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Shin Megami Tensei and Persona

The tentative “SMT x FE” title was created before development on the game even started, which is why it was initially unveiled under that title.

Part way through the project, the developers decided that, rather than a simple crossover, they wanted to turn the game into its own thing; hence the new Japanese title, Genei Ibun Roku♯FE. ("Illusionary Revelations♯FE") References to the two game series still remain, but the game, officially speaking, is not a crossover and has not been for some time.

In conclusion, both FE fans and SMT fans need to shut the fuck up, because this game isn't a “fake” or a “bastardization” or whatever other bullshit people have convinced themselves of. It is NOT a FE game; it is NOT a SMT game. It isn't meant to be a crossover at all; it's its own game.

God forbid anyone tries anything different or unorthodox. God forbid anyone tries to be creative or interesting.
Why couldn't it just be a standard, boring crossover instead of ever being something more?

Why could it have 100% less anime when both franchises have historically utilized such an aesthetic, particularly Persona and FE? Why couldn't it be in-your-face and be blatantly obviously dark and gritty and shit, even though it still has a Mature rating, which it must have earned somehow?
 
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PaperBag_Sniper said:
Both franchises have seen newer releases reduce the complexity of their game designs to different degrees

This is completely untrue in Awakening's case (and definitely IF).

Awakening's problem wasn't that they reduced complexity, it was the exact opposite. They added too much new stuff (word of god is that they had a "bucket list" of concepts to implement before the series was over, and threw in the kitchen sink for this one because they thought it would be the last), and didn't have enough time to balance it all. Pairing and Dual Strike are fantastic mechanics that offer some very meaningful new choices to make in battle, but unless you low level run they become broken near the end because the numbers are off. But from the people who have played it, If/Fates completely remedies this.

FE is actually a great example for me of how you keep a series relevant without losing it's charm. It still has the hardcore, punishing, fast paced, and arcadey nature of past titles, but they're actively thinking of (quite good, imo) new mechanics and ideas that fit in with the old ones.

Not sure I can say the same about SMT at the moment though, sadly.
 
jawnsunn said:
no stop

I want this game to be Idolmaster x SMT.

don't ruin my dreams
TOO LATE! THE TOMA HYPE TRAIN IS ALREADY FULL SWING AND THERE ARE NO BRAKES!
toma.jpg
photo-14638.png

toma-akagi-carnage-fe-01.jpg
 
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I mean if people are worried that SMT is ruined because of Genei Ibunroku...

lets remember that SMT4 Final exists now.

you know

the sequel to that super dark mainline title we all loved.

SMT4F is gonna be the darkest persona game yet.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
It's SMT's future that is in question, in my honest opinion.
IV outsold anything else mainline and almost all of the side stuff, and we're getting a direct sequel to it in not an unreasonable amount of time.

Persona 5 has demon assets and an engine for the current gen platform, I think right now it's actually okay not to think we're going to get shafted. Hell, P5 looks more like an SMT game than anything in that series post Eternal Punishment. Not saying be optimistic because we're safe, just that it doesn't look so bleak, even with my problems with IV, I just hope "we listened to fan feedback" isn't "we listened to P4 kids who thought this was a Persona spin-off"

@PaperBag_Sniper while I understand the point you're trying to make, P5 says to me that they're not necessarily going to apply that tone to other things, and the fact IV-2 is happening reinforces this.

jawnsunn said:
that super dark mainline title we all loved.
I know you're joking, but don't do that, it hurts and I can only hope IV-2 will be better in that regard.
 
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like, I know I'm being a bit too excited over Toma, but this is literally a character catered to me.
 
I wouldn't worry about Genei. I think the prospect of another Atlus grinder with an anime coat of paint isn't the worst thing in the world, just nothing to get excited about compared to what it could have been IMO.

AdenPhoenix said:
IV outsold anything else mainline and almost all of the side stuff, and we're getting a direct sequel to it in not an unreasonable amount of time.

I meant more in terms of quality, not necessarily survival/sales.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
This is completely untrue in Awakening's case (and definitely IF).

Awakening's problem wasn't that they reduced complexity, it was the exact opposite.
That's why I was hazy about Fire Emblem. I have little to no experience with those games and I've barely made it into the Gameboy games. All I know is what I hear from the fans who complain about the games becoming "waifu" simulators.

Zeriam said:
The tentative “SMT x FE” title was created before development on the game even started, which is why it was initially unveiled under that title.

Part way through the project, the developers decided that, rather than a simple crossover, they wanted to turn the game into its own thing; hence the new Japanese title, Genei Ibun Roku♯FE. ("Illusionary Revelations♯FE") References to the two game series still remain, but the game, officially speaking, is not a crossover and has not been for some time.

In conclusion, both FE fans and SMT fans need to shut the fuck up, because this game isn't a “fake” or a “bastardization” or whatever other bullshit people have convinced themselves of. It is NOT a FE game; it is NOT a SMT game. It isn't meant to be a crossover at all; it's its own game.

God forbid anyone tries anything different or unorthodox. God forbid anyone tries to be creative or interesting.
Why couldn't it just be a standard, boring crossover instead of ever being something more?

Why could it have 100% less anime when both franchises have historically utilized such an aesthetic, particularly Persona and FE? Why couldn't it be in-your-face and be blatantly obviously dark and gritty and shit, even though it still has a Mature rating, which it must have earned somehow?
This isn't really about Atlus trying to make a new thing. It's what they originally pitched and what expectations that brought to the table. They literally pitches a non-descript trailer that only showed characters from both SMT and Fire emblem games with the promise of mixing the best of both worlds. SMT had already had the Majin Tensei games which were fire emblem clones but more recently they had the Devil Survivor games which were turn based tactical RPG's which is what Fire Emblem is.

So it's no surprise when they unvealed the actual game that people were (and still) are salty about it. It IS a bastardization of the more mainline SMT games given the original expectation and is more in line with what Persona has been doing for the last half decade. And with how hard Atlus has been pushing and creating derivative works based around P3 and P4 it's no surprise in hindsight that this is the direction SMTxFE came too.

And an M rating in gaming nowadays means as much as PG-13. I can go see horror movies with murder in it with a PG rating so long as they know how to hide all the bloodshed and such. Rated M means nothing in terms of content because you can get an M rating for profanity.

I don't mind atlus doing their own thing. It's why I can sleep soundly at night despite P4D existing. But what I don't like is being sold a pipe dream, only for the curtain to be pulled up and the love child of the Idol and Otaku sub-cultures to be what I see.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
I meant more in terms of quality
Well them all I've got is
AdenPhoenix said:
I just hope "we listened to fan feedback" isn't "we listened to P4 kids who thought this was a Persona spin-off"

Because I certainly worry about it as well, but I'm not going to say we're doomed until IV-2 and/or P5 sucks. IV had problems but they may have recognized and fixed that and I don't believe we should judge Atlus' future projects by #FE, it's a cross studio project because someone felt like making it and it actually went through.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
That's why I was hazy about Fire Emblem. I have little to no experience with those games and I've barely made it into the Gameboy games. All I know is what I hear from the fans who complain about the games becoming "waifu" simulators.

Yeah it's mostly bullshit. It's one of those "it actually got some mainstream success, must be over-rated and shit". See also: how many hardcore shmup fans feel about Ikaruga.

FE was never Berserk or Game of Thrones or anything. Awakening had more of an emphasis on humor then previous titles, and (like the gameplay) it's writing had some notable flaws, but it was overall about as entertaining as previous titles on that front and was in many ways a breath of fresh air IMO.

That being said, if/fates does do some...questionable things. But by all accounts the writing and gameplay is vastly improved in other areas. So eh.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
So it's no surprise when they unvealed the actual game that people were (and still) are salty about it. It IS a bastardization of the more mainline SMT games given the original expectation and is more in line with what Persona has been doing for the last half decade. And with how hard Atlus has been pushing and creating derivative works based around P3 and P4 it's no surprise in hindsight that this is the direction SMTxFE came too.

And an M rating in gaming nowadays means as much as PG-13. I can go see horror movies with murder in it with a PG rating so long as they know how to hide all the bloodshed and such. Rated M means nothing in terms of content because you can get an M rating for profanity.

I don't mind atlus doing their own thing. It's why I can sleep soundly at night despite P4D existing. But what I don't like is being sold a pipe dream, only for the curtain to be pulled up and the love child of the Idol and Otaku sub-cultures to be what I see.
I'm not saying that you have to be excited about it, but it really isn't a bastardization.
they revealed the project (way too early if you ask me) and the game became something else. it's now it's own thing, and it hasn't been called SMTxFE for quite a long time.

the only places that still called it that were American branches because they felt it would help market it. upon seeing this though, I think they're just now embracing the new title which this game has had for a long time.

and again, it's not about idols or even otaku sub-cultures. it's about entertainment. some of the characters that have been revealed are even musicians. hell, one of the characters in the trailer you posted is singing opera.

again, I don't want you to think like I'm pushing it on you or anything of the sort, but I do think you are jumping the gun a bit, especially since you said you haven't been paying attention to anything about the game.
 
Zeriam said:
The tentative “SMT x FE” title was created before development on the game even started, which is why it was initially unveiled under that title.

Part way through the project, the developers decided that, rather than a simple crossover, they wanted to turn the game into its own thing; hence the new Japanese title, Genei Ibun Roku♯FE. ("Illusionary Revelations♯FE") References to the two game series still remain, but the game, officially speaking, is not a crossover and has not been for some time.

In conclusion, both FE fans and SMT fans need to shut the fuck up, because this game isn't a “fake” or a “bastardization” or whatever other bullshit people have convinced themselves of. It is NOT a FE game; it is NOT a SMT game. It isn't meant to be a crossover at all; it's its own game.

God forbid anyone tries anything different or unorthodox. God forbid anyone tries to be creative or interesting.
Why couldn't it just be a standard, boring crossover instead of ever being something more?

Why could it have 100% less anime when both franchises have historically utilized such an aesthetic, particularly Persona and FE? Why couldn't it be in-your-face and be blatantly obviously dark and gritty and shit, even though it still has a Mature rating, which it must have earned somehow?
None of this I agree with in the slightest.
The "this is a completely new game" is not a valid argument. Using just the case of FE, it even uses actual characters from the games. It could be something interesting, varied, or unorthodox, but this is not the way to do it. I'm not really a fan of SMT (never got into it because I don't have the time, really), but it seems to me both series' fans do not want this.
You CANNOT SAY this isn't a crossover or "has nothing to do with the original series". It is being presented to us as a crossover, it is a crossover, and it has characters from both series in the trailers.
Having an M rating isn't the same as having dark and mature themes. You can have characters having sex everywhere or there being tons of gore, but that is anything but mature. Saying "oh it has an M rating so it is going to be dark" is not accurate.
 
Meow-Professor said:
Having an M rating isn't the same as having dark and mature themes. You can have characters having sex everywhere or there being tons of gore, but that is anything but mature. Saying "oh it has an M rating so it is going to be dark" is not accurate.
they're saying that it probably wont be cutesy or as lighthearted asd others make it out to be.

I mean, one of the trailers has a seen of the main character looking out over some apocalypse looking area.
so for all we know there could be a huge tonal shift.

we won't really know the details until the game comes out.
 
A friend and I are actually making an SRPG in Unity based around FE Lords with Demon Summoning. Like Advance Wars with beefy leader units and unit fusion.

I just really wanted a demon summoning srpg okay
 
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SanoBaron said:
all I wanted was talking about Toma and chill...

Nope you unleashed the kraken. There will be no chilling.
 
yeah that's cool and all but also
latest
just look at that big cute fella
look at all the points he wants to choke
 
What annoys me is that will STILL be sold with SMT name in the west...

They could call it "Mirager persona #FE" and preserve the series.

I mean, Capcom is making a shitty generic TPS and will remove the "resident evil" name of it. It'll be just Umbrella Corps
 
I read this article a few months back and I feel it's relevant now that SMT4 Final is a thing.

Contains spoilers to SMT4, so don't read it if you haven't played it yet.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
A friend and I are actually making an SRPG in Unity based around FE Lords with Demon Summoning.
Sounds cool, emphasis on the demon part.

Squire Grooktook said:
I just really wanted a demon summoning srpg okay
I love the implications of this statement, intentional or not.
 
Even without the Resident Evil name attached, most people are still gonna be able to tell that Umbrella Corps is an RE game due to the established universe. I don't see that happening with #FE because both of its component series are relatively obscure. They'll probably be able to tell that there are Fire Emblem characters in the game (assuming they have heard of the series through Smash), but they'll likely draw a blank on where the SMT elements come from.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
I just really wanted a demon summoning srpg okay
i mean if you're okay with terrible character designs and social links there's always devil survivor
 
DukeMagus said:
What annoys me is that will STILL be sold with SMT name in the west...

They could call it "Mirager persona #FE" and preserve the series.

I mean, Capcom is making a shitty generic TPS and will remove the "resident evil" name of it. It'll be just Umbrella Corps
except that the Treehouse people had it as Genei Ibun Roku when they played it at E3.
so it can at least be assumed that they'll just keep the english name.

fun fact everyone, don't pop your crossover boners too hard, or else fans will find out you lied super hard.

and the internet never forgets.
 
Ok so explain why people hate Persona emblem. because from what ive seen its modern day and the FE characters are personas that look nothing like the character their based off of.
 
@SanoBaron I know about the name differences between the Western and Eastern regions. I was one of the people who posted about it and have basically been the only one posting new information about SMTxFE (or #FE I guess) in this thread for months now. Calling it a basterdization is too much though and I'll retract that. From all avaliable materials it's a small assumption of mine that this game isn't going to go for anything the Mainline games have in terms of themes or tone. It's DNA is firmly with the current Atlus.

And I think the game is more geared towards Idol culture just going off the trailer. At least as far as our female lead and her foil the game is about youths trying to make it big in the industry. I think Kamen Rider guy is trying to be the main hero instead of a minion and that's admirable, but the main focus of all the videos is on Sweater-girl and her desire to become an idol.

Squire Grooktook said:
A friend and I are actually making an SRPG in Unity based around FE Lords with Demon Summoning. Like Advance Wars with beefy leader units and unit fusion.

I just really wanted a demon summoning srpg okay
Do you all have a dev blog? I'd follow it in a heartbeat.
 
Ruin said:
yeah that's cool and all but also
latest
just look at that big cute fella
look at all the points he wants to choke

Draug is very nice. I'll give you that, but Virion on the other hand.

It's too much swag to handle.
SMTxFE_10-01-15_005.jpg
 
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PaperBag_Sniper said:
Do you all have a dev blog? I'd follow it in a heartbeat.

Nope but I post stuff on my Youtube. For example this pathfinding thingy I wrote (ignore troll title and read description lol).

Of course, I'm working on a short shmup demo which I started before we brainstormed the idea for the srpg, so I'll be finishing that first before I go full time on the srpg.

Basic idea at the moment:

-Lords (1-3 per mission or something) take over buildings to summon tier 1 demons

-Demons are divided into 3 tiers and 3 elements, each element is weak and strong against another. Might be 3 classes within each tier and element as well, so 27 demon unit types total. Might adjust this number, maybe go down to 2 tiers or something if needed. Or make the third tier a single "ultimate" unit for that element.

-Fusing two demons of the same tier and same element creates a demon of the next tier with the same element. Fusing two demons of the same tier and different elements creates a demon of the next tier with the third element. Fusing two demons of different tiers causes the higher tier demon to devour the lower tier one, gaining a temporary buff or hp regen or some shit.

So: Fire 1 + Fire 1 = Fire 2.
Water 1 + Earth 1 = Fire 2.
Fire 2 + Fire 1 = Fire 2 + temporary buff/hp restore

-Other stuff etc. we were toying with a territory control mechanic whilst talking about it but I don't want it to get too complicated. Needs testing which will come later.

-Thinking no press turns since it might be too much momentum in a strategy game, and I like the sheer speed of AW/FE battles, but maybe it could effect counter-attacks or something.

Ruin said:
i mean if you're okay with terrible character designs and social links there's always devil survivor

Devil Survivor is actually pretty good, but I prefer the faster pace and (generally) anti-grinding nature of AW/FE. DS is a bit closer to Final Fantasy Tactics kind of style.
 
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I knew I forgot something in SMT IV. There is nothing for playing neutral, instead you get forced to do practically every side quest in the game and then both the law and chaos dungeons.
 
AdenPhoenix said:
I knew I forgot something in SMT IV. There is nothing for playing neutral, instead you get forced to do practically every side quest in the game and then both the law and chaos dungeons.
That's how neutral has always been though? You have to fight both sides since if you leave one standing they will just fill the vacuum the other leaves behind.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
That's how neutral has always been though?
It's been handled far better. Doesn't really matter at this point though.
 
I don't find going through the Cathedral twice in SMT1 as a reward for going neutral.
 
AdenPhoenix said:
It's been handled far better. Doesn't really matter at this point though.
That's only really been true in SMT II and Strange Journey. SMT I was hell getting neutral and those consecutive boss rushes were only saved by how broken certain spells are in that game.
 
I said it had been handled better, which you've just given examples of being true. You guys know I'm sure not talking about the cathedral.
 
AdenPhoenix said:
I said it had been handled better, which you've just given examples of being true. You guys know I'm sure not talking about the cathedral.
My point is that complaining about Neutral making you do everything is silly when that's the whole point of Neutral and has been since game 1. Only SMT I has a really annoying method of showing off that content by making you do the Cathedral twice. Subsequent games would make you take on each side in their respective territory and SJ was the originator of the mission structure but all the actions needed to trigger any route were done in the main quest.

I haven't played the second half of SMT IV but going off of guides and anecdotes; it seems like the real problem is making the quests that lead to the neutral ending a combination of main and challenge quests while the other routes can be achieved by just making alignment choices in either direction like previous games.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
Thing is SMTxFE is part of a larger pattern (and potentially a problem) for both SMT and FE franchises respectively. Both franchises have seen newer releases reduce the complexity of their game designs to different degrees, and both have seen newer titles that are more geared towards the casual fanbase, as well as the contemporary anime crowd. This has made it so Fire Emblem has created an increased emphasis on dating simulation elements, and Persona has become the defacto cash cow for Atlus with the gothic themes of the Mainline games getting watered down in the most recent iteration.

SMTxFE just stands as testament as to what both companies are valuing right now and it's close to the antithesis of what the earlier titles may have stood for. That may be a bold claim but at least for the Shin Megami Tensei series it's very true.


Okay.

1. List me the mechanics that are outright stripped and destoryed and NOT JUST REPLACED WITH something in either P4/SMT 4/SJ or Fe Awakening, the main franchise's 2 most current outings.

2.Casual how? Awakening getting a mode that lets death not be permanent doesn't seem casual, it seems inclusive, this is not Dark Souls' world we're talking about, this is a single player SRPG on a handheld device, if you want to bust you balls, put it on OG hard mode and go to Apothesis secret route and get your shit pushed in like I did. No one stopped me, and no one is stopping you.

3.Fire Emblem got a new artist, because they've had the same damn art style for ages now and wanted something different for a little bit, not just instant anime, because Fire Emblem has always been anime, they just had a different artist. SMT has also been anime as fuck, dunno if you guys remember, but back in the 90's, THAT'S WHAT ANIME LOOKED LIKE. See :Beserk,Lain, Akira, GITS, Gundam Wing etc etc.


Both these franchises have been doing WHAT THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN DOING, you're just too young to remember what the context was around these games but old enough to have played the older games so you notice the difference.

images


Look at this, this is Soul Hackers, this came out in 97.

Look at how gooddamn anime this shit is. It's just 90's anime.


2164178-image_45.png




Look at fucking Sigurd, does he look like real person, or does he look like a 90's anime fantasy hero?



Do I have to remind you what the lyrics to the opening of this spin-off game are?

I want to destroy
Will you be able to heal me from loneliness, from pain
And all things I had cherished
(Reincarnation, Realization, Reincarnation)
I want to disappear

Sounds of a city that never sleeps, the melancholy of these fake smiles
These real motive hiding, someday, somewhere as we had never seen them
Even if nobody speak about things as insecurity, we know about it

I want to destroy
These courageous acts I had cherished
But then, I won’t be able to be honest
Even if I’m lost or in trouble, if you ever ask me,
At least, I’ll destroy this pain and this loneliness
(Reincarnation, Realization, Reincarnation)
I want to reincarnate


An Mature rated game made by Atlus and Intelligent that has something to do with the entertainment industry that talks about pain, loneliness, the fakeness of other people, insecurity, and the act of destruction of previous deeds you've found admirable.

Let's not throw out baseless accusations.


Because I've played everything from Persona to DDS to the mainline games to even the shitty SMT MMO and average as all get out Devil Survivor series; while they may differ in tone at time, they're all incredibly mature stories.

Same with Fire Emblem.
 
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*sigh* this "anime as fuck" conversation made me sad for having Kazuma Kaneko more and more distant... Wish he would try to make more demons...
 
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