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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

WindWolf said:
Am I really the only one in this world who does not like the concept of tier-lists in the first place

Tiers will always exist. That's how it is.
Though what we've been talking about recently are match ups. Pretty important to try and figure out your characters pros in cons in every mu
 
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WindWolf said:
Am I really the only one in this world who does not like the concept of tier-lists in the first place
What IS the concept of tier lists in your opinion, and why is it flawed?

And most likely no, because you wouldn't even be the only one in this world that believes the world is actually a square and the US president is just a puppet controlled by an ancient race consisting of direct descendants of the last Stegosaurus
 
IsaVulpes said:
What IS the concept of tier lists in your opinion, and why is it flawed?
In a nutshell, it feels to me like result, all the time, across all types of games, goes against the way tier-lists are shaped now(aka lots of subjective opinions)

What I would want to see is a tier-list based on numbers and performance.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Unless "Zidiane5" on PS3 is someone not you?
Oh, cool, matches from 11 months ago where the poster in the video apologizes for the laggy connection. I thought you meant some offline event (cause online kinda doesn't matter).

Also, on the Parasoul reaction test, it is super hard to differentiate between her jump and her Napalm Pillar, you're right there. But it's still something you can react to if you know she wants to do it and get a feel for the opponent. Like, in a real match against a real person who isn't randomly alternating between jump, something, and Pillar. Cause I've done it offline to Icky a couple times, it's definitely not something that you should rule out because being 33% or 50% sure she may do it isn't quite the same thing.
 
WindWolf said:
Am I really the only one in this world who does not like the concept of tier-lists in the first place

Not really, when Tiers are mentioned it pretty much goes like this:

fight_zps7eb013b8.jpg
 
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WindWolf said:
In a nutshell, it feels to me like result, all the time, across all types of games, goes against the way tier-lists are shaped now(aka lots of subjective opinions)

What I would want to see is a tier-list based on numbers and performance.
The problem with "numbers and performance" is that in the real world you don't have 10 Top Players who are exactly 1:1 as strong as each other per character.
You have 100 Top Players playing Char A and one Top player playing Char B - Then out of 100 Tournaments, A has 95x wins, while Char B has 5, does this mean that Char A is 19x stronger than Char B? Surely not.
Does this mean that CharB is 5x as strong as Char A (because he's expected to score 1% but scores 5%)? Or maybe it's just that the player of B has TONS of matchup experience against A, while A players lack the same against CharB, making their results weaker?

What if the clearly best player in the community wins every single tournament, does this automatically make Valentine,Filia,Double S-Tier while all other characters are shit?

PLAYERS win tournaments, not characters. The game is balanced enough that it comes down to player skill, and if Players decide to play a certain character - be that because it fits their playstyle, or because they like how the character looks, or because their crush told them that this character is cool, or whatever else reason you could have to pick a character - then they perform with it.
This can have small effects like konkrete getting 9th(?) instead of Top8 @ EVO because he plays Para/PW instead of a good team, but these effects are so marginal that given our laughably small sample size toppled with general unscientific ways of determining how good a player is in comparison to another.. well, you might as well ignore them.

In the end, Duckator wins everything he attends; and he would also win everything he attends if he played Fortune/Parasoul/Bella, and he would also win everything he attends if he played Peacock/Squigly/Filia, and ..whatever - as such, results as the primary selection method for tier placement just.. don't work.

Zidiane said:
Oh, cool, matches from 11 months ago.
I wrote SDE and I wrote that it means nothing. Can't do more than that for you ^_^
 
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Dolfinh said:
Can I get some more insight into why Squigs - Filia is only a 4-6? I feel like my tools against filia are very, very limited.

I'm not saying you are wrong by any means, but what tools have you really looked at as far as countering filia? I only ask because Im pretty sure that mike gave just about every character that when used pre emptively can stop filias iad attacks. Painwheel st.mk, parasoul st.lp or cr.mp, Bella st.lk, BB cr.mk, Val st.mk... Etc


Not saying that squiglys has something like that, but... Maybe she does.
 
s.MP (I think). I personally use j.LK, though.
 
Zidiane said:
But it's still something you can react to if you know she wants to do it and get a feel for the opponent. Like, in a real match against a real person who isn't randomly alternating between jump, something, and Pillar.
Yeah, if you know beforehand that she's gonna do it, you can MGR "on reaction". If I know beforehand that my opponent is going for a Throw, I can tech it too. That doesn't mean I teched on reaction, cus quite frankly that's impossible. Reads are not reaction.

If you seriously think you react to Pillar, I figure you should try playing vs Guitalex; I presume that in that match neither does anything, because both of you have no problem blocking things like Filia's predictable resets, slowass Fortune HK.Fiber etc on reaction, .. here was some other guy who reaction jumped Bella 360, you could invite him as well
 
Dolfinh said:
Can I get some more insight into why Squigs - Filia is only a 4-6? I feel like my tools against filia are very, very limited.
J.Lk is very good. A quick j.Mp option selected into J.Hp pushes her away. Liver mortis also helps a lot. Other than that, Squigs is just as screwed as anyone else.
 
Zidiane said:
Oh, cool, matches from 11 months ago where the poster in the video apologizes for the laggy connection. I thought you meant some offline event (cause online kinda doesn't matter).

Also, on the Parasoul reaction test, it is super hard to differentiate between her jump and her Napalm Pillar, you're right there. But it's still something you can react to if you know she wants to do it and get a feel for the opponent. Like, in a real match against a real person who isn't randomly alternating between jump, something, and Pillar. Cause I've done it offline to Icky a couple times, it's definitely not something that you should rule out because being 33% or 50% sure she may do it isn't quite the same thing.

"reacting" and "foresight" are two totally different things.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Matchup Charts are still not the same thing as a Tier list btw
You're absolutely correct.

And matchup charts are also not formed solely from opinions. At some point there needs to be some data collected in the form of actual matches... But this isn't a perfect world.
 
RemiKz said:
"reacting" and "foresight" are two totally different things.
That's not on reaction? It feels different from when I think he's going to grab and mash grab when I see he's stopped hitting me. Because in that instance I don't know what's going to happen and I mash grab hoping he'll grab. But in this instance I can set the dummy to do nothing for 15 seconds and react to her moving with MGR. It's a lot harder to do that with grabs.

Then again, like I say from time to time, I don't know fighting game terms too well. There was a misunderstanding on my end with Guita one time because I thought reversals were... something... that they weren't... I don't remember, lol.

Anywho, my understanding of Fighting Game lingo (or lack thereof) isn't on topic. You can send me a message if you want to tell me about myself.
 
The difference between the two is if know someone behaves in a certain manor, you can predict what is going to come up and preemptively counter it. That is having foresight.

Reacting is being able to distinguish one thing from another without any previous tells, other than the start-up and then respond to it. IIRC, the average fastest human reaction time is around 21-26 frames in a 60fps game.

I guess in a technicality, you can be "reacting" to a person's tell. Whoever, usually when "reactions" are discussed in fighting games, you don't assume habits and rather refer to it as how you can literally look at the start-up of something, distinguish what it is, and then respond to it.

I figure it should be clear if people are going to be talking about the subject of how "react-able" some attacks are.
 
There are raw reads ("I know he is going to do X, let me preemptively answer that")
There are raw reactions ("He does this move that has 35f startup, I see it, I punch him out of it")
And there are tons of things in between, varying degrees of reaction paired with varying degrees of read.

Base example:
You are at midrange vs Filia. She does Dash, slight pause, c.MK.
A bit later in the match, at the same position, she does Dash, slight pause, c.MK.
Further down the match, again at midrange, Filia does Dash, slight pause, twitches.
You Lvl3 her in the face.

This was *clearly* a reaction of some kind (you would not have Supered if she hadn't twitched),
But it's still 99% a read, as you didn't actually react to the c.MK, but just to her twitching (eg you would also have supered if she had done Dash, slight pause, crouchblock).

In the same vein, you can have a 100% block rate of Filia doing IAD j.LK if you know beforehand that she's going to do it (eg put a recording of her doing it, then keep loading savestate), and switch guard from crouch to standblock "on reaction", but as soon as you enter a multiple scenario case (Filia either doing c.LK or IAD j.LK or just crouchblock) it becomes impossible, as you're not actually reacting to the move, but just reacting to a twitch which you expect to become a certain move.

"I can do X on reaction" in FG terms means "Reliably, in reaction to the actual move -not a twitch-, in a real match scenario".
The border for that is roughly 20-22f with 18-19 entering the realm of reads, or in SG terms (hi frameskip) 21-26.

To put it simpler, if you're confident in blocking Parasoul s.b.HK every single time she does it, and are still happy with bumping up the difficulty of that by roughly 17%, then you are *blocking* Pillar on reaction. To actually input 214LP+LK on reaction would be .. well, harder. Good luck!
 
WindWolf said:
In a nutshell, it feels to me like result, all the time, across all types of games, goes against the way tier-lists are shaped now(aka lots of subjective opinions)
What I would want to see is a tier-list based on numbers and performance.
That's not how it works, though.
Kuroda can win pretty much any 3s tournament playing Q, or probably half a dozen other characters.
Does that mean those CHARACTERS, in the hands of an average-good player playing another average-good player, are likely to win?
Nope. It's because Kuroda is amazing.

A tier list basically indicates the likely level of success an average-good player will have overall across a large number of situations. It tries to sum up the tools each character has vs every other character, and gives a rough indication of some sort of success-vs-skill ratio if you want to learn a character from scratch*. It does not in any way apply to a specific match that is played, a tournament, or even a tournament season. It is only a general summary, and it assumes players of equal skill, which is almost never the case in real play.

The problem with tier lists is usually that players try to make them based on not-nearly-enough matchup data or play experience, which is basically this entire thread (and why it is useless).

The more matches played of a given game after the point at which the game has stopped majorly evolving, the more accurate tier lists tend to be. Although tier lists also have problems if the game has strong universal mechanics that can alter the outcome of any match, like parrying in 3s.
Some characters defy tiers (Makoto in 3s is usually listed as ?:? because it really is up to the player - if she guesses right twice you're dead no matter who you are and if she guesses wrong then bye), and some tier lists are pretty accurate. MvC2, GGXXAC, ST, etc have pretty accurate tier lists at present. But they still will not ever predict the outcome of a single match, or even a single FT10 or FT50.

On topic:
MvC2 ranks popular teams, if you really want to do it for SG you could do the same thing, i.e. you don't have to cover s.LP assists.

* this ignores how well a character fits a given player's playstyle, which can often be a better prediction of success than how high-tier that character is.
 
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Dolfinh said:
Can I get some more insight into why Squigs - Filia is only a 4-6? I feel like my tools against filia are very, very limited.
Only 4-6? It is certainly no worse than that, that's for sure.

s.MP stuffs IADs, j.MP stuffs jumps, DP knocks her across the screen, Arpeggio gets IADs as well, Liver is funny to use and nets you a stupid amount of damage, c.LP and c.HP stuff nearly all of Filia's ground routes, etc. You pretty much have enough to keep Filia out, and with the HP lvl2 DP change you have a reversal in the back.

At worst I would put it a 4.5-5.5, Squig-Filia.

Now if Filia is in and you don't have charge, you're in the mixup just like anyone else is. Have fun.
 
Does that mean I should make a new thread for popular teams?
 
That would be interesting to compile, even if we weren't to place them in a tier.

I'd also kind of be interested in an assist tier list.
 
Is double a shell?
 
WindWolf said:
Am I really the only one in this world who does not like the concept of tier-lists in the first place

I don't like them either. Just something for tier whores to use, hurts character variety, and really serves no purpose in helping players. Discussing how to deal with a matchup and stuff is useful, putting a numerical value on it isn't.
 
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RemiKz said:
Is double a shell?

I think that falls under the "captain commando" clause
 
I used to think there was something wrong with tier lists, but it's a bad thing to think about.

Tiers will exist because there's character variety. Some characters are easier to use than others. Some have more tools than others. And I'm any other game, this becomes extremely obvious and you have the same teams over and over.

However, just because the matchup is difficult doesn't mean a person can't excel with a low tier character because tier lists assume players have equal skill.

TL;DR version... Tier lists aren't bad because they aren't absolute.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Do we wanna do popular teams or popular shells?
Either

Since a shell consists of 2 characters and 2 characters consist of a team in skullgirls then it should be both or either.

The hard part will be coming up with all the "popular" teams to tier, because its highly subjective as far as who any one person plays and what region they are from. For brevitys sake though i think we should keep it to less than 20 teams and try to have every character represented at least once, that way we can have a solid place marker on why said character is on a team where they are and why they might possibly be strongest in that slot. And it also allows people to mix and match teams that may not be on the list but could certainly still be strong... Like having painwheel or squigly at second with val or fortune at the front and double at anchor.
 
I just think a lot of people go to tier lists, check who is top tier, look up some basic information and go..."There is my character!" One of the funnest parts of fighting games is experimenting with characters and seeing which gives you the most enjoyment, which fits you best. Also just cause character X is overall more powerful than character Y doesn't mean that the player will necessarily perform better with character X than character Y. They could be trying to hammer a square peg into a circle hole.
 
Isn't the only shell updo/bomber? I've never heard of any other shells.
 
blufang said:
I just think a lot of people go to tier lists, check who is top tier, look up some basic information and go..."There is my character!" One of the funnest parts of fighting games is experimenting with characters and seeing which gives you the most enjoyment, which fits you best. Also just cause character X is overall more powerful than character Y doesn't mean that the player will necessarily perform better with character X than character Y. They could be trying to hammer a square peg into a circle hole.
Not trying to knock you or anything but this exact same discussion has been held so many times for so many different fighting games already. No real point in having it again.

Stuff said:
Isn't the only shell updo/bomber? I've never heard of any other shells.
Lock 'N Load, Brass Knuckles, Napalm Shot. Or we can just say DP assist, Lockdown assist, Neutral??? (Lock 'N Load, Brass Knuckles), Hornet Bomber, Projectile, etc. if we want to simplify things.
 
Okay how the flying fuck is Peacock Parasoul a 5-5?

I would get "LK Fiber" tattooed on my ass if it was 5-5 :(
 
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So I think these are all the noteworthy assists. Anyone got anything to add/remove?

Filia:
Updo
HK Hairball
c.MK

Cerebella:
Cerecopter
Lock n' Load
Excellabella
Diamond Drop
Merry-go-rilla
Devil Horns
Battle Butt
Kancho?
Tumble Run?

Peacock:
HP
LK George
MK George
HK George
MP Bang
MP/HP SoiD

Parasoul:
Napalm Pillar
LP/HP Napalm Shot
MP Napalm Shot
HK Egret

Ms.Fortune:
HK Fiber Uppercut
MK ?
HK ?

Painwheel:
c.MP
LP Stinger
MP Stinger
HP Stinger
Buer Reaper
Pinion Dash?

Valentine:
c.MK
Mortuary Drop
Grab
HK Bypass
???

Double:
LK Hornet Bomber
MK/HK Hornet Bomber
Cilia Slide

Squigly:
Drag n' Bite
Draguen Punch
Silver Chord
Center Stage
f.HP
c.HP

Big Band:
HP Brass Knuckle
Beat Extend
HK Giant Step
LK A-Train
MK/HK A-Train
 
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Mike_Z said:
The problem with tier lists is usually that players try to make them based on not-nearly-enough matchup data or play experience, which is basically this entire thread (and why it is useless).

I think the discussion in this thread has merit, even if the conclusions being drawn are almost certainly premature.

I mean its got to be more productive than the "Who is your Waifu?" thread.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Not trying to knock you or anything but this exact same discussion has been held so many times for so many different fighting games already. No real point in having it again.

I'll drop it, I was just responding to someone else who said they don't like tier lists.
 
RemiKz said:
So I think these are all the noteworthy assists. Anyone got anything to add/remove?

Filia:
Updo
HK Hairball
c.MK

Cerebella:
Cerecopter
Lock n' Load
Excellabella
Diamond Drop
Merry-go-rilla
Devil Horns
Battle Butt
Kancho?
Tumble Run?

Peacock:
HP
LK George
MK George
HK George
MP Bang
MP/HP SoiD

Parasoul:
Napalm Pillar
LP/HP Napalm Shot
MP Napalm Shot
HK Egret

Ms.Fortune:
HK Fiber Uppercut
MK ?
HK ?

Painwheel:
c.MP
LP Stinger
MP Stinger
HP Stinger
Buer Reaper

Valentine:
c.MK
Mortuary Drop
Grab
???

Double:
LK Hornet Bomber
MK/HK Hornet Bomber
Cilia Slide

Big Band:
HP Brass Knuckle
Beat Extend
HK Giant Step
LK A-Train
MK/HK A-Train

You forgot about Pinion Dash.
 
blufang said:
I just think a lot of people go to tier lists, check who is top tier, look up some basic information and go..."There is my character!"
Yes, but that just makes that PLAYER dumb. You don't get rid of that by not having a tier list.

Not enough Parasouls use bike-sniper (to get hit out of Sniper without spending meter and leave the bike alive) for ANYONE in this thread to decide that Parasoul/Peacock sucks. I intentionally left that there...
 
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RemiKz said:
So I think these are all the noteworthy assists. Anyone got anything to add/remove?

Filia:
Updo
HK Hairball
c.MK

Cerebella:
Cerecopter
Lock n' Load
Excellabella
Diamond Drop
Merry-go-rilla
Devil Horns
Battle Butt
Kancho?
Tumble Run?

Peacock:
HP
LK George
MK George
HK George
MP Bang
MP/HP SoiD

Parasoul:
Napalm Pillar
LP/HP Napalm Shot
MP Napalm Shot
HK Egret

Ms.Fortune:
HK Fiber Uppercut
MK ?
HK ?

Painwheel:
c.MP
LP Stinger
MP Stinger
HP Stinger
Buer Reaper
Pinion Dash?

Valentine:
c.MK
Mortuary Drop
Grab
HK Bypass
???

Double:
LK Hornet Bomber
MK/HK Hornet Bomber
Cilia Slide

Big Band:
HP Brass Knuckle
Beat Extend
HK Giant Step
LK A-Train
MK/HK A-Train
What about Squigly?
 
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