded is going low > butchers > backflip.
But that creates a one dimensional grounded "low only option" sekhmet has which removes a lot of the guessing game she could usually before create at the cost of health.


Sure the other buffs were nice and all but it was more of a "Quality of Life" change rather than a needed change for Eliza. Throne is still not good due to opponents being able to tech right after touching the ground, so even if you hit it against a zoner it wont do anything. You are right back where you started, getting zoned. c.HK armor starting 4F faster is cool but doesnt change Eliza in a meaningful way that helps her in her gameplan. It's just another anti-zoning tool that got buffed. s.HK startup i dont see changing much but s.HP getting help of 3F is nice i guess. I wont go over all changes but you get the idea.

Nowhere here do i see anything that really gives Eliza any help, or a "strong" tool that justifies her losing one of the best neutral tools she had as Sekhmet. To me it feels really bad that Sekhmet is being pushed away from being used in neutral and only as a "i want to deal damage and regen" whenever Eliza gets a confirm. Which turns Eliza more one dimensional, because why would you try to attempt a high / low with sekhmet now that it gets you instantly punished.

I went on Retail (not beta) to record and show just how much health Eliza loses attempting a few high / low. https://streamable.com/68jsqu
The risk reward from this is losing this much health and having the option to still stay (relatively, not completely) safe. She loses a substantial amount of health for the possibility of a high damage start reward. So why remove the ability to backflip in the first place?

Thanks for reading. I would like to repeat this is just my opinion, anyone is welcome state their opinion against my points above.

 

[JuuseBox]

honestly i feel like filia doesnt really need help in specifically the hit confirm area.
* cr.mk reaches deceptively far and is a good poke, and is easily confirmable. yeah it scales but you're already playing a low damage character AND you're going to reset anyways so it's not really substantial.
*s.mp is plus 8 on block. if they pb you're still plus 5 and can still push your turn. this button is really good i don't really see the point in buffing it unless you're talking as like a poke. which isn't really the point of that button anyways.
*c.hp is also a very good button. i understand that this normal exists on 2 other characters with easier hitconfirms from it, but they simply have different uses. filia is a short range character so it makes sense that she would have a harder time converting.
*drill is actually kind of bad i'll give you that one. i just think touching drill would be dangerous bc if it was good ppl would complain about it and it would get reverted.
to conclude, filia is a short range character that excels at short range. it makes sense that her longer range attacks would be weaker. also gregor solves like any hit confirm problem if ur fast enough

My issue with c.mk isnt the confirm. My issue is that there are deceptive ranges where your standard hitconfirm all connects but you whiff the s.hp. However you would have to recognize the situation by the first hit. Other characters have hitconfim problems, sure, but they have options from their second confirm to either make them safe or modify the combo if it hits.

S.mp is plus 8 on block. However it has the highest blockstun of all of Filia's moves, which means its her easiest button to pushblock. On push, this button is +5 as opposed to her other confirm medium, s.mk, which leaves her +7. Not to mention that if you get push blocked on the first hit, s.mp has more recovery than s.mk and becomes more minus on pb. I think the blockstun on s.mp should be reduced so that Filia can actually use the plus frames.

C.hp has ridiculous push back on hit, is -10 on hit (-4 canceled into fake drill), and doesnt combo into anything other than gregor from poke range. If this is supposed to be a counter poke tool, why am i left in a worse situation for correctly counter poking my opponent. I get left further away and put at disadvantage. I would like to see hitstun changes to this move to atleast leave me in a more rewarding position for being correct, and at most comboing into drill for a conversion. Why do double and fukua have this move, but better in every way. both characters have improved versions of c.hp that combo into specials which lead to full combos. Although they are different characters, it seems unfair that they have these options while filia does not.

Drill is trash. Its low profile doesnt last throughout the animation. Its unsafe on block. It has long start up and recovery. It has limited screen control because of how tight the hitboxes are. The conversions arent rewarding. I'd like to see the width expand to make it more useful in neutral and more consistent on the cast in combos.

Truthfully I want more for drill, and I want fake drill to be looked into as well, but I'm open to further discussion.

 

[BicepsAtMid]

I would like to try testing giving bella her overhead jhp back. I dont recall exactly the reason this was nerfed in the first place (theres no note on the patch notes) and we dont have the #2ebetadiscussion logs to check the discussion around it but I do remember this twitter post from Sonicfox.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1378915247931727878

Imo I think this mixup is perfectly fine for the game/character and i'm pretty sure theres even a gap to doublejump out some of these. Either way a 4 way mixup with counterplay is not deserving of a nerf. Why are we nerfing characters mix while peacock still has her reversal safe unseeable 2 layer left rights where she doesn't have to commit to either option?

A better question is was bella jhp being an overhead so oppressive that those nerfs stay without question, while things that people actually complain about like fortune's hitboxes/hurtboxes, fortune's meterless full invul movement dp, peacock teleport + assist, and catheads on dhc get reverted? I dont think anyone will argue that bella is a better character then peacock fortune double and annie so why did she get a worse treatment then those characters?

This doesnt even do anything about her weaknesses, she still gets memed by half the cast with or without jhp overhead and she still sucks at interacting with pb. Bella functions as a character without it, but a lot of characters would also function without some of their tools, every character is overloaded in this game. I dont think bella is more deserving of her tools taken away then any other character.

Also on another note why does fortune have a -2 strike invul reversal thats a reverse input of her lvl 1 full invul reversal? I think headroll should be at least be punishable on block, it really sucks crossing up a fortunes reversal input and still getting hit by another reversal.

 

[Ikkisoad]

This Bella nerf came with a buff to it as well, removing the forced scalling.
I think this nerf was a very good one, she lost her +20 instant overhead option, which makes the bella player choose between using more low/cmnd grab or going for instant j2MP if she wants the overhead option. It makes her interactions more interesting, instead of seeing someone doing instant clap which is +20.

And clap is still a very good button.

 

[BicepsAtMid]

This Bella nerf came with a buff to it as well, removing the forced scalling.
I think this nerf was a very good one, she lost her +20 instant overhead option, which makes the bella player choose between using more low/cmnd grab or going for instant j2MP if she wants the overhead option. It makes her interactions more interesting, instead of seeing someone doing instant clap which is +20.

And clap is still a very good button.

What is more interesting about j2mp over jhp? They are both overheads but j2mp is just worse in every way. Also im not sure why u mention +20 cause that frame data is pretty consistent with every jumping heavy in this game, but its worse on bella cause her dash is too bad to get any kind of mixup after a read pushblock, unlike val filia double annie etc.

You could make the argument for removing bella jhp for any random change in the game, lets remove band giantstep overhead cause he has instant jmk or lets take away filia jhp cause she can just overhead with jlp or jlk. These changes make no sense cause these characters arent nerf worthy. Bella isnt even top 5 anymore.

Maybe bella deserved these nerfs in a pre annie/umbrella world but I really think its fine to let it rock, especially if were keeping fortune/peacock as is who are inarguable 50x more egregious.

 

[Nuuance]

Head roll is like beos chair toss. It’s not repeatable & headroll is slower. It’s supposed to be safe-ish. You play the option & act accordingly. also slow enough to super after first hit whiffs/phases through. pbgc Works I’m assuming, as with other safe moves if timed properly. and After headroll get dps arent strike invuln anymore & has to get the head back. Fortune is good but there’s not really anything to truly balk about.

and just as well fortune is a mobile character using dp for movement that’s kinda her DNA & why she’s fun. she can’t follow up anti-airs with it unless right on top of her. checks out in my book. with her, you either play ‘her game’ upclose and risk the blowup or play outside her main archetype & make her come in/take head off.

Catheads dhc is in another category & pbgc/counterplay was very tough & being far was no more safe. Using an applicable super after raw cat heads was only real solution. it toe-tapped the line of oppression. peacock teleport I don’t really mind & think people should lab more & theres already been discussion about the counter play. there’s oppression, then theres just good.

Not really well acquainted with bella despite how much much I’ve played against her so I can’t speak to much anything there. Willing to try whatever tbh I just don’t want more nerfs for character defining tools that have counterplay already.

 

[Triviality]

Im on board with reverting Bella Clap to be an overhead.

The ethos of her design and skullgirls in general is for characters to have all the general tools + the niche that they occupy, not simply being defined by the niche that they occupy.

Ironically enough, I think Bella is an interesting character when she's not forced to rely on her command grabs, same with peacock not being forced to rely on projectiles, and in the case of umbrella, not being forced to rely on ravenous.

The reason we argue about so many of these "Egregious examples" and they get reverted is because at an intermediate-higher level, there is a learned way to beat these things. Assist + Teleport is not a free setup, fortune DP is something to play around, and Catheads + DHC is braindead but if you know how crossup protection works and know how to time your pushblocks correctly, you can beat that too

And just like those examples, We can beat Bella Clap overhead. Bella has fallen off so hard and the character is so easy to play around now, she can have bella clap overhead

Same with double gun. The knockback should be reverted. I play against doubles who use it, and if they hit you with it, to me atleast, it feels fair

 

[mpgame99]

I think we need to learn that it’s okay to be mid tier. SOMEONE has to be mid tier and I feel like a lot people are in this state that if their character isn’t in top 3/5, that there’s something wrong with them and like I just don’t get it at all.

Especially since the main argument seems to be “well X top tier does this so why can’t my character” as if people even LIKE whatever that top tier is doing in the first place. I personally would not enjoy the game as much if everyone was as good as Fortune/Pea/Annie. So trying to push characters closer to that “for fun” isn’t like a good thing to me