The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[Stuff]

I actually like this a lot. I could see Fukua benefitting immensely from this as part of her problem is she needs to use meter basically any time she wants to use throw in a low/throw pre-hit situation or mix for confirms. Fukua's zoning is relegated to one projectile whose meter gain is based off distance traveled (so when using the up close darts they barely give anything at all), and shadows that if held sap her health as well, and don't build that much. She doesn't get a great amount from her combos either. Not only would better meter gain allow her to spend it more freely for confirms, but she could also do more double level 1 super routing for better damage overall, making the tradeoff of losing her health feel more worth it since she'd get more out of it. PW I definitely feel needs this as well, especially if install is gonna stay level 2.

About Fukua:

To start, I don't play Fukua, I'm sorry Fukua players that read this (but I wrote it anyway so I'm not that sorry). One thing I thought would be interesting is if Fukua still loses health for holding shadows maybe her shadows can have a base amount of meter build (on hit or whiff) but to incentivize holding shadows we balance the risk/reward with meter so that on a successful hit Fukua still loses her health but gains bonus meter to compensate for it (she will still build whatever the meter is for whiffing upon failure to hit or blocked). This could be a pain in the ass to implement and balance though (she could end up too strong again) so an overall meter buff for everyone might be the better way to go. (and also she can just have a base meter build on the fireballs 'cause they're currently overtuned.) (I personally think her shadow mix ups are really strong but since somehow fukua is still bottom 2 [I don't agree] or whatever maybe that would help her a bit while keeping her mostly the same?)

I'm very cautious when it comes to Fukua because of her past iterations, she can be a hard character to balance though so maybe she could be re-tuned a bit. Though personally I think she's more on the weaker side in terms of overall utility than singular character strength but again, I don't play Fukua but part of why I don't play her is that I don't like any of her DHC options (I think M shadow assist is cool and her style of zoning is fun but that alone wouldn't get me to play her).

(I quoted the above post mostly because it made me remember this idea I had for Fukua.)

 

[CaioLugon]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1574183227539030016

I dont care how salty i sound. As long as peacock exists i will never respect this game as competitive. Theres no such thing as being "good" at a game with peacock in it. Skullgirls is the exact same thing as mario party until peacock is removed.

 

[sheep]

Desirable Umbrella changes to be wished for:

jhp:

landing hitbox improved as advancing jmp jhp will tend to land on the other side and you won't get your juicy last hit damage from it. I consider jmp jhp to be her potential highest damage opener because of being able to save UD thanks to cancelling the final hit with sns/rush and retaining combo stage. extend the landing hitbox behind her, problem solved

jhp > wm should also be otgless, idk how it isn't already with how important it is to cage them in wm for setplay, but instead we have some weird 5mp > wm in yellow/red if you don't have otg

jlk:

the option to reverse beat into this button. would fit in the theme of her being paras sister and gives umbrella much better conversions off jmp since jhp might not be a good option to hitconfirm with if unsure and jhk hitbox always tends to whiff when umbrella does rising jmp jhk bcz of how jhk is "lower"

5hp:

jumpcancel on successful reflect and/or actual project invuln. I think project invuln is really important because some projectiles can actually high profile the reflect hitbox on it, but I'd be more partial to just getting jc on successful reflect. probably a lot of work to do that potentially liam don't hate me please

idk what you're gonna be doing to spruce her up more than just QoL but I'd really like to see mystic stare to be included as part of her specials instead of locked behind a super, but I would imagine that is too much work

Bobble:

option to hold jmk float fully after performing a bobble hop. jmk is already such a godawful button with how its puddle splash effect is near useless with how you go to stage 3 and burn otg, alongside how short the flight time is. change would give umbrella players more incentive to abuse bobble jump and mix up their float movement to pounce on people

holding button to instantly pop bobble without the use of normals or whatnot. would give umbrella a incredible frametrap tool instead of using sns which is EXTREMELY prone to getting mashed through by reversals, even in rav since the bobble doesn't give a fuck if umbrella gets hit if being popped

Ptooie:

option to change arc somehow? I personally don't even know if you could code it in such a way but if possible I would desperately enjoy being able to change the arc of ptooie by holding down a button. at least a simple form of being able to control ptooie would help more intelligent players better place this projectile, like holding left or right during startup to change where ptooie will arc like so:

Rush:

arc changed roughly to fiber uppercuts angle and full invuln restored. would help umbrella immensely with getting good corner carry and just how shit the button is of a reversal at the time of writing this, no thanks to its poor horizontal reach

Tongue Twister:

somewhat controversial but increase the speed of the tongue in red by about ~25% to call out people carelessly zoning or sleeping

I'm not gonna poke the hornets nest on wm, I'm leaving that for others to discuss


if you take anything away from this post, I just want to say that this character should have far better screen control in exchange for her existing poor mobility, like the ptooie change I suggested above, or liam mentioned something like being able to bat bobble across the screen with 5hp in umbrellas early development cycle

 

[Hyggend]

Adding to Sheep's suggestions.

Spoiler: Umbrella begging

jhp:

landing hitbox improved

I used to think this was asking for unnecessary buffs wherever we could, but with time I've realized that to get jmp jhp you have to do the weirdest neutral jumps of all time. This would be extremely welcome.

jhp > wm should also be otgless

Again, used to think it was unnecessary but with our only good resets being gated behind OTG or corner on more than half the cast, this would also do a lot. Also would make her do more damage, so keep that in mind.

jlk: the option to reverse beat into this button.

I have no comments on this other than that it'd be funny.

5hp:

jumpcancel on successful reflect and/or actual project invuln.

5HP is god awful as a reflector. It tends to lose against projectiles (H Cut) or, as sheep said, get high profiled. It also loses to multiprojectile moves and beams. If you want it to be anything other than a gimmick, give it some sort of reward or insurance you won't die for it.

I'd really like to see mystic stare to be included as part of her specials

It would be cool...

Bobble:

option to hold jmk float fully after performing a bobble hop.

I honestly think jmk should let you do this by default. It's awful as both mobility and a mixup.

holding button to instantly pop bobble without the use of normals or whatnot.

This would actually change a lot and it would make her a lot scarier and less mashable. Also would make hunger burn in neutral about 8 frames faster per bobble. Would be cool. I'd like bobble to also do something against Peacock personally.

Ptooie:

option to change arc somehow?

I sometimes miss the old ptooie arc so that'd be nice. It still gets popped by a single George so I don't think it'd change any of her matchups dramatically tbh lol.

If you ever decide to do this, though, it'd be nice to be able to use it as an assist, too.

Rush:

arc changed roughly to fiber uppercuts angle and full invuln restored.

Rush is the worst defensive DP in the game (tm). Maybe tied with Khat. As an assist it's mediocre, as point it's literally useless. You only wanna use it against a Sekhmet when they're fully overextending. It shouldn't have lost full invuln and I still wouldn't use it if it had it, it's awful. And its tendency to whiff point blank is sad. Anything is welcome. Would like to see a faster ascent so that it actually gets to use that "great vertical range" before its invuln runs out halfway through the way up.

Tongue Twister:

increase the speed of the tongue in red

I don't think this is necessary, it's already pretty fast.

wishmaker

If you make it go about half screen in satiated (not in ravenous) and make it stay if Umbrella gets hit by a projectile, I'm happy. (Bobble should also stay on projectile hit.)

I also have around 50 QOL complaints that are making me go insane please make 2hp and snap passable I beg you

 

[sheep]

please reduce the end of match timer from 40sec to 20sec, as well as the char select screen from 80s to 30sec

really sick of prissy little idiots getting destroyed and then pissing me off by being useless and unkissable by waiting 40 seconds on end of stage, going to char select, wasting another 80 seconds then picking the same fucking team, then if they get to stage select thats yet ANOTHER 20 seconds eaten up just because little baby man couldn't handle a turtling double as solo beo

really cool and fun having my time just endlessly wasted by scrubs who refuse to actually play the game, to the point where I just altf4 if I see their dumbasses in qm again.

I really don't think in qm you need to have /all/ that time to think about shit, its really awful and theres a lot of "regulars" who just love to abuse the ludicrous amounts of time

 

[Hyggend]

We've been talking about Satiated lately, and I think this is a pretty common sentiment.

Umbrella feels a lot like an extra effort character. In Satiated she's the worst in the game, and in ravenous she's not close to being the best. And since Satiated isn't interesting, it ends up just feeling like artificial difficulty in a character that doesn't deserve the difficulty increase.

Stuffed serves its role as absurd damage dealer, ravenous makes her viable, starving is a punishment. Why is Satiated also a punishment? She survives only because Ptooie and Bobble are good, but even then she's fighting for her life with almost no tools.

This is much less of a problem when playing her mid, which lets her play from the moment she gets in. I don't think this is something that needs to be fixed, but she'll always feel unsatisfying on point because of it.

 

[sheep]

I don't even think yellow is "bad" in a sense

its like squigly without charge, work towards your win condition of getting red

 

[Triviality]

1. Red Mode Makes Umbrella an Objectively Better Character At All Stages of her Gameplan.

2. Red is a difficult mode to maintain due to resources, undizzy, and her toolkit

3. Red Mode is not a reward* [despite being something you earn and MAINTAIN] but her required gameplan [to function]

Spoiler: Triv Rant*

Reward as in, an alternative gameplan you execute for a different kind of reward

Robo's level 3 is a good example. In the Rework it was listed as an alternative style of play. Your reward for maintaining robo's detmode is speed, damage, the ability to cash out. the best alpha counter in the game.

The cost of maintaining this mode is health, and time, as well as opportunities getting heads and cashing them in. Many robo players will find success NOT using level 3 in their play. And if you make a singular misplay, you almost always lose robo.

This Risk/Reward, this Un-required depth to Robo's Kit, creates a whole other level of skill-expression. Players can go out of their way to seek the rewards of Robo's Detmode, punishing players who aren't exposed to it, and or comitting to making it work, while other players may not use it. This variability is nice because it means different robos play in different ways.

WHen Robo's play in different ways, it makes the game more fun. Why? Because two different robos in a tournament bracket that I have to fight might play differently. Different people WATCHING the game can pick out different playstyles for robo players. It means that when I as a player go into det mode, I can abuse my opponents lack of knowledge.

--With this in mind. It feels really bad to see Umbrella players, Including PenPen at this point, getting a hit with their umbrellas, immediately going into blue mode, and thinking to myself (They are piloting this character incorrectly) instead of (They are piloting this character Differently)

 

[Hyggend]

I don't even think yellow is "bad" in a sense

its like squigly without charge, work towards your win condition of getting red

Yeah, the difference is that Squigly still has almost all her tools without charge and gets her charge in under a second, so she can still play in different ways.

I don't mind Satiated being bad, I just think it's boring af to start every single match with a backdash, calling an assist and doing ptooie > bobble 5lp 5 times in a row.

And against zoners I don't even get to do that so I have to rush them down as the character with the worst mobility in the game. It really feels like I'm not getting to play my character against Robo or Peacock, because I can't interact with my main mechanic at all lmao

 

[nope.avi]

help
https://clips.twitch.tv/PopularImpossibleSwordDatBoi-XzEV2ryamJbGTVOQ

my stabilizing multihit normal didn't lead into my launcher

 

[MachiTheFool]

Placing this here since I think it's worth note, I've been compiling a document of suggested changes , buffs and reworks for Umbrella, and I have assembled many of them into a document so that everyone's ideas can be in one place. I figure this might be helpful feedback for the devs, if they do decide to implement some changes in the future.

If you wanna contribute, you could try suggesting an idea to me or Hyggend for either of us to add, or request access to add it yourself (I'll need an email to give you access)

 

[Hyggend]

Can we please have Argus' RNG removed? This is beyond stupid. It baits pushblock, it ruins DHCs, it's just so bad and adds nothing interesting to the game whatsoever for anyone. Peacock players hate it, normal players hate it. Why.

 

[05mario]

help
https://clips.twitch.tv/PopularImpossibleSwordDatBoi-XzEV2ryamJbGTVOQ

my stabilizing multihit normal didn't lead into my launcher

Welcome to filia's world
Fr though can we make more of the multi hit moves in this game vaccum so they work properly 100% of the time? Im already shooting my scaling so why can't It at least be consistent?

 

[Stuff]

could every character also be able to go to the next button at max range no matter what? I can't distinguish pixels.

Stuff like max range Robo jab doesn't connect to the next one or 5MP so you're kind of required to just go to the next thing immediately and that sucks.
Also if you can't distinguish literal pixels you just kinda die for it and that sucks.

It's rare but it sucks. Like, at minimum I'd like my confirm to always work. This can be solved by making the hitboxes slightly larger or by reducing the amount of pushback done by the normal. Though that could introduce some strange routes I guess but what I'm trying to say is.

L should always combo to M at max range
idc if L to H doesn't but M to H always should etc.

At max range jab range with Robo the only thing that combos is 5MK and 2MK and probably 5HP but what I'm trying to explain is that I shouldn't need to distinguish ranges this miniscule and have a godlike reaction to confirm that spacing when it can just always work esp when I'm just trying to do a jab jab confirm into combo. Dying for that sucks... The only adjustment I can make is just be godlike under pressure and just sense the distance somehow and always confirm correctly but I think that's asking a lot for a non-robot. (Lots of characters have this problem and somehow I'm the only one that always gets them. Skill issue I guess, I'm just that much of a pro)

ALSO can robo please have a better otg button? Please? 5LK is cringe, let it hit the floor. Pretty please with a cherry on top? I'm begging you, I lose so many OTG confirms because Robo otg is cringe (S tier character btw). 2MP works but it's slower, 2MK works but not really since it's a sweep. Assist OTG pick ups as robo can be so dreadful in some situations. (Honestly I wish otg in general just worked better idk why the characters get so tiny)

Spoiler: People will hate this but pretty please????

I really hate that Robo jMK will whiff behind her sometimes and then I die for it. This would maybe fix that? idk. This is an edited image, the actual normal is much thinner.

 

[Yatoto]

Can we make Peacock's bombs go away on hit? This is one of the most toxic things that still exist in this game, having her bombs not go away on hit just forces players to try to play around it by doing messy conversions that almost always lead to a dropped combo and peacock escaping, or in the worst case (which happens very often), Peacock gets to combo you after George hits. And while we are at this topic, also make Fukua's dart go away on hit and make it so Annie's crescent cut gets destroyed if she is hit during the start-up of the move, no character should have a projectile that just breaks combos for zero effort or resource usage.

Twitch

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https://twitter.com/x/status/1574183227539030016

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

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[Stuff]

If at least H plane disappeared... I stg....

Part of what annoys me about Pea is that you solves a lot of issues with her when you have meter but then you're also fighting a character that builds tons more to counter your meter and even when you DO have meter. You STILL might not win because she just so happened to drop a plane. oopsie poopsie

Even when you hit her, you're wrong. That's frustrating...

 

[Yatoto]

If at least H plane disappeared... I stg....

Part of what annoys me about Pea is that you solves a lot of issues with her when you have meter but then you're also fighting a character that builds tons more to counter your meter and even when you DO have meter. You STILL might not win because she just so happened to drop a plane. oopsie poopsie

Even when you hit her, you're wrong. That's frustrating...

Personally, i always found L George more egregious due to the slow movement that it has, but i understand the H george hate. It just really sucks to have to play against all the strong tools that Peacock has and finally get a hit on her, just to lose because she did an L george and now you just have to drop your combo because if you do not, you get hit by a george and then she puts on a 50/50 that loops into itself and is safe if blocked due to item drop (something I think we should discuss as well)

 

[05mario]

Can we make Peacock's bombs go away on hit? This is one of the most toxic things that still exist in this game, having her bombs not go away on hit just forces players to try to play around it by doing messy conversions that almost always lead to a dropped combo and peacock escaping, or in the worst case (which happens very often), Peacock gets to combo you after George hits. And while we are at this topic, also make Fukua's dart go away on hit and make it so Annie's crescent cut gets destroyed if she is hit during the start-up of the move, no character should have a projectile that just breaks combos for zero effort or resource usage.

Twitch

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clips.twitch.tv

https://twitter.com/x/status/1574183227539030016

Twitch

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Pea needs bombs to stay on hit. I think its fine and its also a core part of the characters kit so shooting it would make pea feel awful to play. The real cap with pea lies in item drop. It really should vanish the moment you hit pea and it doesn't. Trading with item drop because a pea saw you approach and dropped it feels like crap. Fukua's dart shouldn't go away on hit because why are we kicking a character while their down? Its fine as is and if you get hit by it in a trade scenario you were probably being to agressive. It barely stays on screen, is tied to a psuedo reosource and already has other restrictions. The annie thing would be nice but it isn't too much of a problem outside of a few very niche situations.

 

[Yatoto]

Pea needs bombs to stay on hit. I think its fine and its also a core part of the characters kit so shooting it would make pea feel awful to play. The real cap with pea lies in item drop. It really should vanish the moment you hit pea and it doesn't. Trading with item drop because a pea saw you approach and dropped it feels like crap. Fukua's dart shouldn't go away on hit because why are we kicking a character while their down? Its fine as is and if you get hit by it in a trade scenario you were probably being to agressive. It barely stays on screen, is tied to a psuedo reosource and already has other restrictions. The annie thing would be nice but it isn't too much of a problem outside of a few very niche situations.

Can you elaborate on why exactly Peacock's bombs need to stay on hit?

From my perspective, her bombs staying on hit are just too strong because it makes it hard to punish her for playing reckless or to just getting a hit on her because you have to drop your combo/conversion to not get hit by a George and get punished for trying to punish her.

Also, i think her bombs staying on hit are just too much when you consider her entire kit and moveset: she has easily one of the best movement in the entire game thanks to J.HP and her teleports, she has the best meter build in the entire game, she has amazing damage potential due to things like Argus + Lenny Loops, she has one of, if not, the best vortex in entire game due to the way M Item Drop works (Which basically gives her a Left/Right mix up which is safe if blocked, has a second layer of IAD/Low, Loops into itself and can easily be improved by using assist that push the opponent higher, making so that you can't see peacock moving, making the mix even more strong.), She can do Happy Birthday combos that are really high damage and have a Left/Right mix up that is also safe if blockes, and finally she also has a DP that while is not the best DP in the game, its still a strong one that is relativity hard to punish. All of these things combined are just too much for a single character to have, and as i have said before, having all of these insanely strong upsides while also having the ability to just ignore interactions with the opponent by throwing a projectile that does not cost any resource and is pretty much effortless, it becomes something overwhelming.

While removing her bombs staying on hit wont solve even half of the issues that Peacock brings to the table, i think that will atleast make fighting her something more bearable and will not make peacock less fun or weaker to fight against, because the Peacock player will essentialy play the exact same way, but without getting away from combos or being punished because you throwed a George.

 

[Nuuance]

If the suggestions will even be listened to…at this point…almost seems like talking to a wall many times as topics been covered. Personally don’t think anymore should be discussed until the team shows they even care about it past a webtoon or new tiktok account & people demand an answer for content we were encouraged to give feedback on then abandoned. Been a year & great points on both sides been made, still nothing. Why persist. But hey, why not this one more time.

If peacock took the time to set/fire her projectiles, she should be rewarded if you get hit by it. This coming from someone whos never and will never play peacock. Robo is hitscan, peacock isn’t. Para takes time to set tears as well. Dahlias trap stays when she gets hit. Eliza’s (bad) throne stays on hit. Traps & set play tools should be kept as such.

you trade immediacy for coverage

we’ve all been there on the walking George stuff but doing a launcher or super/dp, or sweep then jumping over is always an option. No different than Fukua following up a slow fireball. It doesn’t go away. Instead it’s just walking George and it lags behind.

Totally agree on item drop though, that’s kind of ridiculous since it’s homing & the attack never came out in the first place unlike bombs which are already on screen.

 

[Aristal]

If the suggestions will even be listened to…at this point…almost seems like talking to a wall many times as topics been covered. Personally don’t think anymore should be discussed until the team shows they even care about it past a webtoon or new tiktok account & people demand an answer for content we were encouraged to give feedback on then abandoned. Been a year & great points on both sides been made, still nothing. Why persist. But hey, why not this one more time.

If peacock took the time to set/fire her projectiles, she should be rewarded if you get hit by it. This coming from someone whos never and will never play peacock. Robo is hitscan, peacock isn’t. Para takes time to set tears as well. Dahlias trap stays when she gets hit. Eliza’s (bad) throne stays on hit. Traps & set play tools should be kept as such.

you trade immediacy for coverage

we’ve all been there on the walking George stuff but doing a launcher or super/dp, or sweep then jumping over is always an option. No different than Fukua following up a slow fireball. It doesn’t go away. Instead it’s just walking George and it lags behind.

Totally agree on item drop though, that’s kind of ridiculous since it’s homing & the attack never came out in the first place unlike bombs which are already on screen.

I don't believe that Peacock projectiles should stay on the screen just because ''she has to set/fire them''.

Mainly because it's not like you are going out of your gameplan to set those projectiles, Peacock basic gameplan is to zone you out with her projectiles, and she shouldnt have a get ouf jail for free card just because she took 15f at worst to throw a projectile.

It's already really bad for most of the cast to get past her zoning, and then you have to also deal with a walking combo breaker that allows her to play recklessly and punish YOU for geting trough her zoning and hiting her.

Yes, you can use the argument of ''just do this or that'' but most of those situations you are giving up a combo after hiting her, and thats probably the best scenario for you, cuz its a lot more common for you to get hit by the George and end up in a situation where she has the advantage.

 

[Nuuance]

I don't believe that Peacock projectiles should stay on the screen just because ''she has to set/fire them''.

Mainly because it's not like you are going out of your gameplan to set those projectiles, Peacock basic gameplan is to zone you out with her projectiles, and she shouldnt have a get ouf jail for free card just because she took 15f at worst to throw a projectile.

It's already really bad for most of the cast to get past her zoning, and then you have to also deal with a walking combo breaker that allows her to play recklessly and punish YOU for geting trough her zoning and hiting her.

Yes, you can use the argument of ''just do this or that'' but most of those situations you are giving up a combo after hiting her, and thats probably the best scenario for you, cuz its a lot more common for you to get hit by the George and end up in a situation where she has the advantage.

Whether it’s her gameplan or not, like parasol, you are going out of your way to fire them rather than running away, going in or doing other moves. Regardless of how much any think it’s fire & forget, theyre not. Take around same time as robos drones…so yeah. you have more than enough time to maneuver or pbgc jump/etc.

not gonna say skill issue but it’s kind of unfair when almost half the cast has similar interactions. Ultimately it’s no skin off my back because I don’t play her but looking at the team makeup from replies, every one of those teams have great ways to deal w/getting to her pretty safely. If you got hit by something, like you got hit.

i get she can be annoying but welcome to zoners. It’s not that serious. And no it’s not most of those situations. launcher instead of continuing ground string takes care of majority of those situations. Don’t have to give up anything. If it wasn’t like that I’d agree right along with you. I don’t have any reason to make things harder on myself either, but that’s the thing, it’s never been that hard in the first place. It’d be different if bombs were instantaneous. They’re not.

I personally like peacock & don’t want that to change. Some other stuff I can understand but I don’t see it

 

[Stuff]

I would like to point out that Robo does not kill you from a head drone and she has to get a head in order to even get the good projectile in the first place while Peacock just has that all the time and CAN kill you from it.

I don't see what's so wrong with making Peacock make a real decision for once. Also when you hit Para they go away and she also can't kill you from a stray one nor do they save her, give her a kill combo chance, nor do they give her advantage on a trade.

Y'all, I really hate when other characters are brought in for comparison, they all have different uses for their projectiles and get vastly different things. 'cause if we want to make other arguments using other characters then gee I think Painwheel's nails should have the same exact frame data and hitboxes as Peacock's bombs (Including the tracking H plane has) and we'll see how fun that is to deal with :) After all it would be fair since Painwheel deliberately charged for about a whole second right?

Peacock should just have to commit more, she rarely has to atm and item drop getting nerfed won't do that much to match ups she smokes most of the cast in. I think it's really silly that the second Peacock does any bomb you just can't do anything to her anymore, it doesn't even have to be a deliberate choice most of the time. Unless your character has a move that lets them avoid the bomb entirely you just can't do anything or retreat which hey just so happens to be where Peacock gets to do literally anything she wants to do.

Why she has more than one pseudo dp I can't understand.

I think people make Peacock seem like this advanced 6 head character but she really isn't. Her basic zoning pattern lends her to have good trades, you don't have to deliberately aim for these things to happen, they just do. The skillful part is how good you are at converting from them.

 

[Hyggend]

If peacock took the time to set/fire her projectiles, she should be rewarded if you get hit by it. This coming from someone whos never and will never play peacock. Robo is hitscan, peacock isn’t. Para takes time to set tears as well. Dahlias trap stays when she gets hit. Eliza’s (bad) throne stays on hit. Traps & set play tools should be kept as such.

you trade immediacy for coverage

we’ve all been there on the walking George stuff but doing a launcher or super/dp, or sweep then jumping over is always an option. No different than Fukua following up a slow fireball. It doesn’t go away. Instead it’s just walking George and it lags behind.

Totally agree on item drop though, that’s kind of ridiculous since it’s homing & the attack never came out in the first place unlike bombs which are already on screen.

To be fair.

Para's everything goes away on hit; Fukua's fireballs have 12 frames of hitstun, a little over a third of what Georges have and you can only have one out at a time; Dahlia is unfinished and not in the game yet; throne is bad; headrones take resources that take like a second or more of doing nothing to get; Ptooie's arc is not very good.

For a character with so many options all the time and the best possible kit for keeping opponents away, I don't understand why I shouldn't get rewarded after a HCH. They should stay on projectile hit, but I don't think staying on a physical hit is strictly needed.

I'd rather they buffed some other part of her kit that is less frustrating to deal with and nerfed Georges to disappear when she makes a really bad play and I call her out on it.

 

[Nuuance]

To be fair.

Para's everything goes away on hit; Fukua's fireballs have 12 frames of hitstun, a little over a third of what Georges have and you can only have one out at a time; Dahlia is unfinished and not in the game yet; throne is bad; headrones take resources that take like a second or more of doing nothing to get; Ptooie's arc is not very good.

For a character with so many options all the time and the best possible kit for keeping opponents away, I don't understand why I shouldn't get rewarded after a HCH. They should stay on projectile hit, but I don'y think staying on physical hit is not strictly needed.

I'd rather they buffed some other part of her kit that is less frustrating to deal with and nerfed Georges to disappear when she makes a really bad play and I call her out on it.

paras set tears go away? thats my mistake.

For the other stuff i see what you guys are saying, fair enough, makes sense.

 

[Iso]

I don't know if this is even relevant to most people, or even it's good for the game at large, but one change I'd like to suggest is how much health Lenny has and how fast his timer ticks down depending on the damage ratio of Pea's opposing team. I labbed an M Bang Lenny punish in 3v2 ratio earlier this week, and tried to replicate it in 3v3 ratio only to explode because I was dealing too much damage. Increasing Lenny's health and his timer by 1.3/1.45x would resolve this issue, and make it so that people who want to experiment against Lenny are rewarded and don't have to think about niche interactions like that(which Pea is very good at generating by nature of her playstyle). I can see why the weird cases like Pea mirrors and how teams with 1.0x damage can deal with Lenny slightly easier would matter, but since most of Lenny's interaction with the screen is extra damage and conversions with Argus and zoning patterns that are more risky to approach on, I think it could be tested at the very least.
Sidenote: M Bang into Lenny is -10 and while I can occasionally get a punish off Para 5LP if Pea spaces it out basically no other character has that privilege if she does. Giving Lenny activation a few frames more endlag to make it like -12/-13 would make punishing this move a lot easier for the rest of the cast.

 

[Yatoto]

I think we should test the idea of Eliza having the ability to DHC into using Nekhbite (EX: Sniper into Nekhbite), as of right now, Eliza has one of the worst DHC synergies of the entire cast, giving this ability to her will make her not having to win neutral again after using LoS and enable some good synergies with other DHC options.

 

[Stuff]

Whenever the character patch happens I hope that the first buff is fixing Umbrella's passive which makes my already hard link 1f harder. PLEASE!!!

Painwheel is hard enough...

Squigly is easier to do this on... SQUIGLY

just one pixel (more like 4-5 but saying one adds drama) pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease

Editors note: It's not that the link itself is super hard, it's a 5f link as opposed to the usually 6f link. It's the fact that you have to time a 1f micro walk to then have a 5f window to still hit Umbrella with 5MP that's a herculean task. This 1f micro walk only applies to Umbrella and no other character.

 

[Stuff]

Gonna double post because this one is about Double. I think if Annie for some reason stays the same, I think Double should get un-nerfed because if Annie gets to be all that, nerfing Double seems pointless.

I have a feeling the team already knows but idk I just felt like saying it.

 

[Yatoto]

Gonna double post because this one is about Double. I think if Annie for some reason stays the same, I think Double should get un-nerfed because if Annie gets to be all that, nerfing Double seems pointless.

I have a feeling the team already knows but idk I just felt like saying it.

Trust me, you dont want to fight old Double, just because a character is strong doesnt mean we need to revert a character (that is still pretty strong) to her old form, specially when that old form had one of the dumbest design choices in this entire game (A.K.A Catheads).

 

[Triviality]

Trust me, you dont want to fight old Double, just because a character is strong doesnt mean we need to revert a character (that is still pretty strong) to her old form, specially when that old form had one of the dumbest design choices in this entire game (A.K.A Catheads).

i handle old double

 

[Stuff]

Trust me, you dont want to fight old Double, just because a character is strong doesnt mean we need to revert a character (that is still pretty strong) to her old form, specially when that old form had one of the dumbest design choices in this entire game (A.K.A Catheads).

Hi I'm Stuff, I've played this game since 2013 and I think Annie is just stupider old Double because now she has an airdash and better supers.

I'm just saying if Annie exists knowing we just nerfed Double and gave her Double's utility and Big Band's damage output and Painwheel's DHC combo extender. Then why did we ever nerfed Double when we just added a crackhead that does the same thing?

Which is why I think if Annie (Better Double Band PW) is in and gets no changes [changes pending, this is hypothetical idk if she'll get nerfed or not] then Double was wrongly nerfed and should be reverted to actually compete with the other lunatics. Because if other characters do her job better then she's just powercrept. I'm not saying that she's bad now fwiw, I just don't understand why a character would get nerfed for the reasons another one that does the same thing gets to keep all their crazy tools.

But if Annie gets nerfed, then ig it's fine maybe review some parts of her (double) to make sure she's not powercrept

It's just one of those "just in case" kind of things I like to mention for reasons unknown to even me.

 

[Ikkisoad]

Damn this is the "Revert Bella's jHP" all over again, there was only one major nerf on Double and it was a good nerf, old catheads DHC was something else. Annie is really powerful right now, one of the best of the game if not the top 1 character.

I find it hard to compare the supers though, both characters have the best sets of DHCs of course, but Double's really covers more interactions while Annie gives the damages and easy conversion (also on HBs).
Double is fine, she didn't lose much while still having great assists, good DHCs and being overall a strong character.

Annie is out of the curve while the rest of the cast is doing fine, it is sad to have to constantly read buff suggestions to characters that are and were really strong though, while characters like Eliza keep getting hit with nerfs.

 

[Triviality]

Damn this is the "Revert Bella's jHP" all over again, there was only one major nerf on Double and it was a good nerf, old catheads DHC was something else. Annie is really powerful right now, one of the best of the game if not the top 1 character.

I find it hard to compare the supers though, both characters have the best sets of DHCs of course, but Double's really covers more interactions while Annie gives the damages and easy conversion (also on HBs).
Double is fine, she didn't lose much while still having great assists, good DHCs and being overall a strong character.

Annie is out of the curve while the rest of the cast is doing fine, it is sad to have to constantly read buff suggestions to characters that are and were really strong though, while characters like Eliza keep getting hit with nerfs.

doubles l luger nerf was so big you have no idea

 

[Stuff]

Better catheads

Better puddle

Better car

Better level 5 (costs less)

All the while having an even better mix up game than Double, she is Double-2.

Anyway, hi I'm not saying Double is bad, I'm saying Annie is so good and fills Doubles role way better than even old Double then nerfing Double in hindsight is a bad idea. But it's dependent on whether Annie gets nerfed or not, if Annie is nerfed then w/e ig but I'm just saying if she stays the same, it seems kind of sucky that Double got nerfed at all because Annie is just so ridiculous.

I'm not even saying don't buff other characters so idk where you got that from. I'm just bringing attention to a potential philosophy issue in the balancing should Annie stay mostly the same.

 

[Nezo]

That was a sick fucking patch guys keep up the good work

 

[DoubleTrouble_sg]

Double's L luger nerf is a terrible change. It made it harder for Double to get L luger conversions for no good reason. There are already plenty of moves in the game that feel janky to use and this just adds to the pile. L luger has many things that keep it from being too good like damage scaling, having to spend OTG, having 37 recovery frames, starts at stage 3, most characters can crouch under it, and needing to spend meter or use an assist to get max range conversions. This nerf is completely unnecessary.

I don't understand why wanting L luger conversions to feel better is such a crazy thing to ask for. There are already so many characters in the game that can EASILY convert off of their projectiles from a far distance. But when Double does it... that's too good??? I'd rather just hear people say they dislike Double over people acting like this nerf was a good change.

I'm hoping the old L luger gets to come back or at least get something that makes L luger feel as good as the old one or better. I could suggest many changes for Double in general but L luger getting buffed is the number one thing I want for this character.

 

[Yatoto]

View attachment 16752
Better catheads
View attachment 16753
Better puddle
View attachment 16754
Better car
View attachment 16756
Better level 5 (costs less)

All the while having an even better mix up game than Double, she is Double-2.

Anyway, hi I'm not saying Double is bad, I'm saying Annie is so good and fills Doubles role way better than even old Double then nerfing Double in hindsight is a bad idea. But it's dependent on whether Annie gets nerfed or not, if Annie is nerfed then w/e ig but I'm just saying if she stays the same, it seems kind of sucky that Double got nerfed at all because Annie is just so ridiculous.

I'm not even saying don't buff other characters so idk where you got that from. I'm just bringing attention to a potential philosophy issue in the balancing should Annie stay mostly the same.

How is Annie's level 3 better than catheads when it costs more, its loses its mix potential by just upbacking and blocking and if you hit Annie during the super, the projectile dissapears?
Bionic arm literally has less invul than Car, which is FULLY INVICIBLE from startup up until double transforms into her normal form again, and when the super ends, she is right in front of you where she can take advantage of her amazing buttons (which some of are even better than the original ones, like painwheel c.lk and peacock j.hk).
The only one that i can see being better is Pillar, because it has the advantage of being fullscreen, but even then its not like Monster its suddenly trash or anything, Monster is a pretty good conversion tool and can be used during the opponent's incoming to do a strong left/right.
And about her mix up potential, both have the exact same mix up potential, both can easily convert off any stray hit into their vortex, and both of their vortex are extremely hard to defend against, the only real difference is that one prioritizes damage and the other safety if the mix up fails.

 

[Stuff]

How is Annie's level 3 better than catheads when it costs more, its loses its mix potential by just upbacking and blocking and if you hit Annie during the super, the projectile dissapears?

Ah so it has the same weaknesses as cat heads (minus going away on hit) but it's almost like people use it in situations where that won't matter. So in my eyes sure it costs one more bar but it really doesn't matter if it starts annie's game. I'm referring to its DHC use

Bionic arm literally has less invul than Car, which is FULLY INVICIBLE from startup up until double transforms into her normal form again, and when the super ends, she is right in front of you where she can take advantage of her amazing buttons (which some of are even better than the original ones, like painwheel c.lk and peacock j.hk).

I don't see why this matters, but you can just convert from Stinger which is a million times better. Again, I'm referring to DHC

The only one that i can see being better is Pillar, because it has the advantage of being fullscreen, but even then its not like Monster its suddenly trash or anything, Monster is a pretty good conversion tool and can be used during the opponent's incoming to do a strong left/right.

That's the only difference with puddle, you can leave a trap ig but doesn't really matter since the conversion aspect matters a lot more in this game.

And about her mix up potential, both have the exact same mix up potential, both can easily convert off any stray hit into their vortex, and both of their vortex are extremely hard to defend against, the only real difference is that one prioritizes damage and the other safety if the mix up fails.

Double only has left/right and very rarely an overhead
Annie has all that, but with a reliable overhead, a large throw range, and an air dash which imo makes cross ups way harder to spot so idk. Also idk what you're on about safety all annie has to do is yell "Wave!" and oops she's safe.

Better buttons, Better moves. Papa Annie's.

Let me reiterate my point, it would be hypocritical of HVS to nerf Double and then make a character that works similarly [if not better] to Double in terms utility.

So this is the point where HVS has to think "Do we want everyone to be like Annie?" In which case Double now was nerfed for nothing (and everyone should be buffed massively) or "Do we want to make Annie less centralizing?" (which would mean Annie would get nerfed and the other top characters everyone complains about)

That's all, Annie is the deciding factor.

I don't care if you think Double is strong or weak or in the middle, hell I don't even like Double, she can die for all I care. I'm just saying that there's discrepancies to take care of in terms of just the philosophy first before even touching a single character. I'd rather that part be the solved issue first and we can all talk about balancing from there.

Regardless of the answer though, I think the low tiers should get buffed first and see if they compete better with the current meta and then go from there.

 

[Nuuance]

instead of comparing annie and double...i think before even getting to that conversation, it'd be good to just wait till final dlc, then talks on whole roster patch/changes. Notably Annie first.

Annie shouldnt even be remotely like she is now so it almost feels like schrodingers cat just talking about a character who has a million supers, one of the worst installs ive seen from a user & opponents vantage point (too expensive, doesnt feel good and is a turn-your-brain-off-super, hardly creative enough to install in/out for people to repeatedly use it). Her real level 3 isnt even used like that...Rework for sure. A lot taken away (like jank stars on install), but give special actually dope stuff like mobile!! tbh i still think mobile rendition would pop.

(should) start @2:30 mark

That's to say again, comparing Double, an entirely different archetype to Annie, doesn't really make sense. Annie's *the* most confused character in the game. But more the point to stress is I'd really like characters to have expanded core mechanics to have stronger identity apart from a new system mechanic or 2 especially w/these new games/patches dropping. Overall it still seems like there's this really big conservatism on new interesting stuff and wish that'd dial back for cast patch; like loading special bullets without meter as dahlia, having more interesting things to do w/shadows as Fukua, actually *spending* blood and not just picking it up on Eliza...theres a lot