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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

PME

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Also, can we do something about Cerebella's anchor point being so far below her hurtbox? At least during combos? Why does it need to be at the tip of her knives instead of her foot and the tip of her hons instead of her head?
This. For the love of god, this


I would post the comparison images with other characters' anchor point, but I'm not near my computer atm since I'm at work
 

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Re: Fortune changes, since there seems to be a lot of discourse/confusion regarding "why change these tools specifically" given some of the changes are targeting stuff that isn't complained about as much as other tools.

At a very (very) basic level, I think there are 2 general ways you can go about bringing down a character's strength; you either weaken their strong tools to bring them more in line with the rest of the cast or you increase their weaknesses as compensation for their strengths. While the Fortune changes so far do have a couple changes which fit the former (jLK, air hurtbox), I think overall they fit within the latter. Imo this is a more fun and interesting way of toning Fortune down than just directly nerfing all the strong tools that people complain about since it means that she can still do all or at least most of the cool stuff that's fun about her, it's just she will explode more if she gets hit/pressure.

So I think we can interpret the Fortune changes so far as toning down her strengths that are seen as overly egregious (like her small air hurtbox making her hard to hit and her jLK pressure) while giving her bigger weaknesses on defence to compensate for her still really strong offence and neutral. So while I doubt anyone was complaining about headless H Fiber's throw invuln before (or suggesting that head-on Fiber becomes only strike invuln), I think we can view these changes through the lens of giving Fortune appropriate weaknesses to compensate for her strengths.

Obviously I'm not Liam/HV and this is just how I am viewing the Fortune changes but I think they make sense when viewed in this way and I prefer this approach to just giving really big nerfs to all of Fortune's strong, fun tools.
 
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Stuff

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Painwheel Robo Fortune Ms. Fortune
I appreciate your explanation but I don't think I can really agree on this one I can understand the intent of toning down a character and I get that it opens up throwing more as an option against the character therefore giving it a downside (though personally I thought being minus on block was downside enough) but I think because specific counterplay already exists i.e air resets which is more or less the entirety of the game which to me makes it much too negligible to even matter so I'm not really for it. At least for me, if solution already exists and is a feasible option i.e. block the fiber or air reset fortune then it's very hard for me to be okay with something. I feel like they're tools that can be counterpicked or have counterplay to them but are overall unused (most people don't even run a DP anymore though maybe that's changing with Fortune's new prevalence) and at least in CEO 2021 using a DP assist against two fortune's in top 8 put in a lot of work and this is retail where she keeps her strengths.

Again, I appreciate the explanation and I understand where you're coming from but I think I just have to agree to disagree. If it stays I think Fortune will probably be fine but I don't agree with the philosophy behind it.
 
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This. For the love of god, this


I would post the comparison images with other characters' anchor point, but I'm not near my computer atm since I'm at work
This was discussed in the Skullgirls Discord beta discussion back in March, and unfortunately there was no plan to change Bella. It's just a character quirk. (pain)
 

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"First they came for the Peacock mains, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Peacock main"


"Then they came for the Annie mains, and I did not speak out-

Because I was not a Annie main"


"Then they came for the Miss Fortune mains, and I did not speak out-

Because I was not a Miss Fortune main"



"Then they came for my main - And there was no one left to speak for me"
soon as character defining traits & tools are stripped, game balance-wise is downhill from there. eventually no one will be able to have anything remotely strong in the sense of making people truly think about how to not autopilot. Which is the entire point — something you play around. reasonable counter play already exists for these scenarios.

in the history of fg’s as a general rule of thumb giving everyone dope things has been more positive than anything else. Dbfz big boi patch solved a lot & brought people back (Zamasu, nappa, goku black, etc), Sg ’cristmas’ patch from forever ago made people ease up on band & peacock when everyone got new stuff, people loving the gratuitous craziness in dnf duel wanting more, MK11 finally allowing custom variations online, enduring love for diversity on everyone in blazblue/gg characters, recent biggish strive patch…list goes on & on & on. anyone with longstanding grievances almost always forget about them in lieu of having new toys to play with & new solutions to older puzzles. I don’t get why this is such a sticking point…I really don’t. We’ve been through this before multiple times, multiple games. its not rocket science.

nerfing characters past a certain point rarely results in a net positive. Nerf one…people will just focus on another characters annoyance to funnel frustration. or straight up stop playing certain characters if grieved enough. That stilts matchups even more. like before, I get cat heads & annies lvl2, stuff like that — but the trend should be pretty clear by now. when everyone gets cool things there’s very little room for unhappy players as whole.

My own words, but personally I don’t wanna win more because I took away reasonable tools from someone else. I know some probably don’t see it like that but I do. much rather move on to talks about potential new system or even character mechanics…things to further the game & level of play, not hinder it. I just wanna get back to being excited about the game in a new way. it’s what fgs have always been about. no need to overthink it.

edit: melty just dropped a new update…and followed the same philosophy as well. Inserted some comments from update reactions/comments. this is the type of excitement that happens from unexpected hype
 

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softie

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what are the chances that this late in the games life we can finally get the awkward assist macro combinations to be adjusted

stuff has an image from a long ass time ago i think

It would just be really really nice to do HK specials with a1 input and LP specials with A2 input

in most instances you can just plink but some times you can't ( a lot of pw hbuer+assist stuff has strict timings) and stuff like htrain SKD, max range ebrake (HK~hp) + assist 1 is just so awkward
 

FuLLBLeeD

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what are the chances that this late in the games life we can finally get the awkward assist macro combinations to be adjusted

stuff has an image from a long ass time ago i think

It would just be really really nice to do HK specials with a1 input and LP specials with A2 input

in most instances you can just plink but some times you can't ( a lot of pw hbuer+assist stuff has strict timings) and stuff like htrain SKD, max range ebrake (HK~hp) + assist 1 is just so awkward

Yes please, this has been something I've wanted to try since day 1.
 
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This was discussed in the Skullgirls Discord beta discussion back in March, and unfortunately there was no plan to change Bella. It's just a character quirk. (pain)
For future reference to others who'd want something visual to refer to, these are where some of the anchor points are for some of the characters when they are in a "falling headfirst" hitstun state.

Some combos don't work on Bella and Double because they hit the ground earlier than other characters and can therefore ground tech sooner (it's fine and makes sense for Double since she's tall and heavy, but Bella?)
 

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Sy Noon

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Headless Fortune's weakness is lack of a reliable reversal (without proper head position, you basically don't have a reversal while headless). She has two amazing reversals in terms of sneeze and nom, and doesn't need another reversal on top of it.
even with proper head positioning, you can't use nom or sneeze on your own wake up, as it shifts its cooldown only till you get back up. so she only gets CSF and feral (if the opponent doesn't counter super, or even sometimes a normal will just beat it). There's also level 3 if you really wanna spend a lot of bar. so her main reversals are very easily baited and come down to which metered super she will use. There is not much else that I'm aware of she can use to keep her opponent on their toes. for real if I'm missing something here, tell me.
 

dekillsage

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For a game that hasn't had any changes for 5 years I'm surprised at the amount of the "yeah she's fine" and "yeah that's fair" from the players. This is Skullgirls my dudes. This game is not fair, these characters are not fine, and you shouldn't want them to be. It's pretty disappointing to hear so many players say "I can't wait for Annie to get nerfed" in person. It feels like the community old and new have been spoiled by the fact things can change. I'm no exception to this, but come on.

Peacock: She's still good, but I'm not fond of the extra changes she got for the current beta. I think the changes she got last patch were enough and only really changed how much Peacock could get away with doing the punch move. The reward on some stuff was a little less, but overall Peacock players could run the game plan they've developed these past 5 years. Now we're going back 7 years, that's just weird to me.

Robo: H Beam just looks weird now. I always felt the beam assist should be OP and it happening off screen complimented that idea. If it was on another character then sure but... its Robo man!

Annie: Her changes are very boring. Another example of a character still being good after being toned down, but she doesn't even feel like herself anymore.

H Knuckle Assist: This assist nerf feels horrible. This is like almost as bad as when excellabella got toned down (rightfully so, but they went too ham). If an assist is too strong then its okay to tone it down, but if you do it this much then you make players not want to pick it. As a result players will feel like they need to change teams or a strategy they worked hard on and that is not fun. I would recommend adding more time before Annie leaves the screen. This would make it more like Brass where on offense its OD, but for neutral situations you have to go out of your way to protect it or its getting locked out. Let it do its thing!

j.MP: Been said a hundred times, it just feels awful. It sucks seeing the resets Sonic developed go. Sucks watching the combo Shade developed and did for months disappear. Every Annie on my stream is in shambles every game. The combos that still do work feel wonky too. If the goal was to lower her damage and combo potential then this change did its job, but I don't think we needed this!

Point pillar: This super costs 2 bars, but its a meme right now. Hoping to see it changed back!

6HP & 5MP: The changes made it so things like spaced 6HP dash 5HP -> dive kick doesn't work. This is like the Lugar change where it still works point blank, but that's it. This was sick and I'm sad to see it go. I love crazy stuff like this man.

Knuckle & Dive Kick: These moves losing so much of their impact really takes away from her character. These moves had so much power to them. I'd like to see it back.

Before she felt so smooth to play and everything clicked together so well. Strong hits made her feel powerful and the hits had impact. The other changes don't bother me as much, but these are ugly!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Umbrella:

This character is incredible.

M Bubble: The recent changes to this move really make her feel complete. Neutral is interesting and creative thanks to it popping towards the opponent. A bubble is out and someone jumps over you? Slide into the bubble and get a cross under hit from the pop. Killed a character in the corner? Set up M bubble and get a free left/right incoming mix up. Playing footsies? Make your big button even BIGGER. I love this.

H Bubble: I think most players want this move to interact with projectiles, but I'm unsure if I would want that. I think its fine as is for now, but if it were to change then maybe it going away if Umbrella gets hit makes more sense. This is the other move that made her toolkit feel complete and really opened up her ability to set up or get into ravenous.

Ravenous: This mode is OD. Getting an instant overhead completely changes this character. You can also get into Ravenous after landing a single hit pretty easily. This makes her very scary since her low hunger damage is kind of absurd right now.

H Bubble -> M Bubble sets up Rising j.MP J.MK -> 5MK 6HP -> command grab which = goodbye

Slide while in this mode is also crazy oppressive! You're +4 even if you get push blocked and you're still in 5MP range. Bro, I love the vision.

Salt Grinder: If you get hit into this and then reset back into this you can die for 1 bar. Makes me feel like every character I play is Beowulf. I personally love this, but if it does get changed please don't let it be scaling like excellabella. I don't know if my heart can take it.


Reflector: Right now I think the only OP thing about her is this level 1 super. This super is nuts and doesn't go away when she gets hit either which is incredible.
Godlike vs Projectiles too... I just learned Robo beam can't go through it. If it goes away when she gets hit it'd still be OP and I like that.

Under The Weather: I lied this super might also be OP. This super reminds me of monsters ability to control space, while also giving way more characters safe tags and dhcs. Being able to use it to drop your opponents undizzy bar safely is an option that isn't too common in this game. You can also use it to lower your hunger too, so you can choose to spend less undizzy to get into ravenous and then wait for the super to drop the opponents undizzy and then 50/50 them.

If she ends up getting changes from here, I hope she still hits hard and she keeps the creative freedom from her current tool kit. If she were to end up released as she is right now she would make a big splash in the meta the same way Annie did and that'd be really nice to see again.


My writing is horrible, but if you read this thanks. Take it easy fellas.
 

Stuff

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I wanted to add that I thought meter steal was a very cool concept that opened up a new strat in denying somebody the ability to safe DHC which is a very strong option, I thought this was very cool (I kind of felt like it solved one of my issues with the game without outright removing anything). Obv because pillar of creation had other strengths (strengths I'd happily give up because I thought it was much more interesting than more of the usual [big damage and ez conversion]), it had to be removed but I'm really hoping that some day for some character this very awesome concept can be seen again.

I really loved subtracting 1-.5 bars from my opponent's 2 so that they can't rely on their bnb of: "super xx super > my turn now". IDK I just thought it was an interesting counter tool. Removing their super option if it was 1 bar was also very satisfying, I loved it so so much, it was a different way to force the opponent to block.

I thought it was really really cool....
ᵍᵒᵈ ʷʰᵃᵗ ᵃ ᶜᵒᵒˡ ᶜᵒⁿᶜᵉᵖᵗ
 
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Chrono_Tata

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Yeah I also think meter steal is a cool concept, but it just seemed out of place on a character like Annie and on the particular move which doesn't seem to have anything to do with draining the opponent. Would be neat to see it on another character where it fits the character/move theme more.
 

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Gonna have to hard disagree about reverting Annie to her fullpower

With other fighting games, they tend to have larger character rosters, so the disparity between their strengths is more prevalent. With Skullgirls, balancing the cast is a bit more manageable (gonna be harder going forward with more characters).

Annie was so powerful that the majority of the playerbase was picking her up, including me, either on main teams or pocketing her. Why? Because it made no sense not to considering her vast array of strengths to the point of being at a disadvantage for not playing her.

It's to the point where many top players will give advice to newer players picking up the game/learning new teams saying "Just pick Annie"

It reminds me so much of week 1 Fukua where everyone was using her and saying "Just pick Fukua," and I don't want to go back to that. The thought is making me recoil.

At the very least, Annie lv2 should not be reverted. Pre-nerf, it was better than many lv3 supers in the game, and that doesn't make any sense to me.
 

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I dont think anyone wants her to be fully reverted back as some of her strengths like pillar were overbearing. But there are certain things that I personally feel shouldnt have been toned down the way that they were when they werent the issues with Annie (dash speed, J.MP, and assists). I’m not alone on this opinion either.

I’m all for new meta characters, and personally the Robo Annie Meta that I helped shape was one of my favorite teams to play in the history of this game. The fact that the nerfs received to Annie took away all the creativity and strategy I worked with on that team this past year kinda sucks a lot, and those assist changes aren’t the only teams poorly effected by her now.

I don’t want to be purposely dissuaded to play an assist. She has now two cases where it just seems like the devs straight up went “ya don’t use this” which is now H knuckle and Install DHC and I feel that goes against a lot of the creativity and what “could be” that SG has always cherished as it’s strong points for years.

I don’t want my hard work to feel like it was all for nothing ultimately which is why I believe there are more elegant ways of toning down other issues of Annie, damage and Pillar primarily being her issues.
 

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(Re-edited)
i just hope we don’t let Annie install waste away. I know last round was messy but seems like a core mechanic dictating a major way she plays was ignored.

Also PME, I’d assert that people picked her up in the beginning not solely because of damage (tho dhc was part of it), but because she was actually interesting in terms of newfound flexibility for a core mechanic unlike anything we’ve seen before in sg. Was kinda half-baked, but It fr felt like a new frontier w/Sol jr. at first I didn’t care, but totally won me over with flavour & attitude. to be clear tho, definitely dont want that reversion back.

Tone base damage down if needed, but let install be as cool as It is from sgmobile. not saying keep same method of resource-gain since 40secs to fill is too long, but I invite anyone to take a look who hasn’t seen it already/in a while. RC mechanic ties it together well & i like the freedom yet limited amount of strings you can do.

starts @2:30 for quick 3min breakdown


been thinking about these details since release, just letting readers know it wasn’t created on the spot. couple people‘ve seen the google doc already, anyways hopefully sparks some ideas

Stars & Specials:
stars only activate on whiff w/faster recovery for followups, but normals stop shooting stars after direct contact from Annie on hit or block. this way, they don’t mess up normal bnbs & catheads vibes are gone while giving her powered up specials in its place for bombos/creativity. it’s fairly evident the extended catheads lockdown effect (regardless of thoughts on PBGCs) is the biggest roadblock in the way of interactivity. Besides H-versions, stars would work the same as respective strength crescent cuts for distance/speed/damage. this way people actually have a reason to use for neutral as designed, over just j.hp as a more complete tool. I make this a point because rn there’s no reason using them as distance/stun/recovery is awkward & you’re left where you started (like eliza throne) unless using H stars. small note, you can still purposefully whiff & continue combos in all sorts of situations with this. Resets as well. Basically the theme is, you have a lot more help/pressure for getting in as a complete package, but over-oppression stops when you do. sauce-wise you’re rewarded with powered up specials in place of extra stars being gone since it is an install.

Resource or Meter:
i see making SP its own resource via holy order sol; naturally, no meter gain during use. if we stick to bar, making it like sekh where 1 meter drains normally with *no* exit penalty, then each concurrent meter drains noticeably faster than the last. most importantly, exiting pauses meter gain for a small bit, allowing for quick in & outs without effecting SP or cost. risk-wise put her permanent counter hit state &/or knockdowns force exit with loss of a bit of meter/resource (like ABA from GG+R). theres Many creative ways to give it a nice risk/reward so it’s not an eyerolling affair for the opponent, but moreso an opportunity for a blowup on their side. allow the punish, welcome it. but let install itself be a real power fantasy. something legitimately fun While being engaging for the defender in a good way.

Pillar of Creation:
significantly more scaled lvl3 or non-comboable ok-damage hard knockdown while completely refilling resource on hit. if meter‘s still a thing, next install’s free for 3bars & little payoff, but good oki w/hkd for install pressure & opponent still has a chance to get out. i like that as a compromise while tying into her identity (like umbrellas lvl 3 & hunger).

Final Note:
I hope no one single detail was anything to distract from the overall cohesion in mind. regardless of what we all think individually, Im optimistic we can all have something to be hype about for the future of Sg. And thanks for reading if you made it this far — bless up
 
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Gonna have to hard disagree about reverting Annie to her fullpower
People aren't asking for that
With other fighting games, they tend to have larger character rosters, so the disparity between their strengths is more prevalent. With Skullgirls, balancing the cast is a bit more manageable (gonna be harder going forward with more characters).
Some characters core kits are concepts are volatile to a certain degree. Beo will never not rely on assists that give him hype, same with valentine, it makes creative explorations with certain characters a dry well

As long as everyone has the core abilities to open people up Low-Overheads-Grabs-Mix-ups whatever, everyone will be strong within the right hands, that's what sets skullgirls apart. Everyone has the necessities to do damage woven into the themes and flavor of their character. I think what should be avoided is absolutely BRAINDEAD gameplay decisions. Annie pillar DHC is the most mind-numbingly braindead sequence I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing more times than I have fought eliza players in bracket
Annie was so powerful that the majority of the playerbase was picking her up, including me, either on main teams or pocketing her. Why? Because it made no sense not to considering her vast array of strengths to the point of being at a disadvantage for not playing her.
You are not at a disadvantage when NOT playing annie, even in her current retail iteration. She has a very clumsy sequence to her normals, her gameplay is ridiculously straight forward, and she was basically doing what Double does, except in the air to such an technical ease, you would be hard pressed NOT to recommend her to any stiff-fingered newcomer who joined Skullgirls in this revitalized era. This feels to me like how solo big bands can kill characters because one got mashed on by SSJ twice and thinks "Wow that's so braindead oh well he's big band"

Annie is more braindead than she is powerful, she IS powerful, but not to the degree of breaking the game, I'd argue she needs less damage rather than anything else
It's to the point where many top players will give advice to newer players picking up the game/learning new teams saying "Just pick Annie"
I attribute this to her incredible easiness to play, and pillar DHC and just overall hype around the character
At the very least, Annie lv2 should not be reverted. Pre-nerf, it was better than many lv3 supers in the game, and that doesn't make any sense to me.
YES
(Re-edited)
i just hope we don’t let Annie install waste away.
Annie Install needs a rework. She has too many well damage supers that are enough to kill characters at a meta-friendly optimal level. This dissuades use of the Install for damage, even when one carries knowledge of how to use it

The mixup options from install just seem like Redux versions of mixups she already HAS, and precedent with other characters such as Eliza show that Meter-Drain is not an enticing at all mechanic

The two supers you get FROM install are outclassed by her other regular supers, which you LOSE access to in install

And stars promote the big problem with annie which is how braindeadingly rewarding it is to airdash over someone fifty times throwing heavy hitstun stars while an assist can cover you AND You have a level 1, easy to mash, Burst super

TL:DR - Update targeted too much stuff with Annie, Poor direction for how she should be changed in my opinion

Annie install is wack

The game should be everyone doing everything with the assist of a gimmick, not a character being nothing BUT the gimmick (Beowulf)
 

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While I wouldn’t say that people are asking for Annie to go back to full power, people are definitely acting like she’s in a pretty bad spot rn and imo downplaying just how strong she was. Ceo had 6/8 teams have Annie in top 8 and I don’t even think launch Fukua was that bad and she was arguably easier than Annie. While her being braindead easy definitely contributed to her pick rate, I think her overall strength was the strongest factor.

I also think she’s still in the great spot and one of the stronger characters rn. I think all of her changes were pretty fair and the only ones I would really consider reverting are the j.mp and dash changes and not because they were too harsh, but to let Annie players have more fun cause those aren’t what broke her.

While we’re on the topic of fun I’m curious as to what the fun parts of Annie were to people. Not to be presumptuous but to me it feels like a lot of people’s “fun” with Annie came from her being so powerful and less about Annie herself being fun to play. I feel like if we can focus on what was fun about Annie (minus her just being strong), we can focus on lowering her power level to a more reasonable level while still keeping the aspects of her people found fun intact.
 
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Nuuance

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While I wouldn’t say that people are asking for Annie to go back to full power, people are definitely acting like she’s in a pretty bad spot rn and imo downplaying just how strong she was. Ceo had 6/8 teams have Annie in top 8 and I don’t even think launch Fukua was that bad and she was arguably easier than Annie. While her being braindead easy definitely contributed to her pick rate, I think her overall strength was the strongest factor.

I also think she’s still in the great spot and one of the stronger characters rn. I think all of her changes were pretty fair and the only ones I would really consider reverting are the j.mp and dash changes and not because they were too harsh, but to let Annie players have more fun cause those aren’t what broke her.

While we’re on the topic of fun I’m curious as to what the fun parts of Annie were to people. Not to be presumptuous but to me it feels like a lot of people’s “fun” with Annie came from her being so powerful and less about Annie herself being fun to play. I feel like if we can focus on what was fun about Annie (minus her just being strong), we can focus on lowering her power level to a more reasonable level while still keeping the aspects of her people found fun intact.
I don’t think anyone is saying she’s in a bad spot in terms of working as a character — all characters ‘work’ in game but echoing a tiny bit of what killsage said, but moreso triv…the design right now as a whole isn’t fine. You’re seeing it in terms of strength, others see (I’m assuming) in terms of style, identity & motivation. There’s zero motivation to take anything but the path of least resistance with her. Install & pillar being main culprits. hard to put in words, but If anything, a creative nerf is being asked for. a rework. so she’s not so…mind-numbingly easy to play, yet interesting.

Just as well correlation isn’t causation — did you notice anything in CEO/fall blockbuster on where people included Annie? Never point, only mid or anchor. many other toons have primary favoured positions sure, but it points to her (relative) weakness in neutral overshadowed by Pillar. you have to figure in how she’s getting in, not that she’s just strong or being put on teams. retroactive edit to lex: you're right, there are always exceptions to the rule, but i mean on average people seem to min/max the same way & seems indicative of pillar being the issue.

going on a tangent conversely, eliza, squigly & painwheel hardly showed up. Point, mid or anchor. No, of course they’re not BAD. But realistically in terms of viable options & flexibility…they don’t have as much &/or gotta work harder. in other words they’re weaker by the same logic put forth. People in my observation are fine with working harder or having not as many good matchups long as they have options (enter robo). I love the challenge personally but I was the only point squigly on stream for semis tmk. you saw primarily bella, peacock, band, para, double, filia, fortune & even more beo. They get better return on investment quite plainly. The overarching sentiment seems clear to me: people like flexibility, not just strength. annie is strong…after you dhc, but not very flexible. otherwise shed play point more.

sticking to what I mentioned before, install was the fun imo. There was a lot of install combo vids from sgmobile & pc version from release months ago. Core mechanics is (usually) what draw peopleon average in my view…why else is gg+r respected? Other games got fun mechanics too but characters & flavour is the soul. With that said let’s make her great again. As well as putting other characters in step with more flexible mechanics.
 
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did you notice anything in CEO/fall blockbuster on where people included Annie? Never point, only mid or anchor. many other toons have primary favoured positions sure, but it points to her weakness in neutral overshadowed by Pillar.
Sonic has been putting in work all year with point Annie (and Milk Pouch, iControl & Dhoppler have also all made top 8s at big online tournaments this year with point Annie teams). So I think there's decent tournament representation for point Annie. And I'd say that the reason you generally see Annie mid is not because of weaknesses on point but because of how strong and easy Pillar of Creation DHC is, which heavily incentivises putting her mid.

Generally speaking, every character is good on point because that's the spot where you can compensate for any weaknesses with assists/DHCs. If a character is usually seen mid or anchor it's because they have notable strengths that incentivise putting them there, not because they have weaknesses on point.

going on a tangent conversely, eliza, squigly & painwheel hardly showed up. Point, mid or anchor. No, of course they’re not BAD.
Painwheel and Squigly actually have had quite a bit of tournament success this year. In terms of top 8 appearances within the Evos and SGCS Majors/Minors they're both roughly middle of the pack in terms of appearances (PW's actually in the top half). Eliza is the only one of those 3 who actually has notably low tournament representation (though saying that, both she and Squig were in the CEO top 8...).

Obviously there are some flaws with judging character strength just off of tournament appearances (eg favours flexible characters, individual really strong players who play in lots of tournaments can skew the results, etc) but it seems like you've just chosen 3 characters that you think are weak and assumed that they haven't had success here, when that's really not the case.

I don't particularly have a strong opinion in the "revert/tone down Annie nerfs" argument, I just wanted to correct these points.
 
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Sonic has been putting in work all year with point Annie (and Milk Pouch, iControl & Dhoppler have also all made top 8s at big online tournaments this year with point Annie teams). So I think there's decent tournament representation for point Annie. And I'd say that the reason you generally see Annie mid is not because of weaknesses on point but because of how strong and easy Pillar of Creation DHC is, which heavily incentivises putting her mid.

Generally speaking, every character is good on point because that's the spot where you can compensate for any weaknesses with assists/DHCs. If a character is usually seen mid or anchor it's because they have notable strengths that incentivise putting them there, not because they have weaknesses on point.


Painwheel and Squigly actually have had quite a bit of tournament success this year. In terms of top 8 appearances within the Evos and SGCS Majors/Minors they're both roughly middle of the pack in terms of appearances (PW's actually in the top half). Eliza is the only one of those 3 who actually has notably low tournament representation (though saying that, both she and Squig were in the CEO top 8...).

Obviously there are some flaws with judging character strength just off of tournament appearances (eg favours flexible characters, individual really strong players who play in lots of tournaments can skew the results, etc) but it seems like you've just chosen 3 characters that you think are weak and assumed that they haven't had success here, when that's really not the case.

I don't particularly have a strong opinion in the "revert/tone down Annie nerfs" argument, I just wanted to correct these points.
I was mainly responding to most recently. Last year yeah there was a bit of variety, but I’m talking recently. as in current character habits/patterns on teams coming out of pools. Especially drops or changed team order after changes/etc.

i'd say we mostly agree though. I was going by what PME said & using that lens to talk about characters In a pointed way to illustrate it. of course you can’t judge tourneys as end all be all but it still begs the question why some are & arent seen as much regardless Of variance or player strength & I think it’s not fair to write that off just because we’ve seen them before. Can’t have it just one way. I mean…I use squigly & Eliza, if anyone champions use it’s me, but saying those characters are being cherry picked is overlooking what I as well as many others been saying over a sustained period of time or are squelched after trying to.

they’re not bad, there's no bad characters. But in the same way ‘fine’ shouldn’t be the standard for certain things, saying ‘hey look they popped up here’ isn’t either. overall on average they're in the lower rungs of appearance but youre right, they're not completely MIA. importantly though doesn’t negate them being characters people want more for. just wanna make it unequivocally clear: not trying to decide who’s better or worse since i never saw it like that. but instead that more change is wanted. ill try to keep points more succinct next time
 
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While I wouldn’t say that people are asking for Annie to go back to full power, people are definitely acting like she’s in a pretty bad spot rn and imo downplaying just how strong she was. Ceo had 6/8 teams have Annie in top 8 and I don’t even think launch Fukua was that bad and she was arguably easier than Annie. While her being braindead easy definitely contributed to her pick rate, I think her overall strength was the strongest factor.

I also think she’s still in the great spot and one of the stronger characters rn. I think all of her changes were pretty fair and the only ones I would really consider reverting are the j.mp and dash changes and not because they were too harsh, but to let Annie players have more fun cause those aren’t what broke her.

While we’re on the topic of fun I’m curious as to what the fun parts of Annie were to people. Not to be presumptuous but to me it feels like a lot of people’s “fun” with Annie came from her being so powerful and less about Annie herself being fun to play. I feel like if we can focus on what was fun about Annie (minus her just being strong), we can focus on lowering her power level to a more reasonable level while still keeping the aspects of her people found fun intact.
For me, one of the most fun things about Annie was slowing the pace of the game down. It made some of the volatile offense that people ran in this game have to think twice about doing it. The mindgame (minus if youre filia) was pretty straightforward with running behind Crescent or to disengage. Due to dash speeds changing, now she feels like this awkward zoner.

The other fun part of playing Annie is just playing neutral with strong grounded footsies. On point, I feel she has to think a little harder than most characters to hit the opponent, and the most common way is counterplaying them since she has the tools to answer almost everything in neutral. If you had good fundamentals and good SG game sense, playing her spacing game and pressure game I think is some of the most fun I’ve had in SG. It feels like I’m making the other player have to interact with my personal strengths (footsies and space control) a lot, and the closest character in this game that does it almost as good as Annie is Parasoul!

ESPECIALLY if the opponent over extends in a situation where I jump back and whiff punish with J.HP. There is nothing more satisfying to me than them falling into J.HP traps where it’ll hit them or be at the perfect spacing where it is a 50/50 when I punish the opponent’s overextension.
 
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Thank you for explaining, that opened my eyes more on what Annie (or at least you) enjoy with her. I would assume then that in your eyes the ideal nerfs for her would be like slightly lower damage and a pillar nerf of some sorts correct? If so I 100% agree with you. I always felt the two biggest problems with her was how hard she exploded you and how easy pillar enabled it. Honestly I would have been satisfied if those were the only areas of hers that got targeted by the changes.

This may come as a shock but I always thought annie was just some small tuning away from being perfect and never wanted her gutted nearly as bad as other people seemed to. I agreed with your initial impressions on the changes (minus making point pillar better) it just felt like people were downplaying how strong she was andbacting like you had no reason to play her now when the changes weren’t that bad. Which I guess goes back to the stuff I said earlier about double about how people don’t really clarify if they mean something is less fun vs it being bad. Thanks again for clarifying your stance so I can see you and the other Annie’s perspectives better
 
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For me, one of the most fun things about Annie was slowing the pace of the game down
Pretty sure this is because having 2 bars halted 80% of the cast from moving at all

Let me clarify: It wasn't using pillar that halted neutral, it was the threat of it. Simply having 2 bars let her control the pace of the match, not spending it, just having 2 bars did that.

But after seeing more of Annie recently, it seems fair to change back jMP, but damage nerfs and current pillar nerf should stay.

On the topic of install, I actually think the stars should have more blockstun. Currently, they have so little blockstun that it's hard to pushblock Annie away, which causes accidental backdashes into getting tagged by another star. But that's more of a personal opinion in terms of tweaking install than anything, since the ADC jHP in install not producing stars already helps with this a bit.
 
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I personally liked how destructive Annie was because it made it so that people died when I hit them, I miss Double level 5 for the same reason the game is more fun when I have to deal with you the least. Currently a lot of the game is heavily lopsided to band for the same reason, I liked that Annie was/is an alternative to BIg Band while being fun and having a different form of versatility. I don't think she was going to dominate the meta as a glue character as assists like brass were suitable to counter calling an assist like this and I also think it opens up more reason to snap in Annie to remove that utility she has from just being on the second slot. I think the conversion distances were pretty ridiculous so I think that itself was a good call.

I also miss the size of her jHP stars (and the fact that you could shoot them more than once), though obv they couldn't be kept because usually a good defensive tool tends to be an enormously strong offensive tool. I really did think Annie slowed down the game H Crescent is (thankfully) a great neutral tool I don't think her dash speed being slower makes her less of a defensive character, if anything Annie will probably be fine if that part stays I think Annie's kit lended her to being able to back off and press a button as a threat and that was a lot of fun, reminds me of Painwheel except really good and less effort (I still think Painwheel is secret S-Tier provided you're a robot). I don't really play characters for the damage (despite me liking you dying when I hit you) I like them for the neutral game and Annie's was fun. She could really set the pace with larger normals and a projectile, kind of like a grounded version of Valentine.

H Knuckle was doomed to be nerfed as it does damage and corner carry and it's two hits so it's like H bomber except a lot better. I think just lowering the damage could be fine the carry I feel is the part I thought was cooler, you could birthday carry pretty far with quite a few characters which made it so you can punish bad calls a lot easier, again making it so that you have to think about pressing that assist.

Basically Annie made it so that I could punish any stupid idea, it made it so that you (my opponent) actually had to think about your approach. THIS WAS AWESOME

It was also a good match up for PW imo which made her more relevant with Annie becoming more relevant. (Even though nobody still players her lol)

I'm still pretty hopeful that Annie can still do this though personally I was only in it for the meter steal and install and those seem to be going away bit by bit. I stopped playing her after meter steal left...

It was just nice to have options that do similar things or better on different characters I think SG is desperate for a change like this to up overall team viability rather than having to rely on like 4 characters.

I just don't want it to go back to double band bella (even though they never left) Zzzzzzzz

Unrelated: I was wondering if meter gain could be scaled by ratio as well as it's currently the only thing that *isn't* (Val's vials, health, damage are all scaled by ratio)
 
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Pretty sure this is because having 2 bars halted 80% of the cast from moving at all

Let me clarify: It wasn't using pillar that halted neutral, it was the threat of it. Simply having 2 bars let her control the pace of the match, not spending it, just having 2 bars did that.

But after seeing more of Annie recently, it seems fair to change back jMP, but damage nerfs and current pillar nerf should stay.

On the topic of install, I actually think the stars should have more blockstun. Currently, they have so little blockstun that it's hard to pushblock Annie away, which causes accidental backdashes into getting tagged by another star. But that's more of a personal opinion in terms of tweaking install than anything, since the ADC jHP in install not producing stars already helps with this a bit.
My post was in relation to her whole toolkit and not pillar of creation to clarify. H crescent is the name of the game with her on point. Yes I enjoyed using a fireball and playing a slow methodical neutral game with her and now it feels I only zone with it.

You don’t play to use Pillar on point, you play to kill them after a reset by meter dumping. Pillar on point was a rarity, but it was clutch when it came into play. Again I agree with the damage nerfs and Pillar as I felt those were the only areas that should have been nerfed. Everything else was just a bit excessive.
 
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I just remembered something, since hurtbox changes seem to be happening, is bella going to get changed so that her hurtboxes will be more in line with other characters or will she always be bonkers in that regard?
 

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While we’re on the topic of fun I’m curious as to what the fun parts of Annie were to people. Not to be presumptuous but to me it feels like a lot of people’s “fun” with Annie came from her being so powerful and less about Annie herself being fun to play. I feel like if we can focus on what was fun about Annie (minus her just being strong), we can focus on lowering her power level to a more reasonable level while still keeping the aspects of her people found fun intact.

Install, install combos, stars, routing, reverse routing, s.HK star sending people flying. I thought it was the coolest thing, and also the idea of having another character besides PW having an install? When I first saw it I thought of it as going Super Saiyan.
 

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I just wanna throw this out there but why did robo level 3 install get the nerfs that it got, it feels so mechanically stiff now to what it once was