Shin Megami Tensei and Persona

[Squire Grooktook]

and average as all get out Devil Survivor series; while they may differ in tone at time, they're all incredibly mature stories.

Devil Survivor 1 is better then average IMO, even though it's gameplay is a bit slow for my taste. DS2 is eh though.

I do feel like there's a subtle and gradual shift going on with SMT though. I also wouldn't call every game in SMT "incredibly mature", but eh matter of opinion.

Agree about Awakening though. "Casual mode" is a fine additional because its optional. Even Contra had the Konami Code. Just as long as they don't bring back mid mission saving in every mode (the shit that ruined Radiant Dawn) I'll be happy.

TBH I'm very pleased with Fire Emblem lately, because they're not doing the same old same old, and are instead trying out new tones, story themes, mechanics, etc. while still sticking to the series strengths.

Smt though...SMT IV fell short IMO like I said before, Strange Journey was a'right, Devil Survivor 2 was meh...I feel like they need to pick up the pace and hit one out of the park or I'm going to lose interest soon.

 

[iLoli]

Considering the villain of 4 is a misanthropic serial molester/attempted rapist, murderer who influenced a former VIP who turned to a cult after his wife's divorce from to become a kidnapper, and caused another kid to become a copy cat killer, I'd call it pretty mature.

I read stories like this as a child, but that's because I lived in the hood and had no prenatal supervision over my media.

Sure the stupidity of kids when talking about these murders make them feel a little dumb at times, but everything around these main characters is pretty serious, including a couple of the kids' problems being potentially damaging throughout their lives.

I feel the actual dialogue writing of 4 is what made it feel goofy, and that their wasn't enough "serious" pieces of music for serious talk. Traumarei is the only one that sticks out to me.

People always confuse SMT with being grimdark or super edgy or whatever and it never was that, ever.

SMT has never been Drakengard, the only truly depressing games SMT ever put out were DDS and DDS 2.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

I didn't specify P4 lol. Edgy elements don't nessicarily make for maturity, although I think that it's that atmosphere and occaisional balance of humor that keeps SMT from feeling like something an edgy teenager wrote. Running into a jack frost goofing off in the middle of a post apoctalyptic wasteland really makes the series, heh.

That being said, some of the entries are a lot better written then others IMO.

About darkness: IMO the thing about SMT is that it's grim, often dealing with genocide and countless deaths, but it doesn't "feel" as dark as something like Drakengard because it's actually a lot less morally ambiguous than it might seem at first glance. Another aspects of the writings strength for me. The villains (at least the Law/Chaos guys in the main series) tend to have (seemingly) reasonable arguments, but ultimately there IS a right way to go and a wrong way to go, and there are solutions to the problem. It just does a better job of disguising it, which makes it feel more real. Sharp contrast to something truly grimdark like Warhammer where there's (kinda) no good guys or bad guys because there's just no real solution to the problems.

That being said, to go back to Fire Emblem, FE:if's "petting" is pushing the envelope a bit. Awakening was playing with some pseudo-dating sim elements, but it played it safe and didn't do anything the past games wouldn't have, and I think it worked very well as a result. I personally don't mind the petting thing in If/Fates, but I do think it's a minor issue for tone.

 

[iLoli]

I think it all depends no the scene.

I brought up p4 because it's one of the latest entries in the umbrella SMT term, even though I'm pretty sure Persona isn't even "SMT" in Japan, felt like when I walking by a persona golden box in Japan I didn't see SMT, but that was like a year ago and I honestly' don't remember that well.

As for the petting, as long as that's done during leisure time and no one's trying foreplay behind a building on the battlefield I think it will be fine.

I agree with the writing, unless we're talking about DDS, that shit is just depressing. The SMT writers do a great job balancing the drama.


BUT GOD MARIE MARIE MARIE DEAR GOD I ACTUALLY FEEL DISRESPECTED AS A PERSON.

Can't think of any other piece of fiction ever that has retconned a character's existence into an already finished and established canon.

God fuck the guy who thought of that, and fuck the guy who greenlit it.

 

[PaperBag_Sniper]

Hokay, can't sleep and replying to this. Pardon any spelling errors I'll fix them when I eventually wake up after passing out.

Okay.

1. List me the mechanics that are outright stripped and destoryed and NOT JUST REPLACED WITH something in either P4/SMT 4/SJ or Fe Awakening, the main franchise's 2 most current outings.

First of all my statement is about the series respectively not just their sum total in #FE. I've played SMT games since the Playstation 2 and played every mainline game and every spinoff I have the console for so at least I can comment on this element. Squire already called me on Fire Emblem and I admit that I have little experience with the series and was working on hearsay. But look at Shin Megami tensei, I have two main changes that happened over the years and what is lost when they happened. I have some other ones but I don't want this post to turn out too long.

Spoiler

• Reduction of party size from 6 to 4
  • I cannot harp on this enough this was a huge hit to mainline games that weren't Nocturne in hindsight. This is most noticable in SMT IV where Johnathan, Isabeau, and Walter function like FF III quest members. External attachments to your current party that just attack how they please.
    • What is lost is having your law/chaos/neutral hero be a part of your group and treated as characters with stats and equipment to manage and still giving you slots for your demons.
      
    • not having your heroes in your party, coming off of SMT I and II feels wrong because part of the narrative structure of SMT is having your party lose it's crucial human elements once people start moving down their alignment paths. But part of the reason their departure feels significant from a mechanical perspective is the loss of their fighting force in games that had much stricter party limitations (macca costs/ step, etc)
  • This change, looking at Nocturne works because the system is balanced around the new Press Turn combat and the Demi-fiend has a different relationship to the different Reason heroes than the SMT I and II protagonists with the Law/Chaos hero. Strange Journey is heavily neutral oriented and Zelenin is not presented as a combatant and Jiminez is a lone wolf type character so they have some narrative justification for their mechanical absence from the MC's party.
• Addition of Mission structure instead of linear story.
  • This is something that is very similar to how missions were introduced into portable Metal Gear Solid games like Peace walker (Ghost babel had chapters that were called missions though). The mission structure worked in Peace Walker just like it worked in Strange Journey. They considered the medium (handheld platform) They took a linear story, chopped it up into objectives the player would be told about as they moved through each area and ticked off event flags. While also introducing optional side-quests that were explicitly stored on some quest log for you to complete. All this is explicitly managed by a menu so you can review what you have completed and what your current objectives are. Compare that to the previous, non-mission based entries where you have a single unbroken story you play through with optional content on the side for you to pick at at your leisure.
    
  • Then you get SMT IV and Metal Gear Solid V respectively which have similar problems with their mission structures. Strange Journey's mission mode worked because you never left the main quest and you made alignment decisions purely off your reactions to events in those main quests. Flagging was clear and organized so you know what you needed to start a quest and what it would do for you when completed. Side-quests were also purely for loot, fusions, and upgrade materials. SMT IV however gives you the main quest missions and challenge missions that factor into the main quests missions without telling you this. And it also makes it so that you can affect alignment through any decision you make along the way but you will screw yourself out of one ending if you didn't take the quests it didn't tell you you needed to take to get the one you want.
    • MGS V did the same thing with the multiple hidden endings that were based off unclear prompts or flagging.

2.Casual how? Awakening getting a mode that lets death not be permanent doesn't seem casual, it seems inclusive, this is not Dark Souls' world we're talking about, this is a single player SRPG on a handheld device, if you want to bust you balls, put it on OG hard mode and go to Apothesis secret route and get your shit pushed in like I did. No one stopped me, and no one is stopping you.

Spoiler

Casual in terms of story more than mechanics. Or a more appropriate term would be watered down. Compare the narratives of Persona 4 to Persona 2. Compare SMT I-III with Strange Journey and SMT IV. Notice anything different about the execution of the narratives? Notice how the later games are less oppressive in tone despite having some heavy subject matter? Notice anything different about how characterization goes about? Especially with recurring characters like Lucifer and whatever passes itself off as the Law entity? Sure in some respect Megaten games have gotten easier on a mechanical level, but that's only really been with IV because SJ is still regarded as a ball crushingly hard game and I'm inclined to agree at times.

3.Fire Emblem got a new artist, because they've had the same damn art style for ages now and wanted something different for a little bit, not just instant anime, because Fire Emblem has always been anime, they just had a different artist. SMT has also been anime as fuck, dunno if you guys remember, but back in the 90's, THAT'S WHAT ANIME LOOKED LIKE. See :Beserk,Lain, Akira, GITS, Gundam Wing etc etc.

Spoiler

Now we're talking specifically about #FE's aesthetics. Did they have pop idols in fire emblem? Too many belts on a character? Gaudy trenchcoats with popped colors? I saw a mask on either Marth or Lucina but that's about as common as Char masks on 80's anime characters. To reiterate, not much of a fire emblem player but I bet you that the earlier aesthetics were more about styilized costumes with a fantasy background and not the post FF VII costumes JRPG's became known for. It's why I like FF VI's designs so much, fancy but meaningful.

When I say "anime" I mean the more contemporary sterotype of anime. Art style isn't that big a factor because you can change styles and still retain the aesthetics of the previous works. Look at how SMT made the transition to 3d with it's 2d sprites. And how Fire Emblem made it into 3D models on the gamecube. Same overall aesthetic, different style and considerations.

What I've seen from old fire emblem compared to the most recent games were outfits that were grounded in their setting and don't seem to contain too much blatant fanservice unlike the last round of trailers and outfits I've seen. Not saying that everything is different since I also see lots of armor and such from the most recent fire emblem games, but there seems to be a clear difference in what makes up the outliers of each generation.

Smt has always been 80's-90's inspired mixes of Anime and Japanese culture but it was also grounded in it's designs. I've read articles and essays about how certain monster designs were based around not just mythology, but cultural icons and references as well as social phenomenon. The end result is a cohesive image with few outliers. That at least SMT IV kept consistent with the human characters and settings and the problems with the demons was from having too many cooks in the kitchen without a head chef to keep the plating consistent. They are also fixing that it seems with this new title since fans raised enough noise about it.

Both these franchises have been doing WHAT THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN DOING, you're just too young to remember what the context was around these games but old enough to have played the older games so you notice the difference.

No argument here, I wasn't born when Megami Tensei came out and was probably learning how to walk when SMT I first came out.

But it's been made very clear by Atlus itself about how they have changed their focus and design choices over the years. Megaten has had spinoffs and crossovers before. Majin Tensei, SMT if..., the countless remakes of SMT I and II, Jack frost on the Virtual boy, the various OVA's and Anime series from the 90's, look at their wikipedia. I wasn't a part of the community then and have no strong information about how people took things outside of the games when they came out. But here I am now after over a decade of playing the games and being here for the releases of all their content. I don't know how people took the Megami Tensei OVA's then, but I know how people took the Persona 4 anime now.

An Mature rated game made by Atlus and Intelligent that has something to do with the entertainment industry that talks about pain, loneliness, the fakeness of other people, insecurity, and the act of destruction of previous deeds you've found admirable.

We just had a discussion about how execution matters with stories. Look at Strange Journey. M rating, death of research crews, horrible torture, death and dismemberment not to mention actual pictures of what the chaos ending would lead too which reminds me of scenes from Eternal Darkness. Yet the game is still relatively light hearted and vibrant. Not to mention the ham-fisted environmental messages.

Let's not throw out baseless accusations.

That's fine because I didn't. Looking at the SMT side of what's being shown it's more Persona than anything else I don't think anyone can deny that at this point. What defines the mainline games is a very heavy gothic story that inevitably takes the player through the apocolypse and beyond in a cosmic battle between the concepts that move the universe and the player is merely a pawn that was fortunate enough to be close enough to the other side of the board to get promoted and gain value. Persona is the franchise with more personal stories and character driven narratives with stories that revolve around their lives and how it ties into the main dilemnas. And that is what this game is, the story of youths trying to make it into the entertainment industry juxtaposed with a great threat. Saying that the game is marketed to pander to the mainstream (adding this qualifier here since that's what I mean) anime and otaku crowds is also mostly accurate based on what the source materials offered and what was made.

Am I being hyperbolic, in parts sure. Am I making baseless accusations, not at all.

Sorry if this post is a mess and went on too long, I have work in 4 hours but I'll clean it up after I get back.

 

[iLoli]

I will make a bigger post about this later but I'm going outside soon so the quick and dirty is for now.

1. It seems to me that the lessening of the party size on a persona level was to make your party's decisions more meaningful. While I do having miss having six characters at once, I do also love the opportunity attacks, one more system is better balanced than Extra Turn because holy shit Extra turn was broken. I also love having an extra skill just because I brought two compatible persona along, I love that characters can and will take a hit for me.

2.In story telling more than mechanics? Uh yeah? They're different games, that's like asking me to compare FF 6 to FF 10 and then go "see, the series has become more casual". No, they're different games, look at Devil Survivor. A game that is relatively new to the series and came out near the same timeline as your accusation of being "watered down", a game that if does nothing else right, sets the tone. They never let you forget that your city is doomed and that if you don't find a way out, you are dead. Persona 1 and 2 were less ambitious games, they were still using mainline SMT mechanics. So it's condensed form makes it seem more oppressive, while it really isn't. People really forget how goofy Persona 1 and 2 were. If Persona 1 and 2 came out new with the new technology Atlus had, you would be able to take photographs at Maya's job, you would probably able to go hang out with Ulala and go boxing, etc etc. P1 and P2 were very linear in that regard, and that's something p3 and P4 does a little better, we see the main casts entire lives because of the mechanical structure of that game.

P1 is pretty lighthearted (unless we doing alt. storyline, which is more somber)
P2 is pretty silly
P2 2 is more mature
P3 is pretty mature
P4 is pretty silly

Smt is bog standard anime faire.
Smt 2 is actually pretty silly compared to 1.
Smt 3 is the grimmest of them all by a decent bit.
Smt 4 is also bog standard anime faire.


3.In terms of "anime". Yeah, that's exactly my point. Anime back in the day wasn't really about pop stars, it was a little different, so SMT was a little different. Nowadays anime is all over the place, hence why SMT is all over the place. ANIME is dictating Atlus and IE's designs, not the other way around.

Both companies have always just looked at anime and said "yeah, let's tool around with that", it's just now the anime has changed.

 

[Aden]

Info round up for SMT IV-2 if you don't bother reading the links or just missed stuff

Spoiler: Story

The stage is set in Tokyo of the year 203X.

In order to avoid destruction from the war against the gods that suddenly broke out 25 years prior, thick bedrock was made to cover the sky, which also prevented any contact with those outside.

It wasn’t long until the battle ended, and the people of Tokyo began to fight and murder others for the little amount of supplies and resources that remained, as they’ve become ruled over by the angels and demons that stood atop the food chain.

The protagonist (voiced by Hiro Shimono) has been spending his days as an apprentice of an organization called the Outlaw Hunters. He takes a surprise attack from a demon while out on a mission, then dies.

After his death, the protagonist wanders around the kingdom of Hades, and it’s where he encounters the Majin (Demon God) known as “Daguza” (shown above). The young man reluctantly comes to an agreement with Daguza, who had plans of his own.

“From this day forward, you will be my ‘God Killer.’ Together, we will kill all gods.”

Daguza then provides the young man with a new life, and the “demon summoning” ability, that lets him call out demons to his aid. The young man goes back to reality with his newfound power that is more than enough to make it through the fights at the Demon Capital, Tokyo, alongside Daguza, who resides inside the protagonist’s smartphone, as he begins to monitor the young man…

During this time, the “Final War” between the Archangel Merkabah and the Demon King Lucifer was nearing its end; however, a group of gods called the “Association of Gods” have descended.

Led by the Majin Krishna, with the objective of “relieving all humans,” the group begins to demand mankind to relinquish their souls.

Bits of info from the Famitsu scans
Krishna appears during what would have been the final battle between Merkabah and Lucifer.
Lucifer mentions YHVH's name directly, talking about asking for the hero's help to smear him on the ground.
Medusa was defeated before, but has been brought back by Krishna's group.

Spoiler: Characters

Mysterious Demon (CV: Shuichi Ikeda): after the death of the protagonist, this mysterious demons finds him wandering the underworld and forms a contract with him, giving him a new life and the ability to summon demons.

Asahi (CV: Seike Tomoko): a 15-year-old girl and childhood friend of the protagonist. She’s also part of the Outlaw Hunters organization.

Navarre (CV: Shintaro Oohata): the same Navarre from Shin Megami Tensei IV. After losing his life for something petty, Navarre wasn’t able to properly find peace in the afterlife, and that’s when he meets the protagonist. He currently has the form of a green bod

Spoiler: Development

Doi s the character designer and redrew the guest demons, which will apparently be present. The game started off as the Maniax edition of IV, then they just decided to make a whole game. The theme of the game is "Should I bond with, or kill them all?", showing the "reality" of the limits of humans and telling an ambiguous story with "simple" RPG gameplay. Every system present in IV has been revamped in some way due to fan feedback, (Example: You will be able to choose your partner in battle this time, they will level up with you and of course all have some sort of dedicated tool set such as healing or magical attacks.) they want this to be the best RPG on the 3DS and are trying to make it as enjoyable as possible, even to people who did not play IV.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

I have a friend who recently played through SMT 1, and said it was his favorite rpg he had played of the year (above Undertale), for "feels" and all that.

He admitted it was a piece of shit to actually play, but there's a very unique atmosphere and style to it when you play straight through, and the writing is better then you might expect when you take those in.

Based on his (admittedly esoteric) experience, I wouldn't call it "bog standard" anything, even if the gameplay hasn't aged well.

 

[iLoli]

I have a friend who recently played through SMT 1, and said it was his favorite rpg he had played of the year (above Undertale), for "feels" and all that.

He admitted it was a piece of shit to actually play, but there's a very unique atmosphere and style to it when you play straight through, and the writing is better then you might expect when you take those in.

Based on his (admittedly esoteric) experience, I wouldn't call it "bog standard" anything, even if the gameplay hasn't aged well.

Not in term of gameplay, just tone.

There are a fair bit of games that have a similar tone to SMT that came out around SMT, granted not all of them set off nukes, but there was usually some big dramatic thing when a character would get left behind while the protag advanced.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, but you could say that about any game. Metroid wasn't the first game to have exploration, Dodonpachi wasn't the first shmup to have a pixel sized hitbox (that was actually Batsuugan Special, I believe), etc. even though those games are thought of as the codifiers of their genres. SMT did do some fairly unique things (storywise) and did them well (which many other games didn't).

The gameplay is very archaic though. Fusion, Demon Negotiation, and alignment are actually pretty innovative, even though many of these concepts are lifted (but heavily altered to fit the themes of the game) from Tabletop Rpg's and maybe other older computer rpg's. It's just a little hard to see that now since those innovations are fossilized in a shell of clunkiness and annoyance.



Also about SMT 4 Final: Any word on who's working on the soundtrack?

 

[Ruin]

yeah that's all cool and stuff but can you do

T H I S ?

 

[iLoli]

Yeah, but you could say that about any game. Metroid wasn't the first game to have exploration, Dodonpachi wasn't the first shmup to have a pixel sized hitbox (that was actually Batsuugan Special, I believe), etc. even though those games are thought of as the codifiers of their genres. SMT did do some fairly unique things (storywise) and did them well (which many other games didn't).

The gameplay is very archaic though. Fusion, Demon Negotiation, and alignment are actually pretty innovative, even though many of these concepts are lifted (but heavily altered to fit the themes of the game) from Tabletop Rpg's and maybe other older computer rpg's. It's just a little hard to see that now since those innovations are fossilized in a shell of clunkiness and annoyance.



Also about SMT 4 Final: Any word on who's working on the soundtrack?

That's all to do with gameplay though, not the tone.

It's been a bit since I played the older the SMT's but the only older games that got my heart racing were 3 and the DDS games.

SMT 1 just feels kind of standard in terms of tone, there are 2 really cool parts but other than that everything amazing about SMT 1 comes from gameplay.

 

[PaperBag_Sniper]

I will make a bigger post about this later but I'm going outside soon so the quick and dirty is for now.

1. It seems to me that the lessening of the party size on a persona level was to make your party's decisions more meaningful. While I do having miss having six characters at once, I do also love the opportunity attacks, one more system is better balanced than Extra Turn because holy shit Extra turn was broken. I also love having an extra skill just because I brought two compatible persona along, I love that characters can and will take a hit for me.

Yeah but like I said about Nocturne, when you design a game around it it works. But with SMT IV (the most recent outing of the mainline megaten games) not having your law/neutral/chaos heroes as controllable party members is a problem from both a mechanical and narrative perspective. It's worse becasue when I had Johnathan in my party he would sometimes cast Bufu on enemies that were resistant to ice, or not heal himself when he was low on health and I don't think the option to heal him was presented. So there was my example about how changing mechanics between games created a problem.
I didn't once bring up Persona because it's been it's own offshoot and been consistent with itself across the PS1 games, and PS2 games.

2.In story telling more than mechanics? Uh yeah? They're different games, that's like asking me to compare FF 6 to FF 10 and then go "see, the series has become more casual". No, they're different games, look at Devil Survivor. A game that is relatively new to the series and came out near the same timeline as your accusation of being "watered down", a game that if does nothing else right, sets the tone. They never let you forget that your city is doomed and that if you don't find a way out, you are dead.

I keep saying that this "watering down" problem happened around Strange Journey and SMT IV. Devil survivor 1 doesn't fall under that timeline but what about Devil Survivor 2 otherwise known as Shin Megami Tensei: Evangelion edition? Look at the spinoffs that were on the NES and SNES. You have games like If..., Jack Bros. Majin Tensei and several others. Aside from the Game boy outing which were clearly aimed at a much younger audience all the other games carried that same iconic imagery and dark visuals that the Shin Megami Tensei games would introduce. So really, until the Playstation 2 there wasn't too much of a tonal change to the Megaten franchise. Then we got Nocturne which drastically changed things and let into DDS, Raidou, and Persona 3.

Persona 1 and 2 were less ambitious games, they were still using mainline SMT mechanics.

What? Less ambitious? What?

Only Persona 1 really has a strong influence from the Main franchise. Persona 2 is where the series stretched out it's limbs and started to define itself much more strongly.

So it's condensed form makes it seem more oppressive, while it really isn't. People really forget how goofy Persona 1 and 2 were. If Persona 1 and 2 came out new with the new technology Atlus had, you would be able to take photographs at Maya's job, you would probably able to go hang out with Ulala and go boxing, etc etc. P1 and P2 were very linear in that regard, and that's something p3 and P4 does a little better, we see the main casts entire lives because of the mechanical structure of that game.

Social links are a mixed bag and I have an older post about some of the pros and cons of that system compared to how Persona 2 handled character interactions.

P1 is pretty lighthearted (unless we doing alt. storyline, which is more somber)
P2 is pretty silly
P2 2 is more mature
P3 is pretty mature
P4 is pretty silly

Smt is bog standard anime faire.
Smt 2 is actually pretty silly compared to 1.
Smt 3 is the grimmest of them all by a decent bit.
Smt 4 is also bog standard anime faire.

Flip P3 and P2's descriptors and stop calling SMT I standard because at the time it was breaking relatively unused soil in role playing games. Not many games prior to that even used modern settings at the time. I would argue that SMT II is grim and Nocturne is bleak.

3.In terms of "anime". Yeah, that's exactly my point. Anime back in the day wasn't really about pop stars, it was a little different, so SMT was a little different. Nowadays anime is all over the place, hence why SMT is all over the place. ANIME is dictating Atlus and IE's designs, not the other way around.

Both companies have always just looked at anime and said "yeah, let's tool around with that", it's just now the anime has changed.

Your missing my point. At the point that SMT was being made there was already enough genres represented within the Japanese animation medium for it to be "all over the place" There were also clear styles that existed within the different age/gender demographics like Shoujo and Shonen, so having designs in games that are all over the place is because their isn't a unified direction (SMT IV did this). Nocturne wasn't "all over the place" and it came out in the 2000's. Persona 3 and 4 weren't "all over the place" since there was a concerted effort to keep things a certain style.

My gripe is with things like adding Gothic Lolita character designs to games that don't even really take place in a timescale where that fashion trend would exist. I mean maybe I'm wrong and medieval castles had little girls running around with twin hair drills and french maid outfits? Gotta keep saying this, haven't played more than 1 fire emblem game and I find that stuff kind of egregious.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And all this is to really say that I'm still bitter over getting my hopes up for a game that wasn't really concretely put out and the actual product is vastly different than anything I had anticipated. Not to mention that what is being shown doesn't really interest me in the slightest, I don't even know if the combat system will be any fun to play from the few videos I can see about it. Hell, seeing a tandem attack that lasts as long as a Final Fantasy eidolon summon and it's drenched in j-pop made me cringe a little.

It's a spin-off of the Megaten franchise. It's going to be in it's own little pocket and it's not really affecting the design of Persona 5 in any immediately noticeable way which is fine. But as a guy who really wants something on the level of SMT II or Nocturne, and has been waiting for a long time to get that fix from Atlus, and has been getting blue balled by games that don't quite get there; I can't help but look at #FE and think about what could have been instead of what is in front of me.

 

[Ruin]

"I really like how it feels"
whoa there pal this is a kid's show

 

[PaperBag_Sniper]

Info round up for SMT IV-2 if you don't bother reading the links or just missed stuff

Spoiler: Story

The stage is set in Tokyo of the year 203X.

In order to avoid destruction from the war against the gods that suddenly broke out 25 years prior, thick bedrock was made to cover the sky, which also prevented any contact with those outside.

It wasn’t long until the battle ended, and the people of Tokyo began to fight and murder others for the little amount of supplies and resources that remained, as they’ve become ruled over by the angels and demons that stood atop the food chain.

The protagonist (voiced by Hiro Shimono) has been spending his days as an apprentice of an organization called the Outlaw Hunters. He takes a surprise attack from a demon while out on a mission, then dies.

After his death, the protagonist wanders around the kingdom of Hades, and it’s where he encounters the Majin (Demon God) known as “Daguza” (shown above). The young man reluctantly comes to an agreement with Daguza, who had plans of his own.

“From this day forward, you will be my ‘God Killer.’ Together, we will kill all gods.”

Daguza then provides the young man with a new life, and the “demon summoning” ability, that lets him call out demons to his aid. The young man goes back to reality with his newfound power that is more than enough to make it through the fights at the Demon Capital, Tokyo, alongside Daguza, who resides inside the protagonist’s smartphone, as he begins to monitor the young man…

During this time, the “Final War” between the Archangel Merkabah and the Demon King Lucifer was nearing its end; however, a group of gods called the “Association of Gods” have descended.

Led by the Majin Krishna, with the objective of “relieving all humans,” the group begins to demand mankind to relinquish their souls.

Bits of info from the Famitsu scans
Krishna appears during what would have been the final battle between Merkabah and Lucifer.
Lucifer mentions YHVH's name directly, talking about asking for the hero's help to smear him on the ground.
Medusa was defeated before, but has been brought back by Krishna's group.

Spoiler: Characters

Mysterious Demon (CV: Shuichi Ikeda): after the death of the protagonist, this mysterious demons finds him wandering the underworld and forms a contract with him, giving him a new life and the ability to summon demons.

Asahi (CV: Seike Tomoko): a 15-year-old girl and childhood friend of the protagonist. She’s also part of the Outlaw Hunters organization.

Navarre (CV: Shintaro Oohata): the same Navarre from Shin Megami Tensei IV. After losing his life for something petty, Navarre wasn’t able to properly find peace in the afterlife, and that’s when he meets the protagonist. He currently has the form of a green bod

Spoiler: Development

Doi s the character designer and redrew the guest demons, which will apparently be present. The game started off as the Maniax edition of IV, then they just decided to make a whole game. The theme of the game is "Should I bond with, or kill them all?", showing the "reality" of the limits of humans and telling an ambiguous story with "simple" RPG gameplay. Every system present in IV has been revamped in some way due to fan feedback, (Example: You will be able to choose your partner in battle this time, they will level up with you and of course all have some sort of dedicated tool set such as healing or magical attacks.) they want this to be the best RPG on the 3DS and are trying to make it as enjoyable as possible, even to people who did not play IV.

Liking what I read in that third spoiler. Now I'm curious about how many routes will be avaliable assuming that every major faction represents one. I'm getting at least 5 out of this.

 

[SanoBaron]

I can't help but look at #FE and think about what could have been instead of what is in front of me.

if you ask me, this could stem more from the fact that what we were initially promised was something they didn't even get started at all. I mean, it was so broad a trailer that nobody even thought it might not be catered to them.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

That's all to do with gameplay though, not the tone.

It's been a bit since I played the older the SMT's but the only older games that got my heart racing were 3 and the DDS games.

SMT 1 just feels kind of standard in terms of tone, there are 2 really cool parts but other than that everything amazing about SMT 1 comes from gameplay.

First paragraph was about tone.

I don't think it's standard in terms of tone at all. It's a world apart from the Final Fantasies, Dragon Quests, even the point and click games of the time. I'm sure you could find some games that were similar, but that still be ignoring the subtler elements that make SMT it's own thing.

The "alignment" system is also completely it's own thing, thematically. It's technically lifted from dnd and other things that copied DND, but the interpretation of it in SMT is totally unique. It's basically Thomas Hobbes political philosophies examined through a facade of mysticism.

Disagree. The gameplay like I said is a fossilized mess that's only barely playable with an faq by your side, it's the atmosphere/style/tone/setting that make it interesting. It's not my favorite game, in gameplay or story (I couldn't stomach it, it was my friend who finished it and loved it) but it's certainly unique.


*edit*

Only jrpg's of the time I can think of that are tonally similar would be Phantasy Star II (not as dark, but close. lacks the political side of smt though), and Sweet Home (has horror elements and set in the modern day). The first World of Mana game is also pretty tragic, but more in a sweeping, personal, romantic kind of way compared to SMT's impersonal nuclear Armageddon. There are some similarities but SMT has always had a very unique "flavor", and calling it "bog standard" is pretty wrong IMO.

Keep in mind that's not saying SMT I is better than any of those games. Personally I'd take Phantasy Star 2's world and setting over almost anything SMT, but all these games have their own unique flavors.

 

[Aden]

Spoiler: Above us only sky

 

[Ruin]

darn
that's pretentious
we've hit new levels of pretentious here in the Shin Megami Tensei franchise

 

[Stairwayyy]

I've seen more pretentiousness on the back of Milk cartons.

 

[Aden]

Also, just looking at stuff this timeline is more confusing to me every time, the ceiling is in place but Merkaba and Lucifer are about, implying we're at the end of IV, which also allows for Navarre being dead, but why is Nozomi hanging out and still human at this point?

 

[shoryusatsu999]

I bet it's yet another alternate timeline that we never got to explore in the main game.

 

[DDB]

Alternatively, it takes place right before the ending.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

I hate to revive this topic, but another thing just struck me about the whole "what was unique about SMT 1" topic above.

You can say "well, in lots of other rpg's of the time, you had to leave behind party members etc.". But that's not what happened in SMT 1.

In SMT 1, your friends, who were built up as basically good people during the first half, don't just die. They become corrupt and morally degenerate over the course of the story, and then die in disgrace. For instance you have the Law Hero, who starts out a sweet, sensitive guy, and ends up being indoctrinated by a facist cult, and spewing hateful rhetoric by the end. Then he dies completely alone, killed by a former friend and abandoned by the cult and deity he threw everything away for.

I mean sure, Final Fantasy 2 on the nes had several party members who made heroic sacrifices and died and whatnot, and everyone who played Phantasy Star 2 and 4 probably got weepy over two certain characters, but those were all "good" deaths for good people. It was a different kind of tragedy. SMT 1 is a lot bleaker because the villains aren't genocidal super villains: they're your former best friends who have become genocidal super villains when pushed too far. It's a lot nastier and grimmer to have your friend become something hateful than to have them go out in an act of virtue.

Again, not saying it's one of the greatest games ever (my friend might), but it was (thematically and aesthetically) very different from the standard rpg formula for the time and not what I'd call "standard" by a longshot. I'm sure you could find a few games that were similar, just like you could find adventure games that predate Zelda, but unless there's a whole catalog of dark, morality concerned 8 and 16 bit console jrpg's I'm missing out on, I don't see where the bog standard thing is coming from.

 

[iLoli]

Fair enough.

I honestly do not remember much about SMT 1 other than a couple of key events.

I retract my statement in front of overwhelming evidence.

 

[DDB]

How about when Thor launched the nuke and you futilely tried to escape the building in 30 seconds

 

[iLoli]

How about when Thor launched the nuke and you futilely tried to escape the building in 30 seconds

I remember the dumb phantom realm bullshit that proceeded.

 

[Ruin]

remember when that one guy sends your grandpa to the shadow realm

 

[Aden]

More stuff translated

https://did%3D9556051732153d7801b792d964992a23237b4851%3Bid%3D130835715798%3Bkey%3DLLXS2Ob0PUNSQ_e6lwQulQ%3Bname%3Ddijeh

Only 24 more demons than in SMT IV, kind of disappointed since I was hoping for a few that didn't return as well as new stuff, but it's a lot regardless.

Clip about the story since we've been talking about tone, there is more and I recommend reading the full translation.

From the very beginning, Shin Megami Tensei has constantly presented a dark story and world view which deeply entwined human drama with the gods and demons often depicted in RPGs as allies or enemies, with both sides using or toying with each other. This is something I learnt from Kaneko as well, but I also want to pay attention to in this game: this is Megaten, where you can taste the feeling of falling from grace and the complications it causes in the lives of humans. Moreover, touching on the subject of the relationships between gods, demons and humans in SMT4F…actually no, let me tell you first why demons and gods are concerned with humans in the first place, since that’s an interpretation of the game’s basis.

This is just an interpretation, but humans make gods and teachings about them the norm in their lives, so when something bad happens it’s considered the doing of some demon; to keep their hearts at peace in this tough world, they need facets like gods and demons. This will slide into epistemology, but gods and demons exist for people who believe in them and don’t for those who don’t believe, and if you stop believing, they, the target of your faith, disappear. Following the point of view that people’s belief is the proof of the existence and strength of gods and demons, we can see a sort of symbiotic relationship. However, as human civilisation develops, people end up wanting to live without being bound to anything, but on the other hand there’s also the fragile future which makes us wonder whether humans can actually live independently… These complications form the basis of SMT4F. In order to portray a good grasp of the conflict between monotheism and polytheism, the opposition between humans and the gods who have a close relationship to them, we aimed to construct the story starting with the human drama which will become the foundation.

There are two big points regarding this. First, it shows people in critical situations, including a much necessary realism. Second, there’s a certain area that is either unexplored or written ambiguously, fantasy style, in the majority of RPGs - together with the story’s theme, the point of strongly stepping into into the players’ comfort zone. At the risk of being misunderstood, we included the theme of ‘bonds or killing everyone?’. ‘Killing everyone’ might sound extreme, but considering the wealth of ideologies present nowadays there is also the course of aiming for bonds where one considers whether these relationships should be important and whether they can empathise with others or not. If the player feels that direction is wrong, if he becomes a bad guy for example, maybe he thinks he needs something to guide him to the right path… Perhaps this kind of complicated feelings will sometimes be transmitted in this game through the contact of gods and demons with humans. It’s not like the game tells you what is right and what is wrong, but I really hope that after finishing SMT4F the players will remain with a sense of values they themselves have discovered through the various events and encounters of the game. I think that is Megaten’s true worth.

 

[Ruin]

so is that a no to the lockers thing

 

[DDB]

http://megaten4f.jp/

Stream going on, they already showed a gameplay trailer.

 

[BeatNinja]

Bip

 

[Aden]

Why does he have the same face mark Akira had in both timelines?

 

[Squire Grooktook]

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/10/1...follow-a-neutral-route-with-multiple-endings/

More details

The tidbit on stats being revamped seems like a guarantee we're getting defense back.

I just hope they kick save anywhere to the curb. "Casuals be damned" - Keisuke Tadakuma

 

[Aden]

Interested in learning more about the routes.

Also, loving the new design.

 

[PaperBag_Sniper]

if you ask me, this could stem more from the fact that what we were initially promised was something they didn't even get started at all. I mean, it was so broad a trailer that nobody even thought it might not be catered to them.

If that's been the case my reaction to #FE would have been the same as towards DAN. Something I just looked at from over the fence and shrugged my shoulders at.

------------------------

Actual gameplay from the game vs Medusa. I can see the partner system in action here as well. Your partner is still that weird 5th slot under your main party but going off the interview from Siliconera, partner's will have more focused roles so picking them should be more tactical. There is also a blue gauge above your partner's health that fills up every time they take an action (they seem to still act at the end of the player's turn). Around 7:00 you can see that the meter can be maxed out due to a conversation the player has with Medusa.

At 7:25 we see what happens with a full partner meter, they will interrupt the enemy's turn and do a tandem attack with the other partners the player has (this was mentioned in the Siliconera article)

 

[Aden]

At 7:25 we see what happens with a full partner meter, they will interrupt the enemy's turn and do a tandem attack with the other partners the player has

This looks terrible, in a visual sense.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

If that's been the case my reaction to #FE would have been the same as towards DAN. Something I just looked at from over the fence and shrugged my shoulders at.

For me, it just comes down to wasted potential. A demon summoning srpg conjures (:PUJNA:) so many tantalizing ideas and possibilities. Dropping the idea in favor of another dungeon crawler, when regular smt and several other Atlus titles fulfills multiple varieties of that niche already, is the stuff broken hearts are made out of.

 

[Aden]

Oh hey, moon phases.

 

[PaperBag_Sniper]

For me, it just comes down to wasted potential. A demon summoning srpg conjures (:PUJNA:) so many tantalizing ideas and possibilities. Dropping the idea in favor of another dungeon crawler, when regular smt and several other Atlus titles fulfills multiple varieties of that niche already, is the stuff broken hearts are made out of.

No disagreement. I'd just have preferred they solidified a design that incorporated srpg elements instead of going the current route they did. And if they were going to make another Persona-style dungeon crawler I'd rather they just lead with that instead of leading me on with the promise of other (greater) things.

RE: Your friends experience with SMT 1. The gameplay is definitely archaic but I'd be interested to hear your friend's impressions of SMT II if they ever get to it.