The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[FuLLBLeeD]

Getting accidental ms.Fortune taunt has gotten me killed too many times to count, so I would also like the inputs changed to something else.

There's actually plenty of footage of me just getting Fortune taunt when I want to dash back LK Fiber or something and dying for it so yeah I 100% cosign this.

I would also like to still see Throne of Isis stagger on hit to increase the move's versatility.

 

[Triviality]

I'd like to see you be able to hold Isis ala Rainbow Mika wrestler assist for cool conversions or setups

 

[Stuff]

I know I'm in another losing battle when it comes to this but I really don't like Robo's new level 3, it's cool and it's strong but idk it doesn't feel iterative on robo, it just feels like a completely different character. Honestly I feel like just the ability to timer extend was more than enough since now you can use old robo install with it's sliding knockdown > get heads > continue zoning > repeat (you can do this with new robo install except I think they can tech foward and imo j beam 66 j beam is harder to do very well) I know it likely won't be reverted due to all the work it took to change it so much in the first place but idk just like anything here that I write I just want to write to make sure it's been written down at least so I can say I at least tried. (and at least for me I don't think there's really a binary for truth when it's all up to interpretation anyway.)

A lot for me isn't really down to balance just more character feel, I don't really like characters getting more rushdown-y granted you can use robo level 3 much more effectively as a zoning tool than the old one but idk I was kind of hoping for something different. Obv one person wanting a character to be different compared to idk literally everyone else is kind of a hard sale I realize

Idk as the game progresses it just seems to feel like you have to do more and more complicated stuff just to do something effective. I feel like APM gets more and more important for anything that you do to matter. I'm not sure I like that

 

[Nuuance]

Well she is a technical character w/drones specializing in rushdown with special movement + zoning.

i guess my question is what would you propose. Never mentioned any alternatives to play with. it does make me raise an eyebrow hearing that cuz robo install is so cool as a vastly undertapped resource. Moving faster + iad feels great to me as a circuit (limit) breaker, and much of her identity revolves around movement. SG does in general. As a whole level 3 & is quite uncommon to see; timer extension generally speaking I like. it’s not just handed to you, you have to work for it & drain health while doing so.

So while I wholeheartedly disagree there, I absolutely understand functionally wanting more interesting/different normals, danger specials, beams &/or especially drone generation/effects. Admittedly it does feel a bit odd having those untouched & would give combos some serious pizzazz tbh. assume the timer would decrease a little faster, but I’d be more than cool with that long as it’s not too crazy. curious what robo players think after mulling it over

 

[Stuff]

I just think with time extension, the old level 3 kit was fine, the only problem I had with the old kit was that you couldn't zone with it because it put you in a bad spot which felt backwards for robo. New level 3 is good and strong but now it feels like if you don't combo with it you're wasting it and I personally liked the niche of old level 3 where your zoning was definitely superior just also extremely limited. [Yes I'm aware you can still zone with the new one but often times it feels like it's better to go into combo instead] Time extension would be the only buff needed to fix that but instead she now has a rocket launcher and is yet again another rushdown character. I don't really care that the new one has a combo game or a mix up game since I'm not interested in those parts of SG, I think they're the most boring parts of the game. What I love the most is the ability to go back to neutral and do it all over again. But in short, new level 3 feels like you have to go into combo or else you're not using the character correctly. (which is p much every sg character)

I just like to have my little niches but they always get taken away, that's all. I see a niche, I like it, it's not always strong but it can't be strengthened because nobody else wants it lol.

Also I don't like the argument of a character being complicated so it's okay that it stays that way or that it's wrong to want to make it simpler, I could just be reading incorrectly but it makes it very hard for me to want to bother saying anything.

Maybe one day a character will cater to me but at least for now you'll all unfortunately have to suffer listening to what I think (unless you already blocked me)

 

[Nuuance]

I just think with time extension, the old level 3 kit was fine, the only problem I had with the old kit was that you couldn't zone with it because it put you in a bad spot which felt backwards for robo. New level 3 is good and strong but now it feels like if you don't combo with it you're wasting it and I personally liked the niche of old level 3 where your zoning was definitely superior just also extremely limited. [Yes I'm aware you can still zone with the new one but often times it feels like it's better to go into combo instead] Time extension would be the only buff needed to fix that but instead she now has a rocket launcher and is yet again another rushdown character. I don't really care that the new one has a combo game or a mix up game since I'm not interested in those parts of SG, I think they're the most boring parts of the game. What I love the most is the ability to go back to neutral and do it all over again. But in short, new level 3 feels like you have to go into combo or else you're not using the character correctly. (which is p much every sg character)

I just like to have my little niches but they always get taken away, that's all. I see a niche, I like it, it's not always strong but it can't be strengthened because nobody else wants it lol.

Also I don't like the argument of a character being complicated so it's okay that it stays that way or that it's wrong to want to make it simpler, I could just be reading incorrectly but it makes it very hard for me to want to bother saying anything.

Maybe one day a character will cater to me but at least for now you'll all unfortunately have to suffer listening to what I think (unless you already blocked me)

Maybe just me but seems like theres some crossed wires. mentioned it doesn’t feel iterative, but then say would rather cut most of what it is...or that neutral was liked, but the old version could kinda-but-not-really do it as well even though it’s possible with this one.

No one forces you to do anything with install, you choose your vibe same as in normal mode. whether you ignore beams as one solo player does, stick with genuine zoning & schmovin away with beams/drones, or go into a level 3 magnet combo. Nothing stops you from carving out your niche the way it is now. Being facetious, but if you don’t like new kanye, can still play like old kanye. If the other options aren’t liked don’t have to take them away from others enjoying the expression for an already niche super not used as often.

 

[missingno]

I still can't get used to losing my double jump, but I know that's a me thing. Love that she did get the airdash, but I wish she could just have both.

 

[Triviality]

I know I'm in another losing battle when it comes to this but I really don't like Robo's new level 3, it's cool and it's strong but idk it doesn't feel iterative on robo, it just feels like a completely different character. Honestly I feel like just the ability to timer extend was more than enough since now you can use old robo install with it's sliding knockdown > get heads > continue zoning > repeat (you can do this with new robo install except I think they can tech foward and imo j beam 66 j beam is harder to do very well) I know it likely won't be reverted due to all the work it took to change it so much in the first place but idk just like anything here that I write I just want to write to make sure it's been written down at least so I can say I at least tried. (and at least for me I don't think there's really a binary for truth when it's all up to interpretation anyway.)

A lot for me isn't really down to balance just more character feel, I don't really like characters getting more rushdown-y granted you can use robo level 3 much more effectively as a zoning tool than the old one but idk I was kind of hoping for something different. Obv one person wanting a character to be different compared to idk literally everyone else is kind of a hard sale I realize

Idk as the game progresses it just seems to feel like you have to do more and more complicated stuff just to do something effective. I feel like APM gets more and more important for anything that you do to matter. I'm not sure I like that

I just think with time extension, the old level 3 kit was fine, the only problem I had with the old kit was that you couldn't zone with it because it put you in a bad spot which felt backwards for robo. New level 3 is good and strong but now it feels like if you don't combo with it you're wasting it and I personally liked the niche of old level 3 where your zoning was definitely superior just also extremely limited. [Yes I'm aware you can still zone with the new one but often times it feels like it's better to go into combo instead] Time extension would be the only buff needed to fix that but instead she now has a rocket launcher and is yet again another rushdown character. I don't really care that the new one has a combo game or a mix up game since I'm not interested in those parts of SG, I think they're the most boring parts of the game. What I love the most is the ability to go back to neutral and do it all over again. But in short, new level 3 feels like you have to go into combo or else you're not using the character correctly. (which is p much every sg character)

I just like to have my little niches but they always get taken away, that's all. I see a niche, I like it, it's not always strong but it can't be strengthened because nobody else wants it lol.

Also I don't like the argument of a character being complicated so it's okay that it stays that way or that it's wrong to want to make it simpler, I could just be reading incorrectly but it makes it very hard for me to want to bother saying anything.

Maybe one day a character will cater to me but at least for now you'll all unfortunately have to suffer listening to what I think (unless you already blocked me)

Det mode and robo are perfect characters just the way they are, and the reason for this is the complete thesis of skullgirls and the matters of Skill Expression and open-ended kits

The whole point of the 2016 det mode without a timer was that it FORCED you to make a play, getting hard knockdown from fullscreen gave you time to make a decision, whether it be to go in, or get heads and tag out. She is literally detonating herself, it isn't "Supercharge zoner install" and it's not like its her only level 3 because she has a seperate level 3. If you don't wanna go in with robo just don't use detmode, that decision or gameplan will not hurt you as a player

Current det mode I was worried about at first BECAUSE I felt it made her zoning stronger. But now that I've experimented with her air dash, I think its honestly perfect. The fact that she can opt to either Rush-Down, or Zone, with the tools to elevate both means that now Zoning robos can use her install and install can have completely different dimensions of playstyle and player expression

TL:DR:
1.Detmode is good

2.Characters should have designated playstyles, but they should not be restricted to it

3.Robo having rushdown tools is amazing is an example of 2

4. The reason some of us are against things like Peacock nerfs to her tools that are ANYTHING except zoning is because of this sentiment, forcing characters into specific roles turns every character in the game into either a One-Trick like beo, or makes player expression generally more stale like with double

 

[Stuff]

Maybe just me but seems like theres some crossed wires. mentioned it doesn’t feel iterative, but then say would rather cut most of what it is...or that neutral was liked, but the old version could kinda-but-not-really do it as well even though it’s possible with this one.

No one forces you to do anything with install ... Nothing stops you from carving out your niche the way it is now.

Iterative means that you have a base and keep that base similar but improve it kind of like when you facelift a car model, it's still the same old car but it's a little different. This new level 3 is like changing the sedan to an suv and calling it the same model, they are not.


The fact that robo changes to a completely different character is exactly what forces me to not play the way that I like.

In short, this is brilliant! But I like this more.

Det mode and robo are perfect characters just the way they are, and the reason for this is the complete thesis of skullgirls and the matters of Skill Expression and open-ended kits

I don't think Robo is in a bad place either, I agree. I don't agree with the second part because for something open ended it always boils down to mix up or combo or both.

The whole point of the 2016 det mode without a timer was that it FORCED you to make a play, getting hard knockdown from fullscreen gave you time to make a decision, whether it be to go in, or get heads and tag out. She is literally detonating herself, it isn't "Supercharge zoner install" and it's not like its her only level 3 because she has a seperate level 3. If you don't wanna go in with robo just don't use detmode, that decision or gameplan will not hurt you as a player

The way this is worded makes me feel like there is a de-facto way Robo is supposed to be but I think there's plenty of room for interpretation. I don't really like when things are presented so matter of fact. I probably misinterpreted though. And also there are situations where you have to use her install because it just so happens to be a really good defensive tool considering it has so much invuln and I don't really understand why install has to be rushdown oriented it can be the old way with just the timer extension and still have the same risks but it'd be simpler imo so in a way you are stunted to the use a character if you can't use the parts that help the character out. I don't think she necessarily needs to be only zoning but I like the old way because it was simpler and chipping was fun albeit still possible in its current state, I liked being able to lag behind and stay back just 'cause I enjoy the neutral aspect a lot more and sliding knockdown was cool because you can just waste so much time and I'm a fan of strats like that.

Current det mode I was worried about at first BECAUSE I felt it made her zoning stronger. But now that I've experimented with her air dash, I think its honestly perfect. The fact that she can opt to either Rush-Down, or Zone, with the tools to elevate both means that now Zoning robos can use her install and install can have completely different dimensions of playstyle and player expression

I don't understand why this means it can't be the old way with just the timer extension though, I wanna express myself too, I think I'm a player as well. I personally think Robo isn't much of a zoner but more like a trap character not in the traditional sense but more in the way that her annoying-ness she puts you in an unfavorable situation where you have to over-reach, in that way this is her trap. I think she is very fun in this regard. However I'm also aware I'm in the extreme minority when it comes to this, I'm going into this knowing what I want will more than likely not happen. But I figured I should say something now or forever hold my peace.

TL:DR:
1.Detmode is good

2.Characters should have designated playstyles, but they should not be restricted to it

3.Robo having rushdown tools is amazing is an example of 2

4. The reason some of us are against things like Peacock nerfs to her tools that are ANYTHING except zoning is because of this sentiment, forcing characters into specific roles turns every character in the game into either a One-Trick like beo, or makes player expression generally more stale like with double

1. I agree
2. Why is this the only way a character can be in SG? There's nothing inherently wrong with a character specializing in something, not that any of them really do.
3. Not sure how to respond
4. Not sure how to respond I think this is also up to interpretation.

Overall I'm not really sure what to say other than we disagree and that's cool, I don't think there's a right or wrong. (This is how I feel about the Eliza post though also wasn't sure how to respond without being misconstrued somehow, sorry for not responding.)

I still can't get used to losing my double jump, but I know that's a me thing. Love that she did get the airdash, but I wish she could just have both.

Same.

I don't really feel like how I personally feel about something should be something to debate, I just feel this specific way, we don't agree and that's okay, I don't think the character is bad or must be a certain way, (rather, I don't feel like how I interpret what a character is and what it does is going to be something people will agree with, I see the game differently than most I feel) I just wanted to air my preferences. If Robo and Eliza stay the same then hey at least I tried and I'm happy with that. If that didn't come out clearly then that's entirely my fault, I'm very bad with words

 

[softie]

old det mode sliding kd beams with time extension would be so absurdly toxic and sleep tier can we not


oh you missed the dashblock on a beam Im going to put 10 more seconds on the install clock



her lvl 3 is so much fun rn

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Robo Fortune is very strong where she is rn imo

 

[shuckle]

I know this is stupid but is anyone else annoyed at how much Umbrella references salt? Yeah it's a meme but she has way too many lines going "lol salty"

 

[tso]

maybe ive just not noticed that, but it has to be fewer memes than miss fortune

 

[Triviality]

I know this is stupid but is anyone else annoyed at how much Umbrella references salt? Yeah it's a meme but she has way too many lines going "lol salty"

I share this sentiment

 

[SonicFox]

I personally love the fact she calls you salty

It also seems super intentional her voicelines are meant to annoy you

 

[Nuuance]

I'd like to see you be able to hold Isis ala Rainbow Mika wrestler assist for cool conversions or setups

sidenote hope this gets considered for her assist specials in general

 

[ShakyFingers]

I would still like for Fortune's head to be changed so it doesn't completely break combos/supers at times. Having a kill confirm just for her to fall out of my dyanmo/SSJ, tech away and punish hardly feels like it was my own mistake. Certain Beo routes also don't even work around the head. cMK fails to go into clinch if it hits her and the head at the same time, the head gets in the way of Killa+A-Train, you can't do cHP>jHP>H Beam on her in the corner, etc etc. The downside to her taking her head off is supposed to be her taking more damage if she makes a mistake and they're both caught in a combo, but sometimes - even if it's not every time - it ends up doing the opposite.

My suggestion is making it so that hitboxes that connect with the head don't go away if they don't also hit the body, and removing the hitstop on the head(if just making the hitboxes linger doesn't fix it)

The nerfs she got in the beta are, in my opinion, very minor for who I have as the top 1 character, but they didn't address what my problem was with Fortune. I'd be fine with them being reverted if my issues with the head were fixed since I'm against anymore majour nerfs and would just like certain things to be tuned.

To drop my 2 cents on Annie really quick, the only problem I had with her was Pillar of Creation, so I agree with some of the Annie players' complaints. Since the super was addressed, I feel like her other changes weren't necessary and at least her jMP and run speed should be reverted.

Also Robo is still fine.

(Also also: Thank you for all of your hard work, Liam and company)

 

[DoubleOrNothing]

Make Peacock c.LP vacuum like c.MP and c.MK? Or at least not push as far away, the second hit can still push away, it IS a puff of smoke.

 

[Stuff]

Headless Fortune being able to lose to hitgrab set ups now kind of sucks, nom oki is really good against her now and she can't AA chairless (also jHP is an overhead lmao) effectively unless you time 2MP really well (head-on can still hit him doing this as usual with proper timing), I feel like this is an unseen side effect of the nerf and probably wasn't intended but characters with hit grabs or m shadow assist make it so that she can't really do anything except hold it or do an unsafe super. So I thought I'd mention it though if that's intended I guess that's just how the cookie crumbles.

Overall I think she'd probably survive (relatively speaking it doesn't do that much) but I just don't see the 'why' on keeping it since it feels like a solution to a problem that didn't exist and makes more problems for the character without addressing whatever people have problems with. I'm definitely in the "revert this" camp though I'm not sure it matters what side I'm on.

I realize people see blood in the water and say it's fine but again it doesn't even really target fortune where people find her annoying which is generally the fact that people can't punish whiffed fiber but the counterplay already exists I don't see why needing to counterplay a character is nerf worthy, DPs assists exist on most characters and if you're feeling spicy spaced AA throws are also in the game, in addition to armored moves that meaty a DP in the first place and there's also projectile oki and you can choose to block thus being able to punish etc etc so it's not like you strictly have to run one specific character (eg brass v peacock [and beam I guess?]) to do something about it. I still think that if it HAS to be nerfed, making it more minus on block would be a better solution but hey that's just me, I'd rather not see it change at all but I'm throwing it out there.

 

[Lex]

Hitgrabs aren't affected by throw invuln, strike invuln is what matters for them (which is why head-on Fiber beats hitgrabs still despite losing throw invuln). So headless losing throw invuln on Fiber doesn't affect how she deals with hitgrabs; it lost to hitgrabs before and it still loses to them now.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Hitgrabs aren't affected by throw invuln, strike invuln is what matters for them (which is why head-on Fiber beats hitgrabs still despite losing throw invuln). So headless losing throw invuln on Fiber doesn't affect how she deals with hitgrabs; it lost to hitgrabs before and it still loses to them now.

She's also got three supers that are all reversals, so I agree with Lex, these nerfs are fine.

 

[CaioLugon]

I'm pretty bothered about fiber losing to H giant step now, but other than that it's whatever.

 

[Triviality]

I'm pretty bothered about fiber losing to H giant step now, but other than that it's whatever.

Im gonna be honest, I dont really find Ms. Fortune to be the war crime she has recently been made out to be, with the right strategy you can get her out of the air, and what she brings to a team is practically nothing

I thought "Lmao my dp is also a movement option" was a meme to laugh at, i didn't think it was actually a point of order towards balancing her, she still has all the "really strong" stuff I hear about her despite this nerf

 

[Ikkisoad]

To me her nerfs were all unnecessary, she is strong and it is fine; the price you pay for playing a character that is not good at the back.

 

[AloneLULz]

If we are onto the "randomly gets saved out of combos omegalul" train, can we please address Double being immune to basically all headless routes for no reason whatsoever? I still don't see why she gets to drop out of so many common nearly-universal routes (which aren't universal exclusively because of her).

While we are talking about characters that passively get out of combos, Bella's anchor point is also another major glaring issue.

 

[mpgame99]

Fortune is still a top tier character with her nerfs so I really see no reason to revert them. She lost practically nothing offensively which means the only time you really feel the nerfs is when you fuck up and get hit. It’s not like Annie/Doing how where they couldn’t do certain setups/teams anymore cause of the nerf. Also the other “really good on point but bad teammate” characters also have additional weakness outside of their bad utility so using that to defend fortune doesn’t really help in my book.

Fortune historically, is a character who’s really good at almost everything and bad at nothing. High damage, best pressure in the game, good mix, fantastic mobility, and one of the best defensive kits in the game (pre patch). The only major thing she’s not amazing at is neutral, and even then she’s still solid and doesn’t struggle in it. I think giving her a bit more weaknesses that players can exploit is fine.

Being completely honest, her fiber nerfs only made her go from one of the best defensive kits to an average defense kit. She still has a 5 frame jab, a ground super that gives her oki, an air super, a double jump, an air dash and an annoying raw tag. Keep in mind fiber is still a safe on whiff reversal that beats strikes (the more threatening option). I really find it hard to believe that the nerfs did enough damage to warrant them being reversed

 

[CaioLugon]

It's more along the lines 'if isn't broken, don't fix it' I think. Fiber beating throws was never a problem and fortune is still very much a top tier character so this just feels like an empty nerf. It doesn't really do anything to address the "broken" aspects of the character and makes her a little bit less enjoyable to play, so why bother?

I honestly think retail fortune is in a pretty good spot now in terms of being really strong without anything that stands out too much as particularly overbearing, and most of the issues people have with her are about inconsistencies involving the head. I understand it's a difficult problem to tackle but making other random aspects worse feels like a pretty bad way to go about it.

 

[Stuff]

Thanks for the correction Lex, I probably forgot my bad

And idk regarding the fiber issue it's down to principle, Fortune is currently a strong character but I don't think it's warranted to change fiber at all and we can all agree she's gonna be fine without the throw invuln but there was just never that problem in existence that needed that change to exist. Like if the idea was to punish fiber more often, why not just make it more minus on block and reward an already existing punish option slightly more? It's currently hard to land cancel punish at some distances (though I personally think it's fair) and at some distances that punish can be a little difficult on the ground at a distance I just don't see why the throw invuln had to disappear? Like yes she has metered options, like any character does, but I don't see why that makes it okay to remove a non-issue aspect of the tool people find frustrating?

Secondly I still believe people have the issue of Fortune escaping from a whiffed fiber at a distance where losing throw invuln doesn't really matter so I just think it's a nerf for the sake of nerfing rather than tackling whatever issue people have about her directly.

Idk to me it's not about whether it hurts the character, it's just... why? Like it's fine but what are we fixing, why is this okay to change?

Also if fiber jump is really that big of an issue, sometimes you have to counter pick and use an AA assist, whatever it may be, it helps a lot. Also also, your mileage may vary but Fiber jump itself is in an inactionable state, you can hit her out of it, Big band has the easiest time at it, some characters can just use an assist like beam to stuff it and other such long lasting projectiles. So idk the counter stuff exists and I don't know just how feasible it is for every character but I still feel these things are suitable counters.

I just fail to see the relevance to this nerf and honestly even the other ones don't seem to change Fortune much either and I also think those are unwarranted too but I also think the fiber tool itself is the easiest to make an argument about. (I personally find making her jumping hitbox bigger pointless as most characters have giant normals anyway and I think the only somewhat warranted nerf might be the jLK nerf and she's still really good with it in place since her mobility is still one of the best) Because the throw invuln aspect was never an issue with the character, I can't help but feel like I have to defend this one thing because it feels so out of place and unnecessary. I can't help but feel like if the "she's fine" argument prevails we're gonna end up with nerfs for characters that are fine even though no core issue was changed but it's "fine" because it doesn't make the character worse (but it also didn't solve anything either) that's where I have the biggest problem.

I really think the overall quality of the balancing change should matter too, not just whether it hurts the character or not.

I still think everyone else should just get buffed instead.

Also if we're gonna talk about combo consistency I think we have a lot of characters in mind that randomly slip out of things.

 

[Triviality]

Fortune is still a top tier character with her nerfs so I really see no reason to revert them. She lost practically nothing offensively which means the only time you really feel the nerfs is when you fuck up and get hit. It’s not like Annie/Doing how where they couldn’t do certain setups/teams anymore cause of the nerf. Also the other “really good on point but bad teammate” characters also have additional weakness outside of their bad utility so using that to defend fortune doesn’t really help in my book.

Fortune historically, is a character who’s really good at almost everything and bad at nothing. High damage, best pressure in the game, good mix, fantastic mobility, and one of the best defensive kits in the game (pre patch). The only major thing she’s not amazing at is neutral, and even then she’s still solid and doesn’t struggle in it. I think giving her a bit more weaknesses that players can exploit is fine.

Being completely honest, her fiber nerfs only made her go from one of the best defensive kits to an average defense kit. She still has a 5 frame jab, a ground super that gives her oki, an air super, a double jump, an air dash and an annoying raw tag. Keep in mind fiber is still a safe on whiff reversal that beats strikes (the more threatening option). I really find it hard to believe that the nerfs did enough damage to warrant them being reversed

||| X character is a problem, for Y reasons

The team has decided to nerf Z

Character will still be an issue because Y was complained about, thus changing almost nothing and make the character more of a hassle to play, while retaining the issues people initially had the problem yet |||

Nerfs to characters shouldn't exist like this, especially for skullgirls. Retail Pillar of Creation is the most uninteractive thing this game has ever had, a nerf to it makes sense. Fortune being strong, but still having interactions isn't grounds to nerf something like defensive options because this things were not things people had issues with

I hate to be a broken record but people are still complaining about peacock in beta for her strength. People are complaining Annie is too weak because things unrelated to her problems we're nerfed. Once again we're having a nerf cycle where the dart has missed the board, making characters weirder/inconvenient/worse to play because they've been gutted in areas that have had no affect on their impact. This means we haven't even moved away from square 1 of issues of these characters and their effect on the game, while simultaneously making the people who play them more unhappy

 

[mpgame99]

I guess my logic on this situation is that in a lot of cases, the stuff people want nerfed is also the stuff people who play the character enjoy. So leaving the character with their strong tools but giving them additional weakness seems like a happy medium. I mean the things people complained about the most on double (catheads) got nerfed and multiple double players here and on Twitter have complained about how she’s not fun anymore.

Like to me a character getting a nerf but still being just as dominant doesn’t really register as a problem to me. Like did I think the Robo H beam changes were needed? No. Is H beam still one of the best assists in the game? Yes. So I just shrug and get over it. Peacock, fortune and Annie are all still considered to be top/high tier characters post nerfs so like I guess for me it’s hard to like… care that they’re slightly less fun to play.

 

[Triviality]

I guess my logic on this situation is that in a lot of cases, the stuff people want nerfed is also the stuff people who play the character enjoy. So leaving the character with their strong tools but giving them additional weakness seems like a happy medium. I mean the things people complained about the most on double (catheads) got nerfed and multiple double players here and on Twitter have complained about how she’s not fun anymore.

Double players I knew we're moreso complaining about L-Luger knockup changes, and not about catheads. Even so, I honestly think catheads changes we're whatever, hell, I was fighting it for 5 years, I don't mind if they got one more airgrab worth of hits on dhc

Like to me a character getting a nerf but still being just as dominant doesn’t really register as a problem to me. Like did I think the Robo H beam changes were needed? No. Is H beam still one of the best assists in the game? Yes. So I just shrug and get over it. Peacock, fortune and Annie are all still considered to be top/high tier characters post nerfs so like I guess for me it’s hard to like… care that they’re slightly less fun to play.

It is a problem when a character can be nerfed 4 times and still be considered just as strong as they've been. It's also a problem when nerfs are so intense that half the playerbase of a character considers dropping the character

Like seriously, Ive given up using a simple conversion for Peacock because the MBomb change made it a 5 frame tighter link. A conversion mind you, I've been using since 2016-2017. But her impact on the game as a whole is still going to be unchanged and players who want her ACTUALLY nerfed are still going to push for it, but I still have to hold the L on this adjustment for the result of ???

////////////////////////////////////////////////

Lets talk about the H-Teleport Nerfs for a sec

People at first brought up that it was too good for mix-ups, okay, well I think strong mix-ups exist, and I can cite tourney footage, and Gelatos guide on how to beat H-Teleport setups

Then people brought up that it was very good at getting her out of the corner with a strong assist, reasonable, but the assists that we're mostly allowing this was H-Lock and H-Brass/DP Assists

The nerfs focused in on H-Teleport as a whole, which affects her synergy with the entire cast, when you could kinda just rule out a few assists that we're breaking some rules and apply minor tweaks to make interactions with certain "OP" assists brought down

Like, the reason H-Lock-N-Load gets fullscreen mixups off of H-Tele was because bella gets brought forward on the screen, kinda like how robo does now, this is the same for H-Brass. Why not just remove those assists property to be bound onto the screen, like reverse-apply what was done to Robo's H-Beam, but for assists that are getting extra travel distance by the properties of the camera. You could even argue it tones them down as a whole since people can literally just main "H-Brass assist"

But the TL:DR is that Hey: Theres a lot more to say about why something might be busted than just "Easy Escape, Easy Mix" and we shouldnt make players adjust to things that have no impact on the game or how others feel as a whole without analyzing the context as to why these points come up

Every change should have meaningful impact, and if it doesnt, then I can't argue that it was a needed change at all

 

[DoubleOrNothing]

I'm gonna throw my hat in with what Triv is saying. If these slapped on yellow penalty card nerfs for Fortune stay I'm gonna drop her just on principle.

 

[Lawnalog]

I don't really mind the H teleport assist change when I'm playing as Peacock but I actually really miss playing against it. Some of the most fun I had with the game was labbing different characters to see what kind of cool counter plays they had against it, and I felt there were always really strong counter play potentiaI a lot of the cast had that just needed to be looked in to more. I loved finding new tech, then playing a match and being like "I dare you to teleport + assist" then smoking them for it, and all the mind games me and TJ had around teleport+assist and my counters to it was always so much fun and I would be sad to see it go tbh.

 

[Triviality]

I don't really mind the H teleport assist change when I'm playing as Peacock but I actually really miss playing against it. Some of the most fun I had with the game was labbing different characters to see what kind of cool counter plays they had against it, and I felt there were always really strong counter play potentiaI a lot of the cast had that just needed to be looked in to more. I loved finding new tech, then playing a match and being like "I dare you to teleport + assist" then smoking them for it, and all the mind games me and TJ had around teleport+assist and my counters to it was always so much fun and I would be sad to see it go tbh.

This, this, this, so much

we shouldn't be nerfing things that have clear counterplay

 

[Nuuance]

I don't really mind the H teleport assist change when I'm playing as Peacock but I actually really miss playing against it. Some of the most fun I had with the game was labbing different characters to see what kind of cool counter plays they had against it, and I felt there were always really strong counter play potentiaI a lot of the cast had that just needed to be looked in to more. I loved finding new tech, then playing a match and being like "I dare you to teleport + assist" then smoking them for it, and all the mind games me and TJ had around teleport+assist and my counters to it was always so much fun and I would be sad to see it go tbh.

It’s really cool to see a spirit of play like that. definitely relate. competition aside, characters express style & would rather not take away stuff if it can be helped. crazy mix has been a pillar of sg forever & much is just left/right mind games. goes both ways in the sense that discouraging mix by guessing right is a big thing. discerning differences between practically/borderline uncounterable oppression & good mix should be paid attention to.

just makes me a little sad the 1-2 months of this could’ve been put elsewhere rather than reverting while still having the same character concerns on the table for bigger topics discussed at earlier times.

agreed. leave room for smart counter play.

 

[Stuff]

People at first brought up that it was too good for mix-ups, okay, well I think strong mix-ups exist, and I can cite tourney footage, and Gelatos guide on how to beat H-Teleport setups

((can I have this video?))

Any chance that Painwheel's flight speed won't be penalized going backwards? This includes backwards momentum as well (from unfly), it feels really bad how you're just incredibly slow trying to make space with a slower than normal characters. (super jump back into flight is miles better to do in general though I'm talking general movement) Really if Painwheel has less penalties for doing literally anything, that'd be cool. (flight cieling, buer taking a fly cancel, flying backwards being slow, any of these penalties would be nice to see removed. Doesn't have to be all 3, just one I think would lend Painwheel more freedom.((Honestly being able to fly cancel more often even after a buer would do A LOT so maybe not that one but it'd be really cool I guarantee it.)))

Painwheel is a great character (I think she's a top tier [In theory, with the perfect player, she is likely an S tier]) but also to make her shine you have to be incredibly good and it'd be nice to change the limitation to be more human. I'm not legendary speedrunner, TAS.

It'd also be nice if Painwheel's dash start up was a teensy (or maybe it's the momentum that should be a little faster, idk I don't make games) bit faster if she isn't going to get any faster lights, mostly suggesting 'cause sometimes on a double snap situation Painwheel's dash start up coupled with a slow light button is kind of a feel bad situation and you lose a critical chance to win because you just happen to be way too slow in general. Really sucks against non-lights. Here's a ![video]! it's also not any easier considering her faster lights are tied to the hatred guard mechanic which means sometime you might not get the normal at its intended start up but in the video she clearly closes the gap, just not fast enough to hit big band, fwiw I don't think this is a true max range scenario since idk the exact distance double snaps work in but yeah. Maybe it's a universal issue against Heavies or non-lights idk. Maybe her double snap can move her forward after the snap hits? idk it'd just be nice to not have a thing you did good actually be bad.

I'd like to add, in a 0 ud situation, yes PW can just go for more carry, I'm talkin' the only thing she can do is snap and has no other option, it's sad to be in the distance to snap and then be unable to do anything about it 'cause it'll likely drop at that distance and to add insult to injury, you just wasted a bar to watch Big Band get up and leave.

 

[Triviality]

((can I have this video?))

Huge apologies but it was actually Peck who made the video, not Gelato, sorry sorry sorry

 

[Stuff]

This is very helpful! (and probably in need of a different thread, my bad)

[I was wondering what someone would do in the case of 5HP LnL H teleport but also that's probably best in another thread but that punish seems a little harder or maybe I can't wrap my head around it but I can't seem to jump back and hit Peacock consistently which at least for me seems to be the most you can do when 5HP or similar is in the mix (not L george since it's slower so you can back dash) Seems to me like this is limitied to characters with the ability to reposition in the air or have a normal that hits backwards since the don't auto correct on normal jump but also I have difficulty when it comes to labbing, I'm really bad at it]

But overall the concept itself works, thank you. Also Mr Peck from 7 years in the past, thank you.

 

[Triviality]

quick example i could find of me beating it but if you werent in blockstun, going forward in response to the setup means you go away from peacock, which helps against the aggressive play

You can countercall an assist if you have it to bust the bella, making you have more options against peacock TPing in

And this is the big one, EXPECTING it, here, I tech forward keeping my eyes on peacock, I see shes in the corner, I see bella come up, I countercall robo and brace for the teleport, I block it and PBGC mbang to get out of the setup
EDIT: I didnt even see it but right after that, swift beats MY teleport setup with teleportdodge superdhc punish

Step 1 is not being in a situation where you can just get blockstringed teleported on

Step 2 is knowing when its gonna happen via telegraphing and situations, and beating it when you know your prepared

 

[Liam]

I am terribly terribly sorry I haven't been around to discuss all this at length with everyone, just keeping up with Season Pass development and deliverables has occupied more than all of my time. For those of you who left your feedback here, even if you didn't stick around to discuss it with others (something that can be taxing on the mind, I know as well as anyone), I have read it all - thank you!

We're still focusing on finishing Umbrella (that last 5% of polish always ends up taking 10 times longer than expected), creating her tutorial, trials, palettes, finishing her voice acting integration, polishing up the final version of her stage, etc, and preparing for future characters, so not as much time has gone into balance patch iteration as we're used to. That said, I think most of the contentious "experiments" that have been brought up that I've wanted to try, have been tried. I also think we can do without most of them!

I am going to give a quick update on things to come and a bit of a brain dump here, as that's all I have time for at the moment, but all of this stuff is always subject to change so quote me on things with great risk or even peril.

• I think a big portion of non-Annie experiments will see adjustments and probably removals. The metaphorical bucket of old character experiments that I'm aware of is more or less empty now, and I prefer to keep it that way. In general, players may be encouraged to "hold that" more often than they like when it comes to the older characters in the game.
  
  
• Annie (and other DLC characters after their releases, I'm sure) are still going to see changes. If Annie's effectiveness on point is going to stay closer to where it was before, then her DHC synergy and DHC damage is going to be reduced even further for example. We need pros and cons for picking different characters and team building. This part in bold: Choosing one character over another with benefits and drawbacks (like min-maxing a build in an RPG where you can never fully unlock every perk or max every stat) is healthy, and characters that check too many boxes make me uncomfortable. Characters will see adjustments if they encroach on the diversity of Skullgirls team building.
  
  
• For characters that have received larger changes recently (most notably, Eliza, Robo-Fortune, and to some extent Beowulf), we may try a few things at times to make sure things are in a healthy spot.
  
  
• The next build also has a ton of Umbrella changes, so stay tuned for those.

Hoping to get another update out soon (tm) on Steam, going to go back to focusing on that now!

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It's also a problem when nerfs are so intense that half the playerbase of a character considers dropping the character

There is, potentially, a tiny parallel, to be drawn between this and the mass exodus of Fukua players (myself included) that occurred when "the shadow zoning neutral and the M Shadow vortex left right into a truck load of damage, gameplan" (her identity at the time, if you will) was removed.