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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

Mayor of Earth

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Unknown Painwheel Double
Small changes for Pw that would make her disgusting
1. Slightly increase buer and give h buer upper body invuln
2. The weird crossup buer missinput out of crossup j.hk
3.Maybe that unfly frame reduction but I think that was proven to be to op
4. While rising unblockable H-Buer??? Maybe too strong but would be fun with the change below

and if you want to make her S teir, A Grounded cmd grab that can be done out of charged normals :D
At the very least these changes would put her firmly in S tier
 
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CaioLugon

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Ms. Fortune Unknown Cerebella
Maybe that unfly frame reduction but I think that was proven to be to op
It's already 1f and reduces blockstun, what do you mean frame reduction?
While rising unblockable H-Buer??? Maybe too strong but would be fun with the change below
It's already unblockable on rising opponents
 

Mayor of Earth

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It's already 1f and reduces blockstun, what do you mean frame reduction?

It's already unblockable on rising opponents
oh fuck Time to bait people with Charge normals more now lol, I could of sworn something was getting tested with fly previously that was said to be to good, Unfly is fine rn
 

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Thats literally the universal counterplay but people are too afraid to contest or miss the head cand get nommed for it
Say it louder for the people in the back
 
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Ikkisoad

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Valentine Painwheel Cerebella
I just wanna put out there that if you want a buff, please give a justification or reason to it. Posting here with random buff ideas will just sound like you want your character buffed and that's it. Ofc you should do that for nerfs as well.
Devs read this thread and just asking for stuff without any feedback is just wasting their time.
 
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Nezo

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Beowulf
Had something Beo related that I wanted to suggest/get your opinions on:

The knees in his stance state during both Airwulf and Wulfamania are completely useless. They give you less damage, less combo potential, and are, honestly, less cool than the two-hit headbutts. I had a couple of ideas in ways to give them some sort of purpose:

:F: Have the knees give you meter. Since the knees and headbutts already switch in terms of what you want to use to get the most damage out of the stance, why not switch the properties of both this way as well? My idea here was to decrease the damage of knees from 500 -> 275 (half of what headbutts do), and, in exchange, give you twice the amount of meter that headbutts do in a non-super stance. This would retain the question of "knees vs headbutts" that you usually come across when in this stance in non-super scenarios (being damage or meter), only differing by being amplified and backwards.

or

:F:
Have alternating from h-k-h-k-h or k-h-k-h-k give you the most possible damage from either. Personally, I always thought switching from each this way in general was always the coolest you could make using them look. So, why not have the coolest way to do something also give you the most damage? This wouldn't really solve the problem for Airwulf's knee redundancy, but even just for Wulfamania I think would be nice. Definitely better than useless. Maybe even make the super do more damage this way. From 2750 with all headbutts how it is now to a clean 3000 doing it this way.

It's just always been weird to me that it's been a useless move for the longest time now. But, now that we're getting patches and able to give feedback and suggestions for said patches, I think now is a greater time more than ever to give it some use. Thoughts?
 
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Ms. Fortune Unknown Cerebella
Since no one is asking for it can we please give Painwheel a faster 5lk (6 or 7 frames opposed to the current 11 frame startup) so that her fastest punish isn't her grab
I feel like 6 or 7 might be a bit much, but it would be nice if it was a bit faster like double's (8f), even though I'm not sure if she really needs it. But, adding on that, I would like for her 8f jab to not be chargeable so you don't have to worry about it coming out slower. 5lp could be the slower 12f jab with 3f armor and 2lp could be the faster 8f one with slightly higher damage and no armor (or vice versa), one for defensive utility and one for combo consistency. I always found it super awkward that 5lp is the fast one but you can still drop links because you held the button for too long.
 
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Stuff

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If Painwheel were to get a 7f normal I'd prefer it be a button without armor I'd even shrink 5LK if I have to, I personally like having armor on my pitifully tiny buttons, I'd be very sad if my omega stubby 5LP or 2LP had lost its positives.

5LK is already combo fodder, if it was just faster like 7f as an alternative to throw punishing and as a bonus it might even be more useful for snap pick ups 'cause Painwheel either has too slow buttons or pitiful hitboxes in some unfortunate distances. Also if it was 7f it might even be an interesting poke given its size I think that's pretty cool. Plus most of if not all characters have at minimum a 6f start up light button so I wouldn't think it would be an unfair change either. (Parasoul has at minimum 8f and is the only character like this but considering those buttons are huge, that makes sense.)

If it makes Painwheel too plus on flight cancel the frame data can always be tweaked so that it's the same. (though I'd at least like to see what happens if it's just faster lol)

I'm totally open to the idea as I don't think it'd be a very egregious change though for me personally not the first thing on my mind.
 

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Beowulf Painwheel Big Band
While I understand the concern that 6-7 frames might be a bit much, I would like to respectfully disagree. PWs 5lk is a rather stubby normal that hits mid, while also not being an antiair, multihit, or having the ability to chain into itself. I don't believe this would overpowered especially when compared to the other moves in the 5-7 frame range. I believe that painwheel is in need of a faster punish and I believe 5lk would be the best choice because of the aforementioned properties, while I would like to see many of painwheel's lighter buttons buffed 5lk currently serves little purpose other than doing slightly more dmg than 2lk so it seems like an excellent place to start
 

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Beowulf Painwheel Big Band
While on the topic of Painwheel I believe that she should be a topic more discussed. She is perhaps the hardest character in the game to play well, while also being one of the weakest characters in the game and being devoid of many of the QOL features we have come to except from the rest of the cast. I don't believe that giving her a faster punish should be met with a kneejerk nerf to compensate, if we truly believe that we should buff low tiers rather than buffing top tiers Painwheel should be allowed the privileges the rest of the characters have without receiving a nerf to compensate. In terms of QOL issues I would like to start by suggesting some hitboxes that could be improved most notable those of buer, death crawl, and thresher during hitstop. Improving these hitboxes and giving her a punish would be some much appreciated changes while not significantly improving her damage output in hatred install, which is her main use in teambuilding and something she already excels at.
 

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FWIW I don't think she's one of the weakest characters in the game, if she actually worked most of the time like every other character she'd be pretty up there which is the qol I wish she'd get, often times when you do land hits you can be wrong for being right and that overall sucks more than anything. I do agree that Deathcrawl is too small and doesn't beat anything even slightly above her, I do often wish I could at least counter super an aerial gregor but idk it's mainly just that which bothers me. I don't think Thresher has a bad hitbox, it's pretty good the only time it's p small is when it's the 1st active frame, afterwards it's fairly big for the rest of it which isn't too bad fwiw. The buer hitbox stuff I'm still very curious as to what the problem if it's just max range stuff, I totally get it, it sucks and I wish max range stuff just worked.

(I think most of her issues are with stuff like limited flight cancels in neutral, unfly limitations [momentum from flight] and her flight speed in some places but it's probably just me.)

and idk I really dislike pw just being a "hatred install" character, she's got a lot more interesting things but the second slot is the optimal, I wish it wasn't that way.
 

iControl

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Would like it if double could convert off her lvl 5 explosion. Lvl 5 doesn't feel to great.
 
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DankleKankle

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Would like it if double could convert off her lvl 5 explosion. Lvl 5 doesn't feel to great.
Double turns into a big Moai statue, I see no problem lol
Also, you can chain off of the explosion in the corner.
 
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Mayor of Earth

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If you increase the amount of times pw can unfly and refly the characters neutral will end up just being lamer, Don't get me wrong its already pretty lame but Id see her played more like robo, I don't really think she needs that, Honestly its just the buer extension and maybe H buer upper body invuln for an anti air and she be 100% fine imo, Even buffing thresher seems a bit much to me.
I do kinda like the 5lk change, and if it does get that change id say just scrap armor from that normal altogether tbh. I honestly don't think she needs crazy buffs to her gameplan.
Any of my off the wall suggestions would only make her around S tier, Couple slots below Fortune Peacock. She's honestly pretty good and her neutral really isnt lacking. If you want to break her give her an air cmd grab like haggar.
 

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Valentine Painwheel Cerebella
I do kinda like the 5lk change, and if it does get that change id say just scrap armor from that normal altogether tbh.
5LK doesn't have armor.
Although I think PW is fine, would be interesting to have 5LK a little faster (maybe not 7f or lower), because 2LK is there and is 11f as well, no reason to go for 5LK anywhere besides getting more damage on combos.
 

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Having more than 2 flights per jump would actually help out a lot in the Robo match up, it wouldn't make her lamer, it would help her actually approach against some characters imo. Because unflying stuff is cool but then you have one fly left and if you use it and unfly but then you have no more movement options and you're just kinda there. You can fly on the ground to have 3 flights instead of two but it's easy to run into the same problem and then you're a sitting duck until you land and refresh your flights. I wouldn't say it's required but it'd help her a lot in some cases. If anything this change would let Painwheel get in a lot more easily as most "lame" tools tend to work better for rushdown anyway :c but painwheel could still back off more often I guess but that's the beauty of pw she can do both

Another scenario would be that you spent both flights to approach you get a hit but your conversion options are now limited due to having 0 flights left and that equally sucks that her movement option is also her """""stance cancel""""" and in wanting to move at all you spend up your combo resource. It's a scenario you're hopefully never in but it is highly possible against the zoners.

and fwiw I think on paper PW is an S tier character provided she just worked (In practice she just DOESN'T and you die for reasons out of your control), she's very good at countering (maybe counter is a strong word but she for sure has the tools to fight them) the top tiers the only thing she truly needs is some level of consistency and maybe slight frame data changes due to some wacky max range stuff.

It'd also be cool if 2MK > 5HP actually was a valid blockstring. (If I really want to frame trap I can just delay the button or go for armor)

Honestly though I'd be happy with anything at this point.

Also, really out there buff but can jHK be a move that doesn't fast fall? like it stays in the air for as long as it exists like some other moves do? it'd probably help pw. And it might actually make jHK a useful button and it would give painwheel slightly better odds at some air conversions... maybe.

EDIT: Bottom line, I don't think much of the buffs proposed are egregious I'd honestly call all of them fair in the grand scheme I think Painwheel needs something so I'll take anything. But my overall preference would be that she's more stable first but if stability is out of the question because of game limitations then again, I'd be happy with anything at this point.
 
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Mayor of Earth

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Giving Pw an additional Flight cancel off any buer or thresher would stop her dropping conversions if she's already hit max refly's in neutral, I think that would be a solid QOL change tbh, Also didnt know 5lk didnt have armor I guess I hardly charge lights and assumed, Yeah it can be sped up a tad safely imo and it woudnt really make her any crazier just more consistent
 

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Beowulf Painwheel Big Band
I don't think Thresher has a bad hitbox, it's pretty good the only time it's p small is when it's the 1st active frame, afterwards it's fairly big for the rest of it which isn't too bad fwiw
My issue with thresher is precicely its bad hitbox before hitstop. Its range is tiny and it allows some characters to just DP or reaction super her when they see the hitstop start, not even as a read (Here are some examples in training mode ) I feel this is unnecessary as thresher already scales down combos and eats OTG. I'm currently of the opinion that PW needs a lot of help and fixing things like this are small QOL changes that will make her feel a bit more natural to play without changing the core essence of the character

PWThresherHitbox.jpg
 
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I'd prefer the finite number just be dropped as I can't think of an immediate reason it should exist specifically in neutral, I understand the limitation on combos but in neutral I think it's fair simply because you actively exhaust your combo options just to try to get around and avoid things or unfly to block something then fly to approach and then get to do not much unless you're near enough the corner to get a combo from A2A situations.

Painwheel's mobility without flight isn't terrible mind you but it's her main mode of transportation and having that be limited kind of stinks.

I don't want to derail this to just flight though I think Painwheel as a whole deserves a look and discussion.

Also regarding Thresher, this would happen regardless, here's feral edge losing to annie dp:
That said, thinking back on it, sometimes that tiny hitbox makes combos drop when they matter most so I'd still prefer it to not exist and just use the extended hitbox, you won me over lol c:

Honestly I don't understand why it couldn't have both the tiny hitbox and the extended one all in one package, that'd be swell.
 
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Thanks a lot to the devs and everyone at Future Club for all the hard work, skullgirls my favorite fighting game ever. Here are some of my thoughts on specific aspects of its current state.

tl;dr:i think current top tier characters could stand to receive 2-3 adjustments each to tools that the majority of the playerbase seem to find egregious. Further down the line in the games development cycle when creating and playtesting new DLC is less of a priority, i would like to see more characters receive buffs to their assist selection to make them competitive with current top tier assists like beam and brass, along with general QoL adjustments to their kit and minor buffs to make them as strong in their niches are current high/top tiers are in theirs, and resolve glaring issues with certain moves and matchups.


umbrella:
I don't play her, but from what I understand about her from playing quite a few games vs nope and a few other umbrella players, I share most of his thoughts on the character at this point regarding her anti-zoning kit. While i'm hesitant to add more combo-breaker mechanics to the game like old bubbles, I think things like f1 projectile invuln on 5HP would be reasonable for her.

I think she's overly incentivized to stay in ravenous at all times because of the comical strength of a few of her tools in the mode. I'd like to see some of this strength spread out to Overstuffed and Satiated so her gameplan doesnt just become get to ravenous and force an approach+turn with slide+assist or slide+bubble.

Regarding some of her tools, the only things I think are truly obnoxious are 5HK and 2MK. 5HK is practically unpunishable in the vast, vast majority of situations even on complete whiff. You could double the amount of punishable frames before the tech and it might not be enough, but it definitely needs more. 2MK having frame 1 throw invuln is nuts, it's airborne f4 and for the entire duration afterwards anyway; i'd rather just see flash kick get full invuln back (at least in one of the modes) and 2MK lose the f1-3 throw crush.


annie:
Annie needs to lose several hundred damage on H Destruction Pillar, bringing it damage more in line with other DP assists.
I also think annie would benefit overall from a sizable increase in the duration of her assist taunt and the removal of several nerfs to specific assists such as 6HP and H north knuckle.

While I get that this is unrealistic, I honestly believe Annie's install should be removed from the game until it can be reworked, because it is a mess right now. Imo it feels as though it was meant to be a major part of her kit that alters not just her super selection but special moves as well (like mobile) and instead the stars became the central mechanic. It has gone through multiple severe nerfs and is still balanced only by the fact its now impractically expensive to use for most teams (It's difficult to think of a worse way to spend meter in SG than on Photo Bop), and so most annie players do not learn optimal or even good install stuff. I think its current incarnation is significantly less interesting and thoughtful than both det mode and hatred install for both the annie player and the opponent, and so i'd like to see it reworked completely, possibly into something more similar to the mobile version.
However, this is an impossibly tall order for the devs and I have resigned myself to this fate.


fortune:
I have nothing to add to the discussion about the head breaking combos, her meter gain being toned down, or the nerfs that were reverted that hasn't already been said.
I will say that things like raw zoom>nom should advance fortune to stage 3.


robo:
I think robo is in a nearly perfect state right now, and the only problematic part of her kit is H Theonite Beam assist. I think it absolutely needs the screen positioning nerf that it briefly had restored regardless of how odd it might have looked to some people; Being able to call the strongest assist in the game and have it come from offscreen is absurd.
Beyond this, I think a 5-8f reduction to it active frames (to bring it more in line with actual doom beam) or similar mild reduction to hitstun would be healthy. I would definitely leave the air version unchanged so as to (hopefully) not break existing combos.


peacock:
I agree with the idea of georges dissapearing or becoming inert if she is hit by a non-projectile strike (or maybe just supers, i can compromise) because I think the way it works currently it breaks the game's normal risk/reward rules pretty severely.
This would be a pretty harsh nerf for her, but I doubt it would take her out of the top 3 for point characters in the game. Beyond that, stuff like M Bang being -25 on block and -50 on whiff and lenny doing significantly less damage+having some kind of visible timer would be extremely welcome.



cerebella:
I think cerebella is fine right now; I think jHP overhead returning would also be fine. The IOH is strong but not unusually so in the context of SG.
It was initially removed along with other severe nerfs to her overheads because it theoretically occupied a similar place in her mixup game as MGR while being massive and plus on block. The nerf was an effort to force her to grapple more.
I am confused by this now that umbrella, a grappler/setplayer, has the exact same type of massive button that instant overheads the entire cast and is plus on block, occupying a similar place in her mixup game as her command grab.

If bella were to be adjusted, which as I understand is off the table for a very long while if not permanently, I would like to see her entire overhead system return to pre-Annie function, or the overhead property restored to glide>clap. I'd also like to see certain specials with low utility or reward adjusted, things like-
-flick stage 2 starter, longer stagger on diamond
-M LnL now 0 on block, L LnL now +2 on block
-glide now availible before or after double jump
 

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Beowulf Painwheel Big Band
While I understand the comparison to feral edge I would personally disagree with the comparison. Thresher is a single target move that eats otg as well as being her "good reversal super" , for those reasons I think thresher should have a better hitbox than it currently has. Feral Edge can save OTG while headless with sneeze or headbutt (Could be wrong on this I don't play fortune) and can hit multiple characters leading to greater rewards and potentially a happy birthday situation, fortune also has access to 5th of dismember in the air as well so she has options rather than just the one. I would like to point out that one of my biggest issues with PW are her hitboxes not matching the move at all (compared to feral edge where it matches the move fairly accurately), which is a big reason I would like to see the hitboxes improved. Hitboxes for both supers are below as well as deathcrawl because its funny
PWThresherHitbox.jpg
225px-SG_msf_jqcbkk_hb.png
225px-SG_pwl_qcfpp_hb.png
 

Triviality

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annie:
While I get that this is unrealistic, I honestly believe Annie's install should be removed from the game until it can be reworked, because it is a mess right now.
i dont like annie install, not saying its broken/good/bad I just dont like how many rules and the meter drain and dark phoenix. I wish I could be articulate about it. Surprised it took us all this time before someone said this

1655019599100.png
 

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umbrella:
The only thing i want to add here is how giving her old bubbles back, at least on point, would not be that egregious. Comparing something like L George, which comes out quickly and only disappears when it gets offscreen/is destroyed to something like Wish Maker, which takes forever to send out, leaving Umbrella freely open to punish, is easily avoidable with an upforward, even if Ptooie is onscreen, and is on a short timer due to an extremely low duration (please restore it).

I just want the insurance and distance back, but let people interact with it. The changes never got rid of Band Wish Maker nonsense and its noninteraction, it just made it slightly harder to perform. That patch where you could allow your assist to tank the hit/destroy it was a lot healthier than "just hope you hit umbrella before she leaves."

Also make 6LP take 7-8 frame startup, its so slow and just gets clipped by assists that Pea 2LK and Annie 2LP don't. I can hardly contest an IAD with beam assist without being at constant risk of being clipped either during startup by a normal or afterwards by the assist.

annie:
Can something about H DP Assist also be changed to not check so many boxes? It does a bunch of blockstun, a bunch of damage, she's hard to punish, and it gives characters with decent dash speeds some of the easiest happy birthdays.
fortune:
nom dealing blue bounce would also be a nice thing to have, if not the stage 3 change.
peacock:
I wish we could have universalizable projectile rules like (all projectiles go away on hit if character is hit by super/strike) or something like that. Letting Peacock keep her bombs yet Para not keep her tears seems cruel.
cerebella:
Agreed. Giving Umbrella a bunch of privileges while mimicking a bunch of Bella's kit seems stupid. Like giving Umbrella rav jMP, which can convert from comically long distances away, overhead, but not Bella jHP just doesn't make sense to me.
 

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Why are we comparing ravenous j.mp to Bella j.hp???

Ravenous j.mp requires you to properly manage hunger to gain access to it in the first place and you can only use it so much before you have to do something else to get hunger back to stay in ravenous. While also having pretty lackluster mix outside of it.

Bella has access to the same j.hp at all times in her kit along with having a faster command grab that she doesn’t need to spend meter to convert after while also having a instant overhead. It makes sense that umbrella’s gets to be overhead and Bella’s doesn’t.

You can’t compare moves in vacuum, the context the rest of the kit gives 100% matters. Para tears shouldn’t stay on hit just because peacock’s does (even though I think pea’s should go away at least on non projectile hits). Para’s pressure and neutral abilities would skyrocket and seriously change how most of the cast would interact with her in neutral and pressure for no real reason.

Every game has a situations where character A has a better version of a tool character B has and it’s usually fine because character B usually has a better version of a tool character A has. It’s what makes characters fun and different.
 

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Thinking on it more it does kind of stink that PW's air super has hitstop so it's supposed to be used for reversal purposes but the hitbox is so small that it basically is a super with no hitstop in most cases. The idea was probably to limit it a bit because it's an air super with hitstop but I think other air supers with hitstop are still bigger than thresher's 1st hitbox which is the one where the hitstop matters. It's still not the first thing on my mind but it's an interesting discrepancy and I understand your point more.
 
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iControl

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Is there any way to add a feature to the option to remove the win count score? It would be nice to not worry about the score while playing long sets
 

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Fortune's Nom does need toning down, it's a really strong tool to have during neutral, and to cover herself in a lot of scenarios.

Leave Bella jHP alone, that button is still ridiculous.
 
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Sinclair

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I would really like it if TK horus was made to be less....ultra precise or smth. very annoying how it feels like a casino online at times. And Eliza really needs to do TK horus routes for good damage (did u know she can even do it midscreen!!!!!!!!!). So the ultra precision of it for her bare minimum damage feels just like another forgotten flaw of this character.
Nothing wrong with making TK horus way easier to execute, or just turning it into a chain move where horus is always guaranteed to come down when you input it after H khat without the awkward input. thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

BellaFeng4Eternity

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I would be OK if some of the point-oriented characters would receive some assist diversity.

Also, I would like it if Eliza would drain less health as Sekhmet and lose the assist lockout as Sekhmet as well.
 

iControl

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I would really like it if TK horus was made to be less....ultra precise or smth. very annoying how it feels like a casino online at times. And Eliza really needs to do TK horus routes for good damage (did u know she can even do it midscreen!!!!!!!!!). So the ultra precision of it for her bare minimum damage feels just like another forgotten flaw of this character.
Nothing wrong with making TK horus way easier to execute, or just turning it into a chain move where horus is always guaranteed to come down when you input it after H khat without the awkward input. thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I disagree I don't play Eliza and I can do tk Horus consistently. Good routes should require good execution.
 

Triviality

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To this day, I still don't understand why Double L Luger was nerfed. It feels like an unnecessary nerf when the problematic aspect of her toolkit (Catheads dhc duration) was toned down.
If you get hit by L-Luger, it is literally your own fault
 

BellaFeng4Eternity

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Speaking of Bella, can we please let her assists convert off of Dynamo or Diamond Drop?

Also, for Annie, I would like to see Re-Entry have a ground bounce as well.

Those are the two changes I can think of for now.
 
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