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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

- the main one is making health drain an actual mechanic. Right now it doesn't feel like a resource like it should be, but rather an annoyance meant to neuter the character. You expend your health for mediocre damage and have no good way of gaining it back.
Strong agree my good chum, not only do I think the health drain is overly restrictive I just don't think it's interesting in any way to play around - on either side. I would really enjoy a cycle of seeing how making some moves heal more would look - a change I always thought about would be making normal grab or command grab heal more shadow health. As a long term Fukua player until recently, when I come against the character I just always take the throw and eat her awful damage of it and make her spend her meter, I think that kind of autopilot being the best option against a characters offence is super boring from both sides. Adding healing to the throws would change the risk reward a fair amount for the better.

My opinion of Fukua is that she still wouldn't be that good even with these healing changes, but I would really be motivated to play her even if I thought she was mid tier with them, as I think managing health should be more of a focus than it is at the moment.

Also why does her Level 3 Healing get effected by Scaling? It feels like an oversight and one that could definitely use being fixed.


The other idea I had in relation to health drain would be to slightly increase it and make shadows stronger. I think shadows should get stronger the longer they're held. If they're held longer they give better scaling, do more damage, and increase their range. I personally think they should reach all the way up to fullscreen if held long enough. This will allow them to be used in neutral more frequently and make fukua more of a threat in nuetral in a unique way. Instead of being able to mostly ignoring darts, you would have to be scared of them because they could now convert into something more serious than a couple hundred damage
This however is extremely cap, if you don't think one of Fukua's key strengths is in her Neutral prowess maybe you are playing her wrong :) . This change would make her into more of a full Zoner which is not the intention behind her design. It could be fun? But I don't think it's Fukua. I'm fine with her place as a general all rounder, I just wish she was a slightly better one.
 
Strong agree my good chum, not only do I think the health drain is overly restrictive I just don't think it's interesting in any way to play around - on either side. I would really enjoy a cycle of seeing how making some moves heal more would look - a change I always thought about would be making normal grab or command grab heal more shadow health. As a long term Fukua player until recently, when I come against the character I just always take the throw and eat her awful damage of it and make her spend her meter, I think that kind of autopilot being the best option against a characters offence is super boring from both sides. Adding healing to the throws would change the risk reward a fair amount for the better.

My opinion of Fukua is that she still wouldn't be that good even with these healing changes, but I would really be motivated to play her even if I thought she was mid tier with them, as I think managing health should be more of a focus than it is at the moment.

Also why does her Level 3 Healing get effected by Scaling? It feels like an oversight and one that could definitely use being fixed.


This however is extremely cap, if you don't think one of Fukua's key strengths is in her Neutral prowess maybe you are playing her wrong :) . This change would make her into more of a full Zoner which is not the intention behind her design. It could be fun? But I don't think it's Fukua. I'm fine with her place as a general all rounder, I just wish she was a slightly better one.

I really like this idea but one thing I think would be interesting would be to allow her taunt to heal her shadow health (By a good amount not the minuscule amount we have now) I think it having to make choice when low on health to either heal yourself or set up shadows on incoming would be really cool.

Also perhaps make her level 5 heal 100% of shadow health when used because I have never seen that move used once in my entire life, I fell like adding that effect would give it some much needed use in Fukua’s kit
 
I really like this idea but one thing I think would be interesting would be to allow her taunt to heal her shadow health (By a good amount not the minuscule amount we have now) I think it having to make choice when low on health to either heal yourself or set up shadows on incoming would be really cool.
I actually really like this idea too and have thought about it a bunch of times, iirc you can route Taunt into your combos by using BFF after so it could actually be sick if it healed a good chunk. Thinking about taking your hit for full effect or spending bar to heal some is another nice aspect that would make playing Fukua feel more engaging.
 
On the topic of Fukua, I think life drain isn’t really her main issue rn. I think it can be much more interactive and the ideas above are cool, but her biggest problem in the meta is that she doesn’t have a niche. There’s better glues, better anchors, and better points. There’s not really a single thing I can think of where Fukua is the BEST option in any team building theories. Not to say she lacks synergy with other characters but there’s always something better.

I think a big reason a lot of the initial change requests to Fukua were met with so much pushback was because they were packaged with “Fukua is bottom 2 and it’s because of life
drain”.

Despite her lacking a niche, Fukua is never Bad in a situation just not the best. I would put her mid tier personally, maybe even upper mid tier. Plus people came out and ran the data and proved that health drain wasn’t really that big of a deal in matches (it does feel shitty though which in hindsight is probably more important) so it all just felt random and out of nowhere.

I think if you wanted Fukua to be better/have a stronger niche I would focus on maybe slightly buffing her assists and/or point value. Life drain feeling less bad should happen regardless.
 
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What Sage, Triv, and Sonic said about the current state of SG are completely spot on. There are bugs and characters right now that need to be ironed out or looked at for the sake of the game's health and future.

I'm curious, in regards to your overall concern about the ("season one") meta. What characters do you play and how does your experience of playing SG affect your viewpoint of the meta (and how that meta pertains to your characters currently)?
 
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L pinion being multi hit
Do not do this

As an L Pinion player, if you're gonna make any of 'em multihits, do it to an M Pinion

One of L Pinion's strengths is being a single hit, high damage assist with a lot of hit and blockstun


There's 2 ways to kill head loops

1. Make head bounce hits drag the opponent down

2. (The less acceptable answer) Make her crouching buttons hitboxes' taller
 
On the topic of Fukua, I think life drain isn’t really her main issue rn. I think it can be much more interactive and the ideas above are cool, but her biggest problem in the meta is that she doesn’t have a niche. There’s better glues, better anchors, and better points. There’s not really a single thing I can think of where Fukua is the BEST option in any team building theories. Not to say she lacks synergy with other characters but there’s always something better.

I think a big reason a lot of the initial change requests to Fukua were met with so much pushback was because they were packaged with “Fukua is bottom 2 and it’s because of life
drain”.

Despite her lacking a niche, Fukua is never Bad in a situation just not the best. I would put her mid tier personally, maybe even upper mid tier. Plus people came out and ran the data and proved that health drain wasn’t really that big of a deal in matches (it does feel shitty though which in hindsight is probably more important) so it all just felt random and out of nowhere.

I think if you wanted Fukua to be better/have a stronger niche I would focus on maybe slightly buffing her assists and/or point value. Life drain feeling less bad should happen regardless.
Strongly agree with this sentiment, it's a nice thing to have where she is always decent to slot on your team, but it feels kinda bad that she is never a best in slot pick. Coming from a place where I am keen to pick a team I feel can perform well in tournament consistently, Fukua has lost a lot of appeal for me. As MP said there are better enablers and better people to enable.

Her having a really good Matchup spread should make her appealing as an anchor, but aspects like her assists being pretty average for a lot of teams in combination with her spending life and needing a lot of hits to kill makes her feel bad in that spot. I think personally I would also like to see some of her assists get tuned up rather than point value but honestly I would be happy to see either.
 
I'm curious, in regards to your overall concern about the ("season one") meta. What characters do you play and how does your experience of playing SG affect your viewpoint of the meta (and how that meta pertains to your characters currently)?
I play Bella and feel like the current meta has shifted against her as of late. Also, I just want some quality of life changes to the character such as her hurtboxes and bugs being fixed. Hopefully once her issues get ironed out she'll stand out in the meta and there'll be players willing to pick her back up again. Also, I just want her jHP to hit overhead once again and that's all.
 
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I play Bella and feel like the current meta has shifted against her as of late. Also, I just want some quality of life changes to the character such as her hurtboxes and bugs being fixed. Hopefully once her issues get ironed out she'll stand out in the meta and there'll be players willing to pick her back up again. Also, I just want her jHP to hit overhead once again and that's all.


Huh? I'm no Bella player, but I don't think she has any issues beyond... having weaknesses in certain matchups that prevent her from getting in immediately?

I don't think she needs jHP overhead back, though: she doesn't need it. She already has IOH j2MP as a "gotcha!" tool, and jHP is now super gnarly for optimal counterhit damage.

I can understand the hurtbox stuff though -- she literally turns into a banana for air hitstun frames, along with that one knockdown frame teleporting her onto the ground. What other bugs does she have that're significant issues to her gameplay, though?

Isn't she like, a very common character represented in Top 8s everywhere, along with just having a ton of people that play her in general to great effect?
 
I agree except for Ms Fortune and Annies install, please nerf the cat for obvious reasons and star power is a super brainless win button
How is starpower a win button? The cost for even entering Star Power is a entire bar that could be easily be spent on a dhc or a better super, also keep in mind that your resources are being drained with each second that passes for a decent combo at best. Star Power is a problem not because its broken, its because it has been nerfed so much that its now even worth using, i bet that there are a lot of players who are picking Annie that dont even remember that she has a install because nobody uses due to the insane investment for a mediocre reward.
 
How is starpower a win button? The cost for even entering Star Power is a entire bar that could be easily be spent on a dhc or a better super, also keep in mind that your resources are being drained with each second that passes for a decent combo at best. Star Power is a problem not because its broken, its because it has been nerfed so much that its now even worth using, i bet that there are a lot of players who are picking Annie that dont even remember that she has a install because nobody uses due to the insane investment for a mediocre reward.
how is a mode where every one of your moves now shoots projectiles at varying angles so you can just start throwing shit out without much thought and be oppressive because it makes everything super plus and you have access to an air ok 22 motion reversal option not just a win mode? you literally cannot play footsies with star power annie and you also cannot reset her because she can mash 22 and not care about your crossup or air resets
 
Now that you mention it, I feel like she could be in a better spot in mid-Season 1 had she had her hurtboxes fixed. Also, you're right about her not needing her jHP to be an overhead. But yeah, she's pretty common in top 8 everywhere on teams thanks to her assists.

...Getting her hurtboxes fixed helps people hit her more consistently? The problem with her hurtboxes is her falling out of certain combos, not some kind of thing that might up her pickrate and change her performance.

What about the current meta has actually shifted against Bella? You haven't actually mentioned any of her "issues" or any reasons why she's actually in a bad spot.

Hopefully once her issues get ironed out she'll stand out in the meta and there'll be players willing to pick her back up again.
But yeah, she's pretty common in top 8 everywhere on teams thanks to her assists.

...Could you please commit to an opinion? It's honestly a little frustrating reading your posts since it sounds a lot like you're just echoing top player opinions and ideas. Please say something substantial?





How is starpower a win button? The cost for even entering Star Power is a entire bar that could be easily be spent on a dhc or a better super, also keep in mind that your resources are being drained with each second that passes for a decent combo at best. Star Power is a problem not because its broken, its because it has been nerfed so much that its now even worth using, i bet that there are a lot of players who are picking Annie that dont even remember that she has a install because nobody uses due to the insane investment for a mediocre reward.

Starpower is considered a win button for a couple reasons that I'm seeing:
- It makes your normals shoot out stars that deal chip, along with some of them having special properties such as launching directly upward (install 5HK)
- It makes neutral and footsies difficult since Annie gets to control a lot of space with the stars, and once she's in, she locks you down.
- If she somehow does get hit, she has access to a burst reversal (22KK)

Sure, it's no Pillar DHC, but it's less of a "kill you when I'm in" and more of a "I'm EVENTUALLY getting in and you're going to cry about it"
 
As someone that helped blueprint the design for fukua, the life draining just seems arbitrary in hindsight. It was set as a limit because I feared thst holding shadows would be too powerful, and it turns out it is not.

Just remove the draining all together and MAAAAAAYBE the TINIEST damage boost on the planet and shes perfect.

She definitely could use to be a cooler utility character as well.

Personally I would also give her grounded drill super true invulnerability so she has a good get off tool as well but that is just wishful thinking.
 
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how is a mode where every one of your moves now shoots projectiles at varying angles so you can just start throwing shit out without much thought and be oppressive because it makes everything super plus and you have access to an air ok 22 motion reversal option not just a win mode? you literally cannot play footsies with star power annie and you also cannot reset her because she can mash 22 and not care about your crossup or air rese
-The usage of meter of install is not something that you can just overlook, continous lose of meter is absurd even with teams with dedicated meter builders
-Just to enter Star Power and use 22k Reversal you lose 2 entire bars without counting the % lost in neutral and getting/doing combos
-The cost and reward of install is too high considering other options like Safe DHCs or Damage DHCs
-The stars gain on normals is a good trade but you still need to open your opponent, which if you are not, you are losing a lot of meter
-The powered normals are using a lot of meter when hitting
-You need a character with high meter build to use Star Power consistently and efficiently

i understand that the chip damage, star on normals and motionless reversal looks like a insane buff, but you need to consider the cost to use that, you can activate install, get hit, lose 3 bars, die and then you team is in a really disadvantageous with 0 meter and one less character. In my opinion, Star Power is not worth using due to the High Risk for a Reward tha could be achieved by far safer and simpler ways.
 
How is starpower a win button?
Starpower is most definitely a win button and currently the least fun thing to fight in the game IMO. This is because:

Playing footsies with installed Annie is ridiculously weighted in Annie's favor as the stars she shoots out can cover a huge portion of the screen, this makes playing footsies with her a nightmare and will win neutral for free 99% of the time when its activated. The Stars she throws out can also solve some of her poorer matchups, 5HK 2HP jHK jLK jMP 2HK and 2LP stars can all cover the space Painwheel wants to be in making that matchup very favorable when she's in install

Her pressure and offensive capabilities with install are insane, she can easily lock you down and good luck ever trying to get out of the corner when pressured by install Annie. She also deals chip comparable with Catheads due to the stars in install which make her nightmarish to fight when she has the health lead

She gains new properties on her moves, new mixups, and higher damage routes while in install which makes getting hit by Annie even more dangerous

She can tag out while in install and gain access to powered up assists like 6hp and 2hk and only loses meter while the assist is on screen

She gains a reversal burst that is immune to crossups as well as being incredibly easy to convert from

The cost for even entering Star Power is a entire bar that could be easily be spent on a dhc or a better super, also keep in mind that your resources are being drained with each second that passes for a decent combo at best. Star Power is a problem not because its broken, its because it has been nerfed so much that its now even worth using, i bet that there are a lot of players who are picking Annie that dont even remember that she has a install because nobody uses due to the insane investment for a mediocre reward.
Secondly this might be the greatest example of top tier privilege I've ever read. The other two installs in the game are catheads and Hatred Install and they both cost 2 bars to enter into (Robo det mode is 3 bars but I don't know enough about it to give an opinion so ill ignore it for this post)

Catheads forces you to block for a while but scales down your combo if you end up getting the hit with the head, this coupled with doubles lower dmg compared to Annie means that the consequence for getting hit isn't as bad. Catheads is also double's signiture move and what she is known for, it providing a safe DHC and the chance to hit was a big reason why people put double on their team.

Hatred Install is two bars and while insanely good for DHCing to finish a combo but grants you little to no benefits before you get a hit. It's on a very short timer that can be even shorter depending on the circumstances on when its used and its greatest benefit to your neutral is armor startup.

Just to recap,
-Starpower deals similar amount of chip to catheads on a locked down opponent
-Can easily lock down an opponent
-Gives new properties to some of her moves
-Make playing footsies with her a nightmare because of the projectiles
-Can cover area that makes matchups more manageable (PW)
-Gives you a reversal that is immune to crossups due to the 22 input
-Increase the damage of your routes on an already high damage character
-Can tag out and be used for powered up assists

If star power was on any character but a top tier it would be the centerpiece of their kit. The reason its not used as often is because its on Annie, a character who is already top tier without it. Its not mediocre by any means and its not a bad investment when compared to the other installs it literally does everything you could ever want, a lower tier characters would kill for a install with half the benefits
 
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Sage just used star power against pme and the stars beat robo armor and fiber assist lol and when pme put annie in blockstun sage mashed 22 burst looool
 
I deadass cannot believe I just read Annie buffs out of the gate. I agree that the nerfs to Double have lowered the competition with Annie, but current Annie has overshadowed more than just Double. Making characters catch up individually with their kits to Annie's well-rounded kit is nigh-impossible.

(I agree with point Pillar of Creation should function like it used to, with this said)

Also H Knuckle nerfs don't really justify the concerns with Annie DP assist? It's a godlike assist that could use some miniscule tweaking. Not looking to shoot it, just bring it around to the level of other DPs.


Fundamentally I don't know how this can change, or "why" outside of the fact that those characters happen to be able to do 2 long strings which make it look sluggish. I have to guess wrong like 5 times and I'm gaining meter at a decent clip? That's fine. It's just another reset, to me. It sucks when it's a character like Peacock who would happily force you to burst so your undizzy is gone and she's back to her normal gameplan.

You misunderstood what I mean by complete tool kits which is fine because I could have described it better. Double USED to be like Annie in the sense that her entire tool kit worked and was threatening, but now one super that used to be really good is a joke super and one special that used to be really punishing to get hit by is a DBFZ beam that nets you nothing a ton of the time. This is not hard to fix. Also I would agree about Annie overshadowing characters in the last build, but that's not the case anymore after pillar dhc changed.

Here's another example. If we look at Valentine we have a character with a complete tool kit that doesn't always work. Completing her toolkit can be as simple as making Valentines useless command grab give her a bypass afterwards, bypass actually not bugging out, back dash iad j.LP always staying same side, j.mp having more hitstun, EKG letting you pick the side the opponent ends up on ETC. When characters function to their max potential the game is better for it. Annie does this and players don't like this because its not the norm and it should be the norm.


As for her DP assist, it doesn't make sense to bring it down to other DP assists levels when they're not created equal to begin with. You have dp assists as weak as Fiber and dp assists as strong as Beat extend. You even have ones like L bomber that are invincible, horizontal and lockdown. Annie doesn't even have the best one out of all the dp assists so it doesn't make sense to me to ask for it to be toned down.

I mention knuckle because in the previous build people only complained about the blockstun on Annie's DP assist which did get toned down. Now all of a sudden its a problem again, but the truth is its a problem because its the one people pick the most, and the reason its picked the most is because her other useful assist got toned down in a way to make players not want to use it. Also players don't want to block and don't realize that Fortune is gonna iad j.lk off any DP assist anyways etc etc

As for the undizzy thing. Fortune + beam kills you in three air throws at max undizzy. Dying in 3 hits is not uncommon, but the entire reason why max undizzy makes your damage scale was to remove this from being possible. The fact that she is doing it off **AIR THROW** on top of max undizzy is not normal. The other characters do it in 4-5, and this assumes you take the throw every time. If you get burst baited you just straight up die. Then you do it again. You can have your 5 bars lol you're never gonna get to use it if you didn't build your team to have a safe alpha counter option.
 
I'm going to format this in reverse if that's ok. Also thanks for the response + clarification!
As for the undizzy thing. Fortune + beam kills you in three air throws at max undizzy. Dying in 3 hits is not uncommon, but the entire reason why max undizzy makes your damage scale was to remove this from being possible. The fact that she is doing it off **AIR THROW** on top of max undizzy is not normal. The other characters do it in 4-5, and this assumes you take the throw every time. If you get burst baited you just straight up die. Then you do it again. You can have your 5 bars lol you're never gonna get to use it if you didn't build your team to have a safe alpha counter option.

I wholeheartedly agree that Fortune's damage off of air throw is completely busted. Something like advancing her headless throws by a stage seems like a totally justified change, even if it affects ground throw damage. I apologize for not discussing Fortune's specifically; with the four characters listed in your post about Max Undizzy, I interpreted the post as in all characters. That's on me. I personally do not see anything wrong between burst bait and reset several times in a row, but that comes down to preference. I'm not against a good solution- just that I personally don't see that as a dilemma.
You misunderstood what I mean by complete tool kits which is fine because I could have described it better. . .

. . . If we look at Valentine we have a character with a complete tool kit that doesn't always work. Completing her toolkit can be as simple as making Valentines useless command grab give her a bypass afterwards, bypass actually not bugging out, back dash iad j.LP always staying same side, j.mp having more hitstun, EKG letting you pick the side the opponent ends up on ETC. When characters function to their max potential the game is better for it. Annie does this and players don't like this because its not the norm and it should be the norm.

Preface: I hope I am not reading too deep into Val as an example. I think there is a good point here, but it's not the entire reasoning behind Annie frustrations.
I wholeheartedly agree that Bypass is one of the most pressing issues in the game currently. My reservations about her as an example are: These are mostly sensible changes on an already good character who has her niche and gameplan. She's not fighting for her place among the balance discussion. There are more pressing issues for character balance and move viability than Mort Drop. Valentine (a specialist) has no competition with Annie (a generalist) for this reason- the issues of a character's "complete tool kit" are not necessarily the underlying reasons some characters are less preferred than Annie. It's not just Annie's move consistency.

As for her DP assist, it doesn't make sense to bring it down to other DP assists levels when they're not created equal to begin with. You have dp assists as weak as Fiber and dp assists as strong as Beat extend. You even have ones like L bomber that are invincible, horizontal and lockdown. Annie doesn't even have the best one out of all the dp assists so it doesn't make sense to me to ask for it to be toned down.

I mention knuckle because in the previous build people only complained about the blockstun on Annie's DP assist which did get toned down. Now all of a sudden its a problem again, but the truth is its a problem because its the one people pick the most, and the reason its picked the most is because her other useful assist got toned down in a way to make players not want to use it. Also players don't want to block and don't realize that Fortune is gonna iad j.lk off any DP assist anyways etc etc

I agree that not all DP assists are the same. And I think that it's important there are better and worse ones on different characters. (A strong point like Fortune having a less-than-ideal but ok DP assist is fine, a strong Anchor like Band with all of his weaknesses should have a strong DP). Blockstop and startup both mirror Updo, but Destruction Pillar both gives sensational corner carry, much easier OTG pickup, bigger than Updo, AND 200 more damage. On top of the utility, damage, neutral, and mix Annie possesses as a character next to a character like Filia.

I'd be more than happy to see people chime in and agree that Knuckle's assist nerfs were too excessive. That move was (and is, imo) strong.
You misunderstood what I mean by complete tool kits which is fine because I could have described it better. Double USED to be like Annie in the sense that her entire tool kit worked and was threatening, but now one super that used to be really good is a joke super and one special that used to be really punishing to get hit by is a DBFZ beam that nets you nothing a ton of the time. This is not hard to fix. Also I would agree about Annie overshadowing characters in the last build, but that's not the case anymore after pillar dhc changed.

I agree about Double. (M Bomber disjoint my beloved, come back).
 
The fact Fortune can do it in 3 is just her being way better than everyone else, but the others doing it in 4-5 throws via the same loop is just max undizzy failing to do its job. The reason the mechanic was put in the first place is because half of the cast could two touch you at max undizzy with proper team building. The meter build you give the opponent and lower damage were supposed to make players want to back off or risk huge consequences in the future but in the current build this doesn't happen with this loop.

You have to at some point seen Cloud play and seen him have games where he actually does execute Vals gameplan. Now imagine if Cloud never had to worry about his iad mix up whiffing past someone, or Bypass dropping in top 8, or getting good reward for every tool he has. To me that's Valentine having her complete tool kit, the ability to run her gameplan without having to worry about whether or not she'll cooperate with you. That character is at the power level of Annie who's tool kit works for what she is trying to do. When a character feels like this people will play what they like. (don't remember if I mentioned it but this is Annie without Install strength btw)

Pillar is not a much easier otg pick up lol this is character dependent. Fortune and Robo happen to be fast, unlucky. Also using Filia for a comparison with Annie is... weird. Annie is stronger, but not THAT much stronger. idk this example didn't hold for me or make me reconsider Annie's DP assist lol
 
Think it’s worth pointing out too with the comparison to Filia and Annie in terms of mixup, Filia is absolutely far superior to Annie in that field from the couple posts above.

Filia looks at you funny and you take a 5 way mixup while Annie low throws you. Post hit mix could be argued.
 
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Quick post I wasn't gonna respond but just to wrap things up. It's totally fine that we see things differently-I'm not trying to drag you to one side, and your experiences are what shape your opinion.

For the record I was wary of roping Filia into this because I understood that there would be different perceptions of her use. To be clear I think Val and Filia vie for 5-6th best. (Robo stocks pushed them down one peg each)

I'm not against the airdash button fixes. It was the Mort Drop specifically that bothered me. She has such good mix already-especially because that'd specifically be improved layers in lag vial when the entire lag vial situation is so beyond stacked in her favour considering it doesn't even go away when you burst it/non-super it.


I agree that Fortune and Robo are fast and exploit DP extremely well. I also just think several other characters can get outstanding conversions with it too. Those were a handful of advantages for Pillar, not just one or two singular advantages. If I can't convince you though, that's that.

@ Sonic, pre-hit is better for sure, but also I've seen so much Annie high/low with iad buttons off of assists like Beam, Beat Extend, etc. And then she has install. You'd have to actually throw out the stars gimmick. Annie also can play more patient neutral better than Filia, so she can react to get the hit (2LP) so pre-hit doesn't need to be equal.

2 things, if possible.

Why should Knuckle get reverts when it outclasses other lockdown assists, especially for zoners. You can't crouch it like Bomber. It gets a wallsplat for conversions. Sorry, I haven't been able to pull the game up and verify the blockstun but if someone else can back me up about it relative to other assists with respective rewards, that'd be appreciated.

Also I'm not sure how to break the loop of undizzy. I remember when you uploaded the video regarding Beo/Excelle/Band with the 2nd character 2 touch at max undizzy. It seems like if you want to be able to escape and you dislike gold burst (prior comment?) then you'd let them out scot free somehow which seems both very bad for pacing or just going to leave them stuck in the corner and then mixed regardless (combo drops into kd after 340 undizzy or something). If you had an idea that salvages this currently, I'm all ears. I think this would heavily affect solos too, so if you have that in mind as well.
 
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Double-post sorry.

Getting my intentions down cleanly.

This isn't about Filia. This is about value/team composition, which ends up being part of the balance discussion. When I see Annie assists, and then my meter gain character knowing that I'm able to cash out with 2 touch kill/safe dhc/install, have the ability to slow down the pace of the match OR go in.

And then I look at who else I can add in, such as Filia who easily has one of the best assists in the game in Hairball (I think she has good comeback potential with bar and strong mental damage fwiw), I see more risk than Annie. I feel this way with Fukua. To an extent I feel this way with Cerebella. You can give them little tools (overhead clap, larger percentage of health regain), but you are not negating the risk/matching the safeties.

So with this said, I'm not out for blood against Annie DP assist. I want strong assist options. I'm glad she has a good DP. But these minor advantages add up to the big picture when landing on a character to supplement my game.


And to double down on solos undizzy thing, I'm sure you get where I'm coming from because you picked Fortune (+Squigly) vs solo Filia.
 
You misunderstood what I mean by complete tool kits which is fine because I could have described it better. Double USED to be like Annie in the sense that her entire tool kit worked and was threatening, but now one super that used to be really good is a joke super and one special that used to be really punishing to get hit by is a DBFZ beam that nets you nothing a ton of the time.
I'm guessing the special and super you are referring to are luger and catheads respectively

- I want L luger back as well but saying this change made her kit not work is an exaggeration, the pre Annie Double and the post Annie double are almost the same. While not being able to convert as far from L luger is most definitely a nerf and one I would like to see reverted not being able to convert max range off luger does not kill this character

-If the super you are referring to is catheads then I am incredibly perplexed. Catheads even post nerf is absolutely a great super especially after it was partially reverted, it provides the best safe DHC in the game still even though we have shifted away from the safe DHC meta and towards a two touch meta.

Double before Annie and post Annie are almost the exact same character, she has had 2 changes since Annie came out: L luger nerf and Catheads DHC nerf which was partially reverted.
Also I would agree about Annie overshadowing characters in the last build, but that's not the case anymore after pillar dhc changed.
While I get the sentiment I still disagree. I would argue that Annie still overshadows members of the cast even today, one example of this I would like to point to is double

While Annie and Double have different playstyles they both are generalist characters who are able to do many things well but typically aren't the best in any given area. They are both typically seen off point and used to support the team, however Annie has much better assists than double does and is able to provide similar utility to the team

-Annie has a better version of bomber than knuckle(Forward moving lockdown assists that travel in the same arc), it is unable to be ducked like bomber can and still fullscreen wallsplat you. Even after the nerfs these assists are still insanely good, especially for zoners where sending you fullscreen and wallsplatting is a godsend. Its also much easier to convert off a stray H knuckle assist than H bomber

-Annie also a arguably better DP assist than Double. While it does cover a good amount of horizontal space and is great for getting happy birthdays I still wouldn't consider it to be in the top tier of DP assists. Annie DP on the other hand covers an insane amount of vertical space as well as a little bit of horizontal space, it's single hit so it scales less than bomber, It launches opponents very far horizontally and vertically which makes it easy to pick up off of for most characters, providing great corner carry, as well as having more hitstun than L bomber. I would also like to mention that in the scenario where Annie's DP gets a happy birthday the horizontal carry DP provides makes the route to the corner for a snap much easier and doesn't require more than a LMH Snap past midscreen

-Annie's meteor strike and pillar of creation are great for picking up a combo after a DHC just like Double's puddle, however Annie is a much higher damage character so when choosing a character with that utility in mind most people will gravitate towards Annie.

-Annie also has access to other assists double doesn't, like Crescent cut or her installed 6hp and 2hk.

-Her install 2hk is particularly of note because it has high blockstun and hits low making for a very potent low hitting lockdown sweep assist with good chip that is easy to convert off without even using otg which is gives competition for Doubles last good assist in Slide, which is also a low hitting sweep with good blockstun but uses OTG at the cost of its greater range and no meter requirement. Just for comparison Doubles Slide does 130 chip and 1300 on hit while install 2hk does 273 chip 3177 on hit, it costs about 20% of a bar per use but since its a more niche assist and costs meter you can disagree with this comparison but I think its worth bringing up

-Doubles main utility as a character is her ability to safely DHC with catheads and potentially get a mixup afterwards, Annie however also has a safe DHC in gravity Slingshot for 1 extra bar that also provides an easy way to mixup after it

-The main thing Double has that Annie lacks is a good damage level 3 for DHC which can be routed around for lower damage characters by frontloading Damage and moving to the corner and then DHCing to Annie for similar results in damage.

Double was considered a top 3 character for 4 years until Annie came out where she received two nerfs to Luger and Catheads she ends up sliding down most peoples tier lists. While I'm strongly in favor of L Luger getting reverted those two changes seem too minor to justify her falling out of relevance by themselves. Instead I would argue the main reason Double has fallen out of meta relevance is Annie, which is why most Double players I see are double loyalists who love the character and have played them for years. In fact the only non Annie players at the last CEO top 8 were Turvon and Gelato (Excluding Bonanze who ran both characters and swapped between them for his mid) who have been playing double for years beforehand.

As for her DP assist, it doesn't make sense to bring it down to other DP assists levels when they're not created equal to begin with. You have dp assists as weak as Fiber and dp assists as strong as Beat extend. You even have ones like L bomber that are invincible, horizontal and lockdown. Annie doesn't even have the best one out of all the dp assists so it doesn't make sense to me to ask for it to be toned down.
While not all DP assists are created equal I think its very important to consider who those DP assists are attached to. Updo and Fiber are both attached to characters are typically points. I discussed L bomber above but I would consider Annie's DP superior to double's DP due to the large vertical area it covers (Very useful for catching people who call assist + jump for an overhead setup), its corner carry, and better scaling. IMO the best DP assist is between Beat extend and Annies H DP, while beat extend is incredible and provides a ton of utility it still does suffer from poorer scaling than Annie's H HP which covers far more vertical distance and has better corner carry. While one could go for one side or the other I think its important to remember that Band is THE assist character and is almost always run anchor because you always want to use his assists without having to actually play band, its his greatest strength and his large size lets him be bullied on point to compensate. Annie however is a generalist character who is good at everything while having a DP better than the other generalist and is vying for the best DP assist in the game with the Assist character.
Pillar is not a much easier otg pick up lol this is character dependent. Fortune and Robo happen to be fast, unlucky.
I would also like to object to this statement, I did a little bit of testing and way able to find that a massive chunk of the cast is able to pick up OTG pretty easily including some of the slower characters.

Here's another example. If we look at Valentine we have a character with a complete tool kit that doesn't always work. Completing her toolkit can be as simple as making Valentines useless command grab give her a bypass afterwards, bypass actually not bugging out, back dash iad j.LP always staying same side, j.mp having more hitstun, EKG letting you pick the side the opponent ends up on ETC. When characters function to their max potential the game is better for it. Annie does this and players don't like this because its not the norm and it should be the norm.
I should preface this by saying I'm 100% in favor of Val being made more consistent. I think its a crime that a tool as important as bypass is notorious for just not working and would love to see it addressed posthaste. However some of the other suggestions you made her strike me as a bit questionable, specifically regarding her command grab. I think val is an already good character (when her jank gets fixed) who really isn't struggling to find a niche in the meta. She specializes in a specific playstyle and does it well as opposed to Annie who is designed to be a generalist character who is able to fit on almost every team, while it would be nice if her command grab was better its not really a pressing issue for her and even if it was buffed I don't think it would see that much more use.


Finally I would like to inquire as to what a complete tool kit means? If you mean characters like Painwheel and Val having less jank or characters like filia getting QoL changes/buffs that make it so her strings dont drop when you are off by a couple of centimeters I'm all for it.
However if a completed kit means to make characters more generalized like Annie I would like to object. Characters don't have to be good at everything to be fun, in fact the characters I hear called "Boring" the most are generalists like Double and Annie. Weaknesses and the absence of tools in a characters kit can do just as much to define them as their strengths do
 
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Just wanted to add a bit to the double discussion:

Lvl 5 is also a meme right now with its damage, and while it's been this way for years, with the way other characters spend meter and the typical power of lvl 5's in this game, with most often lvl 3 is consistently better in every way besides maybe occasionally getting a cheap (yet also ridiculously expensive) Air-OK crossup beating reversal, I wonder if it could get a reversion of its damage in some way. I know that some corner combos SOMETIMES slightly better damage from it but it hardly justifies the cost. Now i dunno if I mean TOD off grab levels like it used to be (even though it probably would still be fine), but having the support character that is supposed to spend meter really well (controlling neutral, damage, countering stuff at fullscreen) have le funny moyai super is rather unfortunate given the atrocities the other generalist character can manage with 5 bar. (Also maybe have the projectiles stay too perhaps :) ??????)

Though I believe there might be some other interesting experiments to be made with Double with what she had pre-2E+, I reckon that L gun, catheads, maybe disjoints, and maybe Lvl 5 are definitely enough discussion regarding her balance.

EDIT: Wanted to also explore some other interesting "Annie outclasses Double" moments:
-Crescent being a better blockstring ender than Gun (which is around -4) that allows Annie to attempt a mixup afterwards.
-Annie having a dedicated low-profiling anti air button while Double has to attempt a gun (with a deadzone) or maybe a lucky Band 5LP level jab
-Annie having arguably better low throw than Double especially given the longer throw range.
-Meteor Strike being better than Car at beating various fake/PBGC-able pressure due to it being faster, with the ability to even convert afterwards near corner. While it doesn't share the characteristic of invulning through near everything, this is still worth noting.

While there are definitely examples of Double having stronger neutral tools than Annie, these minor things end up stacking up alongside the generally better utility and damage to make Annie just far more appealing generalist.
 
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-If the super you are referring to is catheads then I am incredibly perplexed. Catheads even post nerf is absolutely a great super especially after it was partially reverted, it provides the best safe DHC in the game still even though we have shifted away from the safe DHC meta and towards a two touch meta.

-Annie also a arguably better DP assist than Double. While it does cover a good amount of horizontal space and is great for getting happy birthdays I still wouldn't consider it to be in the top tier of DP assists. Annie DP on the other hand covers an insane amount of vertical space as well as a little bit of horizontal space, it has more blockstun than bomber (13 for L bomber 16 for Annie DP), It's single hit so it scales less than bomber, It launches opponents very far horizontally and vertically which makes it easy to pick up off of for most characters, providing great corner carry, as well as having more hitstun than L bomber. I would also like to mention that in the scenario where Annie's DP gets a happy birthday the horizontal carry DP provides makes the route to the corner for a snap much easier and doesn't require more than a LMH Snap past midscreen

-Annie's meteor strike and pillar of creation are great for picking up a combo after a DHC just like Double's puddle, however Annie is a much higher damage character so when choosing a character with that utility in mind most people will gravitate towards Annie.

-Annie also has access to other assists double doesn't, like Crescent cut or her installed 6hp and 2hk.
-Her install 2hk is particularly of note because it has high blockstun and hits low making for a very potent low hitting lockdown sweep assist with good chip that is easy to convert off without even using otg which is gives competition for Doubles last good assist in Slide, which is also a low hitting sweep with good blockstun but uses OTG at the cost of its greater range and no meter requirement. Just for comparison Doubles Slide does 130 chip and 1300 on hit while install 2hk does 273 chip 3177 on hit, it costs about 20% of a bar per use but since its a more niche assist and costs meter you can disagree with this comparison but I think its worth bringing up
Dont rly know how to format forum things as quotes so im just going to edit the quote with the paragraphs i have a problem with in order.

1. Sage is referring to double lvl 5 as the joke super I believe, not catheads

2. Where did you get these blockstun numbers? from my testing frame by frame, annie dp has 25 frames of blockstun as assist and l bomber has 45. Also something to note is you can land cancel annie dp while l bomber drags you to the ground. Annie's is def better overall but its not the direct upgrade your making it out to be. The lockdown + dp combo is pretty strong if anything is a direct upgrade its h beat.

3. This is mostly incorrect, double has higher damage then annie*, puddle dhc does more damage then pillar, annie post pillar takes a hit if you used otg(cant route into 2hp at all and jmk jhp restand is difficult when you cant 2hp aftewards), doubles doesnt, in fact her optimals are jhk loops which are otgless. This is especially relevant because most characters use otg if theyre frontloading damage before a dhc. In addition, if your character is able to setup the early cancel into puddle 5hp it does a LOT more then pillar midscreen. Arm dhc in the corner does do more though, and double doesn't really get much out of being in the corner.

4. 2hk is literally a meme assist idk why you even mentioned it. To even begin to use this assist you have to have annie use install (requires 2 bars to even activate so you have to find a way to get to that amount first) and tag in another character by either somehow finding space in neutral or getting a hit. A lot of setup for what is essentially a high damage filia 2mk. This assist is never run for a good reason but this comparison to cilia slide is strange because you use c slide for conversions, the low and the nice angle it sends at. Its damage and chip(???) is not the main purpose and not worth the setup that annie 2hk requires before use. Also not sure what you mean by using OTG

Overall I think its fine that double gets her luger back and it seems to be overall a pretty unnecessary change maybe some power to level 5 as well. I do think the annie= better double is a bit of an exaggeration though. Overall annie is a better character right now but there are enough things that double does better then annie

I think the only change annie needs is a complete rework to install. Rn the mode just doesn't feel very fun to use and like sage said its not very consistent either. Just not a great time for either player but I also dont really have great ideas on how to change it sadly.
Maybe the her dp could use some dmg nerfs as assist but I wouldn't like to see the hitbox being touched, right now its one of the best anti fortune tools in the game and if it got nerfed to be unusable I think it would make fortune even better then she already is.


*This is true in the case of 2lk and grab starters and post dhc combos, however a in a post reset scenario most of the time annie will be reseting with a stage 1 jhp where as double will more likely be doing a 5lp or 2lk. This extra 875 dmg can make annie do more in a post reset scenario but we werent talking about it so i didnt mention it.
 
Overall I think its fine that double gets her luger back and it seems to be overall a pretty unnecessary change maybe some power to level 5 as well. I do think the annie= better double is a bit of an exaggeration though. Overall annie is a better character right now but there are enough things that double does better then annie
100% agreed. I don't mean to be reductive and imply Annie is just BETTER double, since things like the differences between Crescent Neutral and Gun neutral, alongside dealing with different grounded and aerial movement tools, makes them distinct in playstyle in a very satisfying way.

However, when there are two team support generalists whose main weakness is having linear offense, one having so many advantages over the other in that offense AND support isn't right. Right now I feel like there are things double situationally does better than Annie, when I feel like there should be a more distinct edge Double has over Annie and vice versa to make people have to think what kind of things they want to play with and have on their team.
 
1. Sage is referring to double lvl 5 as the joke super I believe, not catheads
This is something I didn't consider as Sage listed 2 problems with Double that result in her losing a complete tool kit: A special that didn't net as much reward and a super that was once good that has now become a joke.

The special is clearly Luger but the super I assumed to be catheads as it was a core part of doubles kit that was nerfed when Annie was released.
I was lead train of thought because in Second Encore + (the version that existed from 2017-2021) Double was almost universally seen as a top 3 character and the opinion/relevance of Double has only really shifted post Annie release to my recollection, which lead me to believe the complaints he had about Double were recent changes. If he is referring to megalith I apologize for misinterpreting him

However the special is he was referring to is Megalith then that raises a lot of questions in my mind. Firstly the Megalith change happened over half a decade ago (2017 IIRC). She already has access to a highly damaging level 3 in terms of cashing out meter so I don't think this change was a killing blow to her kit. Even in that patch I think the bomber disjoint nerf did more to hurt her than the level 5 change did.
(Not to say you cant argue we should revert level 5 I just think it's low on the "Changes that would fix Double's kit" list)

2. Where did you get these blockstun numbers? from my testing frame by frame, annie dp has 25 frames of blockstun as assist and l bomber has 45.
I quickly skimmed the wiki for those numbers but since you tested it frame by frame I'm going to assume you are right and I read the wrong box somewhere. I apologize and will edit that section of my post after I finish writing this.
Annie's is def better overall but its not the direct upgrade your making it out to be. The lockdown + dp combo is pretty strong if anything is a direct upgrade its h beat.
I actually edited this section because the first time I thought it sounded like I was downplaying too much and added emphasis to L bombers horizontal movement and how good it is for happy birthdays. I probably should have made more changes to make sure that point came across more clearly.
I don't think its a direct upgrade to bomber due to it being a vertical DP as opposed to a horizontal one but I definitely think its the better DP assist (Not to downplay L bomber I still think its the third best DP assist, I think its a tier down from Beat and Annie DP)

3. This is mostly incorrect, double has higher damage then annie*, puddle dhc does more damage then pillar, annie post pillar takes a hit if you used otg(cant route into 2hp at all and jmk jhp restand is difficult when you cant 2hp aftewards), doubles doesnt, in fact her optimals are jhk loops which are otgless. This is especially relevant because most characters use otg if theyre frontloading damage before a dhc. In addition, if your character is able to setup the early cancel into puddle 5hp it does a LOT more then pillar midscreen. Arm dhc in the corner does do more though, and double doesn't really get much out of being in the corner.
I should have clarified but I when testing the damage I compared puddle and arm DHC (Since most Annies I saw just swapped from doing midscreen pillar to corner arm when it was nerfed) with Beo who has good enough corner carry to where I was able to reach or be near the corner when I DHCed starting at almost every position in the game. Through that I found that Annie was able to deal a lot more damage than Double in the corner.
You are right though I did a little more testing and midscreen Double seem to get more damage (since pillar was nerfed and arm doesn't convert midscreen), I apoligize for not testing both midscreen and corner I assumed in most scenarios those planning to continue their combo as Annie would have routed to reach near the corner to pick up with arm.

4. 2hk is literally a meme assist idk why you even mentioned it. To even begin to use this assist you have to have annie use install (requires 2 bars to even activate so you have to find a way to get to that amount first) and tag in another character by either somehow finding space in neutral or getting a hit. A lot of setup for what is essentially a high damage filia 2mk. This assist is never run for a good reason but this comparison to cilia slide is strange because you use c slide for conversions, the low and the nice angle it sends at. Its damage and chip(???) is not the main purpose and not worth the setup that annie 2hk requires before use. Also not sure what you mean by using OTG

This was I admit the shakiest of my comparisons but I thought it was worth bringing up. I knew the comparison was a bit of a reach so I separated it from the section about assists and put this disclaimer right at the the end.
but since its a more niche assist and costs meter you can disagree with this comparison but I think its worth bringing up
While you can most definitely disagree and even completely dismiss this particular comparison and I think my point of "Double and Annie share a lot of the same assists and teambuilding utility which makes it hard for Double to stand out" still stands

Overall I think its fine that double gets her luger back and it seems to be overall a pretty unnecessary change maybe some power to level 5 as well. I do think the annie= better double is a bit of an exaggeration though. Overall annie is a better character right now but there are enough things that double does better then annie

My point was less Annie=Double's direct upgrade and more that Annie steps on Doubles toes a lot in terms of teambuilding which makes it difficult for Double to stand out sometimes. I said this because Annie shares a lot of the same Assists, Weaknesses (Linear offence with mostly low throw mix before a hit), A safe DHC that allows for mixups afterwards, A 1 bar super that allows one to pick up after DHC, etc. I thought people might misinterpret what I was saying so I added:
While Annie and Double have different playstyles they both are generalist characters who are able to do many things well but typically aren't the best in any given area

I hope that clarifies my positions
 
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needs to be said about how much I appreciate how civil and informative the discussion has been the past few pages.

Very interesting perspectives all around and very insightful.
 
EDIT: Wanted to also explore some other interesting "Annie outclasses Double" moments:
-Crescent being a better blockstring ender than Gun (which is around -4) that allows Annie to attempt a mixup afterwards.
-Annie having a dedicated low-profiling anti air button while Double has to attempt a gun (with a deadzone) or maybe a lucky Band 5LP level jab
-Annie having arguably better low throw than Double especially given the longer throw range.
-Meteor Strike being better than Car at beating various fake/PBGC-able pressure due to it being faster, with the ability to even convert afterwards near corner. While it doesn't share the characteristic of invulning through near everything, this is still worth noting.
Id like to add a few more moments to the list:
-Annie's pre-hit mix is better than Double IMO. Firstly as nope describes she has a longer throw range but she also gains access to an install which makes her pressure much better and she gets access both a command overhead and a standing low. The command overhead in particular is interesting to me as while it is reactable it can be made safe on block by using l knuckle, While I've seen many discount this move because of its reactable nature I think the ability for it to be made safe makes it worth bringing up. Annie also has access to a great air crossup in j.hp which is great for getting in on opponents

-Annie's DP Covers a wide amount of vertical distance which is something Double lacks. L bomber and LV3 both whiff on aerial opponents and car often gives airborne opponents time to block depending on screen position.

-Annie has tools that let her play the game more patiently than Double, as nope mentioned she has a great anti air in 2lp which allows her to deal with airborne opponents with much less commitment than Double can. She also has access to a very fast a2a in j.lk (8 frames) while doubles great air to airs are often slower like j.mk(12 frames), j.hk(13 frames), and j.hp(17 frames). Because of H crescent's lower speed Annie is able to use her projectile to cover her while she moves which is something luger cannot do.

-While both of these characters are described as having weak pre-hit mix, Annie's install almost guarantees that you will get in with its insane neutral control, pressure, enough multihit to break armor, and a mental stack high enough that her command overhead becomes incredibly deadly. (Most people seem to be in favor of an complete install rework but until then this point stands)

-Annie does not suffer from the same tall hurtbox that Double does and instead benefits from an advantageous small hurtbox

-Annie's greater damage means often times I don't have to worry about routing for undizzy drain with mixups like j.hk fleshstep to two touch but can often just do a regular reset and have more than enough damage to kill
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I don't mean to be reductive and imply Annie is just BETTER double, since things like the differences between Crescent Neutral and Gun neutral, alongside dealing with different grounded and aerial movement tools, makes them distinct in playstyle in a very satisfying way.
However, when there are two team support generalists whose main weakness is having linear offense, one having so many advantages over the other in that offense AND support isn't right. Right now I feel like there are things double situationally does better than Annie, when I feel like there should be a more distinct edge Double has over Annie and vice versa to make people have to think what kind of things they want to play with and have on their team.
I would like to agree with nope here. I think my main issue with Double is that both Annie and Double provide similar utility to the team with Annie providing a lot of little advantages over double which make it much harder for Double to stand out.

Nine times out of ten when I personally elect not to put Double on one of my teams its not a situation where I would pick her if she still had bomber disjoint, safe puddle, old catheads, old L Luger(Revert pls), or even old LV5 but rather a situation where I would pick Double but Annie provides the same utility I'm looking for. While there are still scenarios where Double has an advantage (DHC midscreen combo damage , Puddle into Tag + taunt with Beo, Side switching for Band lv3 with car, etc) they can sometimes feel few and far between.

I would however advise against a total revert of Double's old level 5, I think a damage increase or making it more consistent would be fine but old Megalith was specifically nerfed because its damage was much higher than the other level 5's and it could kill 3v2. While Level 5s are typically only seen once a game I think the damage on it was still way too high. Double was considered to be a top tier without it (Pre Annie) and I think it would be better the experiment with smaller things like L luger and Bomber disjoint reversions before considering reverting bigger things like Megalith

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https://wiki.gbl.gg/w/Skullgirls/Patch_Notes#Double_4 Patch notes regarding Doubles level 5 for those who would like to learn more since this patch is half a decade old at this point


TLDR: I think Doubles main issue is that Annie shares a lot of the same assists and teambuilding utility which makes it hard for Double to stand out especially in the current meta where Annie is already very strong. I think the best way to make Double stand out in the current meta is to differentiate Annie and Double so there are more scenarios where either one has an edge over the other in terms of team utility. I also don't think its a good idea to completely revert Lv5 back to its old self
 
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I wanna be fair here and play a bit of devil's advocate. I purposely omitted some things from my list because I didn't consider them to be that much of a disparity between Double and Annie.
Id like to add a few more moments to the list:
-Annie's pre-hit mix is better than Double IMO. Firstly as nope describes she has a longer throw range but she also gains access to an install which makes her pressure much better and she gets access both a command overhead and a standing low. The command overhead in particular is interesting to me as while it is reactable it can be made safe on block by using l knuckle, While I've seen many discount this move because of its reactable nature I think the ability for it to be made safe makes it worth bringing up.
6HP iirc is really hard to confirm midscreen without help or resources, making it only really often used at or near corner as there isn't much risk of a drop involved (doesn't discount that is still a strong option imo). The possibly safe overhead 6HP is also comparable to a TK barrel/TK Fridge -> puddle. However, double not only telegraphs it with a jump, but requires a bar to make it even close to safe.

Annie also has access to a great air crossup in j.hp which is great for getting in on opponents
Double has access to Flesh Steps left-rights with assists. This can even be combined with certain overhead assists to make it a left-right high low, or DP assists to make them entirely safe. Both characters have crossup options that are great openers in their own ways.

While it is worth noting that Annie can just do it on her own (very intimidating since both air backdash juke and air forward dash jHP both convert), most times it is so telegraphed that Annie often needs an assist to set it up in the first place.
-Annie does not suffer from the same tall hurtbox that Double does and instead benefits from an advantageous small hurtbox
I didn't want to bring up the weight and hurtbox stuff since there is drawbacks to being small and light. There are many, MANY light specific combos and mixups that grant more damage (you'll get far more fortune 2LK's on annie than double) while Double really easily slips out of the same situations, requiring setups that account for just how heavy she is. The taller hurtbox, while well known to get her clipped more often, also makes her harder to crossup standing in neutral. While I wish Annie didn't constantly slip out of air combos only to hit me with helmbreaker (which also shrinks her hurtbox), I don't consider these things to be outclassing.
 
I think all of what you brought up in your response is very fair, however I would still like to clarify my positions and reasons for including what I did a little bit more.

I wanna be fair here and play a bit of devil's advocate. I purposely omitted some things from my list because I didn't consider them to be that much of a disparity between Double and Annie.
I would like to start out by saying that this approach is makes a lot of sense. However in my eyes a lot of what makes Annie more enticing to pick over Double are minor differences that add up to make her the more favorable option which is why I included them.

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6HP iirc is really hard to confirm midscreen without help or resources, making it only really often used at or near corner as there isn't much risk of a drop involved (doesn't discount that is still a strong option imo).
A big reason I included 6HP in this section was specifically because of how useful it can be in the corner. While Double is able to apply pressure well in the corner she also loses access to one of her most powerful mix-ups in flesh step + assist while an opponent has a their back to the wall. In situations like that a command overhead that can be made safe is absolutely an advantageous thing to have.
The possibly safe overhead 6HP is also comparable to a TK barrel/TK Fridge -> puddle. However, double not only telegraphs it with a jump, but requires a bar to make it even close to safe.
For the reasons you listed above I would consider the command overhead to be the preferable option over the jump telegraphed and less safe TK item crash.
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Double has access to Flesh Steps left-rights with assists. This can even be combined with certain overhead assists to make it a left-right high low, or DP assists to make them entirely safe. Both characters have crossup options that are great openers in their own ways.

While it is worth noting that Annie can just do it on her own (very intimidating since both air backdash juke and air forward dash jHP both convert), most times it is so telegraphed that Annie often needs an assist to set it up in the first place.
The main reason I brought this up was because of how Annie can do it without an assist while Double needs an assist to do Flesh Step + Assist. I would also argue that Annie's crossup J.HP being slightly harder to block because of the jukes using her airdash as well as the J.HP being more ambiguous (though this is typically seen more in resets rather than an opener mix-up) as sometimes it can be very hard to tell what side it hit on while flesh step is always a crossup.
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I didn't want to bring up the weight and hurtbox stuff since there is drawbacks to being small and light. There are many, MANY light specific combos and mixups that grant more damage (you'll get far more fortune 2LK's on annie than double) while Double really easily slips out of the same situations, requiring setups that account for just how heavy she is. The taller hurtbox, while well known to get her clipped more often, also makes her harder to crossup standing in neutral. While I wish Annie didn't constantly slip out of air combos only to hit me with helmbreaker (which also shrinks her hurtbox), I don't consider these things to be outclassing.
This I will absolutely concede on, I was thinking about advantages a small hurtbox gives you and didn't consider the downsides as much. In hindsight this should have been something I omitted when comparing these characters.
 
Something I would like to discuss with Eliza is the elongated lock out on Skeleton assist. I believe the longer lockout should stay but would like to see it toned down so that we can use these assist at the end of combos and still DHC. As it stands now you can not add any Skeleton assist to the end of a combo and still DHC to Eliza because of this lock out. I don't believe this is fair to Eliza since she already can not combo from DHC. There are other assist with longer lock outs that still can hit the DHC window. Since the skeleton assist also cost a resource I think its worth discussing.

example
 
I wanted to give my opinion on the changes to Fortune that I’d like to see. There are certain aspects of her offensive kit that are too strong and need to be nerfed. Combine that with weaker defensive options for Head-on and a few changes to encourage better counterplay against the head in neutral and I think she’ll be in a good spot balance wise.

It should be the aim to achieve that without removing major functionality from core tools and her team identity.

I’ll list my nerf ideas in a few categories below with reasoning in spoilers.

Damage:
  • Remove cLK loops
  • Lower headless’ general corner damage by ~300-400 damage
These 2 changes would mean headless’ solo max corner damage off of cLK would drop by ~900 damage (assisted combos using H Beam, H Bubble, etc that enable cLK loops would drop even more). She should still be a high damage character when headless imo, given her glass canon design, but this would take her out of outlier camp.

Ways to target headless’ corner damage specifically would be ground gato damage and decap attack damage. Lowering M Rekka’s damage somewhat is another option.

EDIT: did a bit of number crunching (nerd), and lowering decap damage from 300 to 200 would be enough of a general damage nerf to headless imo. It'd lower general corner damage by ~400 all on its own. Combine that w/something to either remove or make cLK loops not worth it and I think headless corner damage would be fine.
  • Headless’ ground and airthrow should both progress to stage 3
This is to target the max ud 3 touch/vortex. 3 touching off of throws at max ud is broke af and needs to be removed imo.

This change would mean that, instead of doing Throw -> Zoom/Headbutt -> ground string x2 -> 50/50 repeat, you would only get 1 ground string. It should just about halve her max ud throw damage, bringing her more in line with the rest of the cast.
  • Double jump jLK should hit mid while rising
This is to target the L Fiber jLK dj jLK jHK H Gato reset

This starter fundamentally gives a massive boost to Fortune’s reset damage (~1k). You remove this from her reset options and it 1. Makes it way harder to 2 touch with her, especially with the nerfs to headless corner damage and 2. Encourages using other reset points

It’s already a mid if Fortune does idj, so can think of this as an extension of that nerf

Defence:
  • Bring back the previous jumping hurtbox change
  • H Fiber -20 on block
This would make it easier to HCH punish and make it easier to punish when blocked in the air from range
  • Head-on Fibers should be strike invuln only
This would make Fortune a “just throw her” character, with both of her meterless reversals being vulnerable to throws. This would be a pretty big dent to her defence.
  • Rekka x2 -> Head toss loses its invuln (make it the same as Head Toss after CSF)
  • Grounded head toss changed to be -4
Makes it harder for Fortune to abare if it’s blocked.

This move is fine tbh and the changes people are suggesting to it are overkill imo. If the head is fixed to stop breaking combos then the move is just about perfect.

It has 30f startup, no vertical range, loses to throws, leaves Fortune – with fewer defensive options and with the head behind her (so if she gets hit that’s a big chunk of extra damage) and the ground version has little to no usage in neutral outside of being a reversal. The move has already been designed with plenty of negatives to compensate for being a safe DP.
  • sLP is 6f startup
Seems weird for Fortune’s jab to be an outlier at 5f. May as well bring it more in line with other characters.
  • Increased lockout on the head after her supers are blocked.
  • If the final hit of Feral or CSF is blocked (even if it hits something aside from the point) she shouldn’t be able to cancel into a transition attack
You can already get a HCH punish on her supers in just about every scenario. But it may as well be made easier. No need for an unnecessary knowledge-check here.

The head:
  • Fix the head breaking opponent’s combos
  • Widen its horizontal hurtbox in its idle animation.
To encourage hitting the head in neutral + make it easier to hit when the head is behind you.
  • Extend the hurtbox on Zoom to be in line with the hitbox (aka remove the disjoint).
Should make people more willing to try and hit the head in neutral.
  • H Cut should hit the head during Zoom, not projectile clash with it without dealing damage to Fortune
Think this is a bug but it shouldn’t be a thing regardless
  • Decrease Nom’s hitstun animation by ~10%
  • Nom should blue bounce if you let the animation finish
These 2 are to make it a bit harder to land Nom conversions from far away in neutral
  • The 2nd Nom in a combo should put the opponent into an uncombo-able state
This would lower the damage on Nom conversions a good bit
It’s also just a long time to wait and not a fun experience to watch your opponent do Nom -> side switch -> Nom.
  • The head should always fly behind Fortune after Nom
Sometimes it’ll fly in front of her for certain combos.
This makes some combos inconsistent for the Fortune player (gotta learn a midscreen right facing combo and a midscreen left facing combo if you want to do optimal damage).
When the head flies in front, it gives Fortune better combos, resets and pressure.
If it goes behind, Fortune gets worse combos, resets and block pressure and is more at risk if she gets hit by a reversal (cus now the head takes extra damage).

That’s why it should just always fly behind, since it's the weakest option while making combos less inconsistent.



Anyway, those are my ideas. I also just wanted to address a few points people are bringing up that I don’t agree with.

I’ve previously addressed how Fortune’s metergain, while really good, is 1. Not even the highest or most front loaded among the cast (say hi Bella) and 2. Offset by the fact she builds her opponent more meter than almost anyone else.

But straight up, her metergain is not bugged. She just has access to rekkas and all of the characters with rekka specials build good meter. If you prioritise Eliza’s rekka DP in combos, her metergain is comparable to Fortune’s. If you prioritise using Knuckle in Annie combos, she also gets a big metergain bump. Fortune's specials on their own build comparable bar to the rest of the cast's and it’s just that rekka specials inherently give extra meter as they count as multiple moves.

Idk why but this is just a myth that somehow embedded itself in the community.

The fact she also doesn’t spend all that much meter also plays a part in why she often leaves the game with so much bar. Outside of reversal supers and doing super to kill, she doesn’t really spend bar.

Before someone tries to “well ackshually” me, yes I know about CSF oki (I’m one of the, like, 3 people who actually uses it lol) and using Feral to side swap for when you mess up the meterless side swap combos. My point still stands.

Her meterbuild is also just about the only team contribution she gives since she has at least one of the worst assist selections in the game and lacklustre DHCs. Suggestions to dramatically reduce her metergain a) seem unnecessary if she’s to receive major changes elsewhere in her kit, particularly to headless' corner damage, b) make her less unique and c) seem to generally be at least partly based on a mistaken belief that it’s bugged.
Idk why people are suggesting utility nerfs to gato in neutral. The move is good within its niche, sure. But it’s still a niche where the tool has pretty clear counters. The move is used for conversions and changing your jump timing to call out short anti-airs (eg Annie cLP). Adding hurtboxes to it would be a pretty big nerf to that latter use when you can already do: tall anti-airs (eg Eliza sMP), air-to-airs to take advantage of the long startup or just punish the long whiff recovery. And if you block it then it’s a free PB to escape.
I think some of the nerfs suggested are taking things to a pretty drastic extreme. Given the continual discussion about how Double has been “normalised” and the outcry to Annie’s previous set of nerfs that again “normalised” her and made her less fun/unique/etc. It seems rather misguided to then be suggesting removing core functionality from central pieces of Fortune’s kit.

Eg suggesting removing either the ability to jump cancel Fiber or full on removing all of it’s invuln when she has been designed for over a decade around the idea of having a jump cancellable on whiff/hit DP. Similarly, suggesting huge nerfs to her primary team contribution, meterbuild (like really, halving it?).

There are ways to address the character’s problem areas without wholesale removing parts of her identity.
 
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I wanted to give my opinion on the changes to Fortune that I’d like to see. There are certain aspects of her offensive kit that are too strong and need to be nerfed. Combine that with weaker defensive options for Head-on and a few changes to encourage better counterplay against the head in neutral and I think she’ll be in a good spot balance wise.

It should be the aim to achieve that without removing major functionality from core tools and her team identity.

I’ll list my nerf ideas in a few categories below with reasoning in spoilers.

Damage:
  • Remove cLK loops
  • Lower headless’ general corner damage by ~300-400 damage
These 2 changes would mean headless’ solo max corner damage off of cLK would drop by ~900 damage (assisted combos using H Beam, H Bubble, etc that enable cLK loops would drop even more). She should still be a high damage character when headless imo, given her glass canon design, but this would take her out of outlier camp.

Ways to target headless’ corner damage specifically would be ground gato damage and decap attack damage. Lowering M Rekka’s damage somewhat is another option.
  • Headless’ ground and airthrow should both progress to stage 3
This is to target the max ud 3 touch/vortex. 3 touching off of throws at max ud is broke af and needs to be removed imo.

This change would mean that, instead of doing Throw -> Zoom/Headbutt -> ground string x2 -> 50/50 repeat, you would only get 1 ground string. It should just about halve her max ud throw damage, bringing her more in line with the rest of the cast.
  • Double jump jLK should hit mid while rising
This is to target the L Fiber jLK dj jLK jHK H Gato reset

This starter fundamentally gives a massive boost to Fortune’s reset damage (~1k). You remove this from her reset options and it 1. Makes it way harder to 2 touch with her, especially with the nerfs to headless corner damage and 2. Encourages using other reset points

It’s already a mid if Fortune does idj, so can think of this as an extension of that nerf

Defence:
  • Bring back the previous jumping hurtbox change
  • H Fiber -20 on block
This would make it easier to HCH punish and make it easier to punish when blocked in the air from range
  • Head-on Fibers should be strike invuln only
This would make Fortune a “just throw her” character, with both of her meterless reversals being vulnerable to throws. This would be a pretty big dent to her defence.
  • Rekka x2 -> Head toss loses its invuln (make it the same as Head Toss after CSF)
  • Grounded head toss changed to be -4
Makes it harder for Fortune to abare if it’s blocked.

This move is fine tbh and the changes people are suggesting to it are overkill imo. If the head is fixed to stop breaking combos then the move is just about perfect.

It has 30f startup, no vertical range, loses to throws, leaves Fortune – with fewer defensive options and with the head behind her (so if she gets hit that’s a big chunk of extra damage) and the ground version has little to no usage in neutral outside of being a reversal. The move has already been designed with plenty of negatives to compensate for being a safe DP.
  • sLP is 6f startup
Seems weird for Fortune’s jab to be an outlier at 5f. May as well bring it more in line with other characters.
  • Increased lockout on the head after her supers are blocked.
  • If the final hit of Feral or CSF is blocked (even if it hits something aside from the point) she shouldn’t be able to cancel into a transition attack
You can already get a HCH punish on her supers in just about every scenario. But it may as well be made easier. No need for an unnecessary knowledge-check here.

The head:
  • Fix the head breaking opponent’s combos
  • Widen its horizontal hurtbox in its idle animation.
To encourage hitting the head in neutral + make it easier to hit when the head is behind you.
  • Extend the hurtbox on Zoom to be in line with the hitbox (aka remove the disjoint).
Should make people more willing to try and hit the head in neutral.
  • H Cut should hit the head during Zoom, not projectile clash with it without dealing damage to Fortune
Think this is a bug but it shouldn’t be a thing regardless
  • Decrease Nom’s hitstun animation by ~10%
  • Nom should blue bounce if you let the animation finish
These 2 are to make it a bit harder to land Nom conversions from far away in neutral
  • The 2nd Nom in a combo should put the opponent into an uncombo-able state
This would lower the damage on Nom conversions a good bit
It’s also just a long time to wait and not a fun experience to watch your opponent do Nom -> side switch -> Nom.
  • The head should always fly behind Fortune after Nom
Sometimes it’ll fly in front of her for certain combos.
This makes some combos inconsistent for the Fortune player (gotta learn a midscreen right facing combo and a midscreen left facing combo if you want to do optimal damage).
When the head flies in front, it gives Fortune better combos, resets and pressure.
If it goes behind, Fortune gets worse combos, resets and block pressure and is more at risk if she gets hit by a reversal (cus now the head takes extra damage).

That’s why it should just always fly behind, since it's the weakest option while making combos less inconsistent.



Anyway, those are my ideas. I also just wanted to address a few points people are bringing up that I don’t agree with.

I’ve previously addressed how Fortune’s metergain, while really good, is 1. Not even the highest or most front loaded among the cast (say hi Bella) and 2. Offset by the fact she builds her opponent more meter than almost anyone else.

But straight up, her metergain is not bugged. She just has access to rekkas and all of the characters with rekka specials build good meter. If you prioritise Eliza’s rekka DP in combos, her metergain is comparable to Fortune’s. If you prioritise using Knuckle in Annie combos, she also gets a big metergain bump. Fortune's specials on their own build comparable bar to the rest of the cast's and it’s just that rekka specials inherently give extra meter as they count as multiple moves.

Idk why but this is just a myth that somehow embedded itself in the community.

The fact she also doesn’t spend all that much meter also plays a part in why she often leaves the game with so much bar. Outside of reversal supers and doing super to kill, she doesn’t really spend bar.

Before someone tries to “well ackshually” me, yes I know about CSF oki (I’m one of the, like, 3 people who actually uses it lol) and using Feral to side swap for when you mess up the meterless side swap combos. My point still stands.

Her meterbuild is also just about the only team contribution she gives since she has at least one of the worst assist selections in the game and lacklustre DHCs. Suggestions to dramatically reduce her metergain a) seem unnecessary if she’s to receive major changes elsewhere in her kit, particularly to headless' corner damage, b) make her less unique and c) seem to generally be at least partly based on a mistaken belief that it’s bugged.
Idk why people are suggesting utility nerfs to gato in neutral. The move is good within its niche, sure. But it’s still a niche where the tool has pretty clear counters. The move is used for conversions and changing your jump timing to call out short anti-airs (eg Annie cLP). Adding hurtboxes to it would be a pretty big nerf to that latter use when you can already do: tall anti-airs (eg Eliza sMP), air-to-airs to take advantage of the long startup or just punish the long whiff recovery. And if you block it then it’s a free PB to escape.
I think some of the nerfs suggested are taking things to a pretty drastic extreme. Given the continual discussion about how Double has been “normalised” and the outcry to Annie’s previous set of nerfs that again “normalised” her and made her less fun/unique/etc. It seems rather misguided to then be suggesting removing core functionality from central pieces of Fortune’s kit.

Eg suggesting removing either the ability to jump cancel Fiber or full on removing all of it’s invuln when she has been designed for over a decade around the idea of having a jump cancellable on whiff/hit DP. Similarly, suggesting huge nerfs to her primary team contribution, meterbuild (like really, halving it?).

There are ways to address the character’s problem areas without wholesale removing parts of her identity.
Great suggestions. I agree with all of this except the 6f 5lp. I think rushdown characters in fighting games having good, fast jabs is just kind of par for the course, and this change won't be needed if other changes get implemented. j.LK is a much bigger issue than 5lp is, and people have already made some great suggestions on how to normalize it. Filia/Fortune having 5lp is part of their kit that should just get to be good because of the type of character they are.

Also, I cannot stress this enough, from a code perspective, Ms Fortune's meter gain is not any higher than anyone else's, she just builds more because its a byproduct of being a rekka character. Lex is 100% right about this.

Regarding cr.lk loops, imo, increasing 2lks hitbox and ALSO increasing Fortune throw scaling to stage 3 as Lex suggested will do a lot to kill how good loops are before any major undizzy reworks, whether they happen or not. You might be able to get like, 2 or 3 on lights, but it will be hard and probably won't be worth doing for the amount of meter you're loading your opponent. The Robo beam nerf, regardless of what it looks like when it wis finalized, is also another big hit to to the loops.
 
I’ve previously addressed how Fortune’s metergain, while really good, is 1. Not even the highest or most front loaded among the cast (say hi Bella) and 2. Offset by the fact she builds her opponent more meter than almost anyone else.

But straight up, her metergain is not bugged. She just has access to rekkas and all of the characters with rekka specials build good meter. If you prioritise Eliza’s rekka DP in combos, her metergain is comparable to Fortune’s. If you prioritise using Knuckle in Annie combos, she also gets a big metergain bump. Fortune's specials on their own build comparable bar to the rest of the cast's and it’s just that rekka specials inherently give extra meter as they count as multiple moves.

Idk why but this is just a myth that somehow embedded itself in the community.

https://skullheart.com/threads/possible-glitch-for-ms-fortune.4061/post-138997

Some history for you
 
I have tested this before, and have once again tested it and even made a doc just to show proof because it was brought up again. You can also do this yourself with a calculator and some math if you want to (multiply the meter gained on that hit by 100 then divide by 9, since all of her specials gain 9% besides second hit of headroll/cat spike), since the game shows us the meter gained in the combo and you don't need a tool (do note that the game will round).

She is building the correct amount of meter on her moves. So unless we somehow find the intended amount of meter she was SUPPOSED to build on her specials, this is, as far as we can tell at this point, Mike putting the wrong number on accident, calling it a bug, and just letting it rock.

Edit: If we want to assume he was literal by it being 3-4 times than she should be getting (2.25%-3%), then it feels absurd to have let it rock all these years (considering it has been said to have been known for just as long) until now becauae she is getting optimized.
 
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I wouldn't put it past him to have done just that. Keep in mind Fortune was a character with almost no representation at majors here from that point until the 2017 patch so at the time it didn't seem like something worth changing.