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Shin Megami Tensei and Persona

SanoBaron said:
I don't think i follow.

like, you mean how the Fool Arcana takes it's time throughout P3 and P4 to develop or is there something in P2 I don't know about.
I mean I haven't played it in a while but still.
Basically here is how the arcana's work in P2 and how it affects the party.
Persona were were divided into the 22 major arcana and 3 minor arcana of the tarot deck just like P3 and P4. Characters could equip any persona the party had access too but you had to factor in affinity to determine how much abilities cost to use. It was a sliding scale that went from Best to worst.

Each character has a primary and secondary affinity for persona. If you used a persona that was aligned with your primary arcana you got bonus's to your SP costs and if you had a bad affinity for that persona you had to pay more SP for abilities. An example would be Tatsuya. His primary arcana is the Sun, his secondary was the hanged man. So his starting persona Apollo (which is a Sun persona) gives him good SP costs. But if her were to use a persona from the Star arcana he would pay a lot more.

Nobody in P2 had the fool as their primary or secondary arcana and since the Fool arcana is the "empty" one. Everyone defaults to having the best affinity for Fool. They were also rare to find since you couldn't find fool card for persona fusion that easily.

Another thing to note is that party comp mattered a lot more in P2 since characters had a much more limited number of persona to draw from, and you also had fusion attacks which were powerful abilities activated by having party members cast spells in combination during the same turn.

What the fool arcana does in P3 and P4 is make your party comp slightly irrelevant since the MC can just carry the team; and this goes along with removing the ability to equip persona to any member of the party and restricting their persona selection to mostly 2. This is also one of the reasons that characters can feel useless in the last two persona games. If you don't like their set personas they don't get used and fall by the wayside. And outside of the story and maybe social links there isn't a reason to interact with them.

In P2 the entire cast felt relevant not just because they were main characters, but because you needed to keep the group synergy going and keep everyone well equipped and focusing on their strengths. There were a few moments where I had people using off persona to get through dungeon sections but it felt like a necessary sacrifice.

Basically I don't like the fool arcana in later persona games because it simplifies the combat and changes the focus from the team to the individual. I liked my tactical combat and emphasis on group dynamics.
 
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Speaking of the Fool:
yhursuhesb1vjedo8prw.jpg

That's the Protag currently highlighted in the Weapon shop aka Joker the Fool

Also someone was talking about Kanji and chairs in a past post...
chair_kun_dlc_persona_4_arena_ultimax_by_not_a_hazard-d7xrnz2.png
 
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i will bet you five imaginary dollars that they'll set characters up to be one sin then have them be another one
Naruto? He's actually lust
Catherine? Wrath
Neko? envy
 
Clawsome Bombs said:
Naruto reeks of pride bruh
I haven't heard a word out of his mouth but the way he moves and looks just radiates "I'm better than you"
His is probably envy, considering the mc's first male friend always has some kind of problem with how amazing the mc is.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
Basically here is how the arcana's work in P2 and how it affects the party.
Persona were were divided into the 22 major arcana and 3 minor arcana of the tarot deck just like P3 and P4. Characters could equip any persona the party had access too but you had to factor in affinity to determine how much abilities cost to use. It was a sliding scale that went from Best to worst.

Each character has a primary and secondary affinity for persona. If you used a persona that was aligned with your primary arcana you got bonus's to your SP costs and if you had a bad affinity for that persona you had to pay more SP for abilities. An example would be Tatsuya. His primary arcana is the Sun, his secondary was the hanged man. So his starting persona Apollo (which is a Sun persona) gives him good SP costs. But if her were to use a persona from the Star arcana he would pay a lot more.

Nobody in P2 had the fool as their primary or secondary arcana and since the Fool arcana is the "empty" one. Everyone defaults to having the best affinity for Fool. They were also rare to find since you couldn't find fool card for persona fusion that easily.

Another thing to note is that party comp mattered a lot more in P2 since characters had a much more limited number of persona to draw from, and you also had fusion attacks which were powerful abilities activated by having party members cast spells in combination during the same turn.

What the fool arcana does in P3 and P4 is make your party comp slightly irrelevant since the MC can just carry the team; and this goes along with removing the ability to equip persona to any member of the party and restricting their persona selection to mostly 2. This is also one of the reasons that characters can feel useless in the last two persona games. If you don't like their set personas they don't get used and fall by the wayside. And outside of the story and maybe social links there isn't a reason to interact with them.

In P2 the entire cast felt relevant not just because they were main characters, but because you needed to keep the group synergy going and keep everyone well equipped and focusing on their strengths. There were a few moments where I had people using off persona to get through dungeon sections but it felt like a necessary sacrifice.

Basically I don't like the fool arcana in later persona games because it simplifies the combat and changes the focus from the team to the individual. I liked my tactical combat and emphasis on group dynamics.
To continue from that.

While P3 doesn't do it as much as p4, you know what shows the power of friendship and that together we can do anything? Assigning a defined leader of a group and having him be mechanically and story wise the mary sue god of things.

In p3 everyone kind of has their own relationships with each other, so I gave it a pass until fes and portable came out, fes is all about how amazing the protag was and how his will is keeping everyone together, and Portable's girl path while being a breath of fresh air, was essentially the problem with p4's protag.

Feels like less of a story and more of a fanfic.

Not that I hate 3 and 4, I just didn't like how in the end everyone relied on me instead of us all relying on each other.

I seriously never used anyone outside of the first 3 people in p4 because why the hell would I?
 
iLoli said:
His is probably envy, considering the mc's first male friend always has some kind of problem with how amazing the mc is.

what about lust? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

trynna get into the mc's pants that salty man
 
Someone mentioned regarding the deadly sins how each character has some sort of color associated with them that also ties in with a sin.

Protag: Red (Gloves), Wrath
Ryuji: Yellow (shirt), Gluttony iirc?
Anne: Green (Clover and eyes in some shots), Envy
Morgana: Blue (eyes and stuff), Lust
 
Gahooglydonks said:
what about lust? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

trynna get into the mc's pants that salty man
I personally don't even like this concept in the first place, feels too shoehorned.

The only time the seven deadly sins have been used in an interesting way and more as a gimmick was FMA.

Greed, Lust, Gluttony, and Envy could all be the same thing.
 
Ehhhhhhh hold up. That's kind of oversimplifying things.

Envy is hatred over what people have over you. Gluttony is overexcess. Lust is desire for temporal pleasure, greed is looking for gain. It's got similarities, but I wouldn't say there's nothing you can do to separate them.

I could also say that The Star and The Sun have pretty similar implications in terms of Tarot Cards, and the Persona series has handled that well. I wouldn't worry.
 
iLoli said:
I seriously never used anyone outside of the first 3 people in p4 because why the hell would I?
one of them is a tank and a sick punk
another is a bear who is a great mage/medic with shenanigans
and the last one has access to both insta kill magics.
 
Nap1400 said:
Ehhhhhhh hold up. That's kind of oversimplifying things.

Envy is hatred over what people have over you. Gluttony is overexcess. Lust is desire for temporal pleasure, greed is looking for gain. It's got similarities, but I wouldn't say there's nothing you can do to separate them.

I could also say that The Star and The Sun have pretty similar implications in terms of Tarot Cards, and the Persona series has handled that well. I wouldn't worry.
"Could", as in "can be". Not "is" as in "is".

I'd rather read more about the latern corps than about 4 similar attributes.

You're also forgetting how the sun and star are used in Persona.

The sun is more about optimism in the face of adversity.

The Star arcana people are just generally happy or focus on making others happy.

And no, the series has not done a good job of handling both of them at the same time.
 
One thing that has me thinking that P5 is going to address the way the party dynamics changed is with how this core group is being presented to us. I think it's safe to assume that our 4 characters have a relationship that extends before the game starts (based off an observation I got from an IGN breakdown of the trailer. The date 4/11 is the same day that P2 and P4 start)

Which means that our initial characters might not be trying to get along since they already have history. That also might be the reason that Social Links aren't present on the menu and instead you have cooperation.
 
iLoli said:
Not that I hate 3 and 4, I just didn't like how in the end everyone relied on me instead of us all relying on each other.
tbh, I kinda liked that though. because the feeling was mutual.
they relied on you, you relied on them. I'm sure everyone relied on each other in some way shape or form.
otherwise no one would be able to work together.
 

P4 had more togetherness than a Sunday School special
P3 on the other hand wellllllll they put up with each other
In Q they were all "we should get to know each other better" after P4 gang told them to shape up but then
lol memory wipe back to bring awkward around each other
 
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SanoBaron said:
tbh, I kinda liked that though. because the feeling was mutual.
they relied on you, you relied on them. I'm sure everyone relied on each other in some way shape or form.
otherwise no one would be able to work together.
P3 was a little less worse about this, but.

I can't see Youskue hanging out with Yukiko alone ever, and not because of some persona issues like Yukari and Mitsuru, that's been explored, no, just because we've never seen interaction between them alone.

Same with Teds and Rise, or etc. ( I had a big list, then realized it was almost every pair I could think of so I'm just going to do this)

Persona 4's cast is like that group you hang out with in your freshman year of pretty much anything anywhere, you're all cool together, but most of you wouldn't know what the hell to say to the next person if everyone else besides you two had something else to do that day.

The only people I see hanging out alone are Yukkiko and Chie, who are established before the game stars and MC and Youskue. Also Youskue and Chie.
 
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I TOTALLY thought Vincent Brooks made a cameo in 1:59 of the P5 trailer and I got SUPER excited... then I found out it was just the protagonist....

jUcil8z.jpg


latest


Still really excited though.
 
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Ruin said:
yeah
but you can be all those things too
You can be. That does not mean that you have to be or should be so.
 
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shoryusatsu999 said:
You can be. That does not mean that you have to be or should be so.
But why would I not?

I don't NEED them.

In p1 and 2 you NEEDED your allies, driving home the point of "hey jackass, you're the shit and all but you REALLY can't do this alone, you REALLY need your friends".

Even 3 initially did it because every character had a stupid large glaring weakness everyone had to cover, because god your group would never be Shinji Ahkiko Junpei.
 
SanoBaron said:
tbh, I kinda liked that though. because the feeling was mutual.
they relied on you, you relied on them. I'm sure everyone relied on each other in some way shape or form.
otherwise no one would be able to work together.
It depends on how much you are willing to read into the mechanics and story. Since character social links are solely dependent on Yu to progress them, and Yu also has the most utility in combat it's not hard to imagine him as the real center of the group and not just a leader. That and the plot goes out of it's way to make Yu central to a lot of things that goes on in Inaba.

Sure the group relied on each other but in the end only Yu could solve anything and the group became his clearleaders.
 
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Like, SEES doesn't really like each other (p3p's girl route is the exception, and that's just because she's hyper active yu) and that's fine. You don't need to like everyone in your group to be a group.

But in p4 they try to push this idea of this amazing group of friends when it's really not, it's a bunch a people who have almost nothing in common all held by this guy who is the self insert, maybe if he wasn't the self insert it wouldn't have felt so bad.

It's not like in Ocorina of Time, where everyone is a different race or creed or sex and they have this thing they all want to protect, and found someone who is a catalyst for that and over the years put their faith in him and let him proceed with their blessings.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
It depends on how much you are willing to read into the mechanics and story. Since character social links are solely dependent on Yu to progress them, and Yu also has the most utility in combat it's not hard to imagine him as the real center of the group and not just a leader. That and the plot goes out of it's way to make Yu central to a lot of things that goes on in Inaba.

Sure the group relied on each other but in the end only Yu could solve anything and the group became his clearleaders.
I'm not saying Yu isn't a huge factor to the plot, he is, I just feel the fact that he has to be the character everyone likes (because part of his character is meant to help the player feel better as a form of escapism) isn't really a fair assessment to make for the quality of the rest of the game.

also, Arena shows that everyone is still friends and hanging out, Teddie is living with Yosuke and doing his own thing, they all got their lives and doing their own things, so I can see everyone as friends in the end.
 
SanoBaron said:
I'm not saying Yu isn't a huge factor to the plot, he is, I just feel the fact that he has to be the character everyone likes (because part of his character is meant to help the player feel better as a form of escapism) isn't really a fair assessment to make for the quality of the rest of the game.

also, Arena shows that everyone is still friends and hanging out, Teddie is living with Yosuke and doing his own thing, they all got their lives and doing their own things, so I can see everyone as friends in the end.
If a game can be rewarded for tying in it's gameplay and story, a game can also be looked at critically for separating it, especially when the story is the draw of the game.

SMT 3 is about doing things your way, getting shit down how you want it done, it's why you're the only human in the party, it's why you decide what happens.

A part of p4's theme is not captured in the gameplay, it's weirdly glossed over.
 
I'll be fair to iLoli, it would be a lot better if there were more character interactions in the main game. They basically make the series what it is, and having your character act as a magnet for most of the game doesn't help that.

That said, apparently PQ was a lot better in the interaction area and in gameplay because of the sub-persona system, so maybe they'll take some influence from that.
 
SanoBaron said:
I'm not saying Yu isn't a huge factor to the plot, he is, I just feel the fact that he has to be the character everyone likes (because part of his character is meant to help the player feel better as a form of escapism) isn't really a fair assessment to make for the quality of the rest of the game.
Yu being this huge character that has to be relatable to everyone in the cast is part of my disconnect with him. Yu is there for everyone but who is there for him? Who helps Yu overcome his own shadow so that he can gain his persona? Nobody since he does that himself in a tutorial fight. What personal barriers does Yu have to overcome so he can level up his persona? None, he can make his own whenever he wants and his ultimate persona is triggered by plot and "the power of friendship".

I don't hate the guy but man was Yu a really stale character. I'll take Tatsuya and Maya and their issues over having an MC with no real character flaws.
 
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PaperBag_Sniper said:
I don't hate the guy but man was Yu a really stale character. I'll take Tatsuya and Maya and their issues over having an MC with no real character flaws.
this I can attest to. Yu in the games is a SUPER avatar. his entire character is mean to be a blank slate for the player.

I'm also going by his Arena and anime interpretations as well.
 
I don't mind playing a self insert, but damn can I give my self insert a character?

Maybe I don't like Teddie, or Naoto, or blank or blank.

SEES doesn't pretend, so as protag of that game I don't HAVE to hang out with them, hell the game shows they aren't amazingly found of me either at times so they won't hang out with me.

I liked when arcanas went down in ranking or they reversed, it felt like an actual relationship was happening.

Maybe the problem is with how stale the S.link idea is now, bonds are great, but they should be more dynamic than what they are in p4 and 3. And p4 did it worse than p3.
 
I reversed Ai's SC once does that count
 
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Why can't I hold all these social links?
 
Q actually has a lot of issues, mostly overusing jokes, making some character traits more apparent, such as making Akihiko a moron in every way possible...Sub-Personas are a chore to keep track of. You don't have a storage like in 2, and they give you necessary skills, making it painful to fuse them away when you have a strategy.
Also, Yosuke+Aim Goggles+Lullaby Song+Impure Reach=Always first and hardly ever miss vs normal shadows. So effective.
 
Notice how I said "character interactions". I know PQ was pretty bad in the flanderization department, but at least it tried to develop its characters by having them talk with various combinations in the strolls and stuff rather than PROTAGONIST MUST BE ENGAGED IN THIS CONVERSATION.
 
once was enough. I'm trying to keep my expectations moderate with each trailer.

my best friend who loves Persona REFUSES to watch any trailers or hear any news of the game.

he wants it that bad.
 
I've lost count honestly
 
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Back to the original point, I feel like he deadly sins is boring.

Why? over-characterization.

If these characters have problems, let them have problems, don't just assign them one.

Oh, blonde kid is pride, so he's going to be a haughty asshole until something happens in the middle of the story that changes him.

THAT. THAT is how your write a boring character. Assigning an overarching theme to every character could get hamfisted fast.

These seven sins are supposed to be what helps make up every human, assigning one over the other to a character puts everything in a formula.
 
maybe it's not their problems
but their theme?
because you can base a character on any of the 7 deadly sins
and make it work.

also
B9Gqe97CUAA4Wne.png
 
SanoBaron said:
maybe it's not their problems
but their theme?
because you can base a character on any of the 7 deadly sins
and make it work.

also
I honestly cannot think of many good examples, the best from the top of my head is fma.

Satskui from KLK? Then again she is willing to throw away her pride at a moment's notice and pride isn't really her character, sacrifice is.
 
Yeah. Basing a character on a theme is one thing. Additionally, this could be the theme behind their alter-egos. From what we've seen, they're pretty normal teens otherwise, so the sins could be a theming for that. Any sort of generalization can be used as a base, doesn't have to envelope the whole of te character.
 
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